75 replies to this topic

[XX Sulla XX]

Yes Victors now slow down when using jump jets to turn. You will turn faster by not using jump jets. That was the biggest nurf to agility.

[DONTOR]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 March 2014 - 01:05 PM, said:

Haven't fully unlocked them, but while La Malinche moves similar to a BLR, I find the others feel like a Stalker, in fact, I think against Light Mechs, I would prefer the Stalker.

Ya... my 4AC2s hate light mechs, unless they are already hurt that is.

[Cimarb]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 March 2014 - 01:02 PM, said:

Front loaded damage is also not the issue. Having differing damage mechanics is a good thing. It's having multiple different weapons hitting one location with all the front loaded damage from those multiple weapons. A PPC or AC20 SHOULD do big damage, to one area. You certainly pay the Weight and or Heat (which also usually means more weight in DHS) to carry those weapons.

Yet few people cry about an Atlas nailing them with their ac20 or Gauss. If front loaded damage was the problem, this would not be true. People DO complain about BoomJagers landing TWO ac20 shots to the exact same location, while running. Or 4 PPCs hitting in perfect unison.

AKA, the issue is NOT front loaded damage anymore than it is heatsinks. It is, and always has been, as stated, convergence and unlimited hardpoints.

I am for differing damage mechanics, but no one mechanic should be drastically better than the others. Weight for weight, heat for heat, front-loaded damage (FLD) is immensely better that neither spread or duration weapons. For instance, if lasers were changed to FLD, they would immediately become the best weapons in the current game, with no other changes.

On the other hand, if ACs were changed to burst fire (implementing their damage in 0.2-0.5 seconds instead of instantly), they would be brought on par with lasers/missiles/etc and could then be stripped of the arbitrary ghost heat mechanics that were used to balance a weapon system that was supposed to be the most heat efficient type (ballistics).

Then you would have ballistics that were heavier and required ammo, but had little to no heat cost, energy that were lighter and required no ammo but had a high heat cost, and missiles that fell right in the middle with medium weight, ammo and heat costs. That is how they should be balanced.

People cry about massed weapons because they are massed. You don't complain (much) about a headache, but when combined with a sore throat and diarrhea, you are now visiting the doctor. He doesn't just give you two aspirin, as that would only fix the one symptom. Instead, he finds the root cause of all three and then gives you medicine that fixes the flu you have. Likewise, massed weapons on a Victor that all deliver front-loaded, converged damage (2PPC+AC20, for instance) are the symptoms. Remove jump jets and you still have a problem, albeit you can now return fire on them easier. Remove convergence and you still have a problem, but you at least get some of the damage in different sections IF you are far enough away for that to matter and they are alpha striking. Remove front-loaded damage, though, and you have now greatly lessened the advantage of jump sniping, as they cannot deliver the damage instantly during the jump, and you have also made it immensely easier to prevent them from delivering all of that damage in the same spot by torso twisting and moving yourself.

[Monky]

Hopped into mine and am doing reasonably well. My performance has taken a slight hit, down from 3-4 kills on a decent round to 2-3 and have to be more aware of cover and sticking near friendlies. In my book, that's a good thing as Victor was so easy I didn't enjoy playing it before.

[Nathaniel Kell]

So I guess I'm on board with it.

PGI: "You can have your poptarts, but you will pay dearly if a brawler gets too close"

[NautilusCommand]

Monky, on 18 March 2014 - 01:26 PM, said:

Hopped into mine and am doing reasonably well. My performance has taken a slight hit, down from 3-4 kills on a decent round to 2-3 and have to be more aware of cover and sticking near friendlies. In my book, that's a good thing as Victor was so easy I didn't enjoy playing it before.

2EZPZ4me.

[XX Sulla XX]

Quote

PGI: "You can have your poptarts, but you will pay dearly if a brawler gets too close"

Then they should have left the Victor brawler alone and done something to the Victor poptarts.

[Nathaniel Kell]

XX Sulla XX, on 18 March 2014 - 02:00 PM, said:

Then they should have left the Victor brawler alone and done something to the Victor poptarts.

I haven't seen a Victor brawler in a long while... but I see your point.

[NautilusCommand]

Nathaniel Kell, on 18 March 2014 - 02:02 PM, said:

I haven't seen a Victor brawler in a long while... but I see your point.

1x AC20, 2xLarge Laser , and 2x SSRM 2s.
I loved that build, but not now.

[Nathaniel Kell]

Well, it still has it's speed. Speed+JJ still gives it the ability to traverse terrain easily, which is one of its best qualities anyway.

[Macksheen]

That is pretty much what I ran on mine, or very close to it.

I suspect my STK-3F is now the better brawler.

Regardless, I've long preferred mediums - in this and every other game way back to TT - so not to put off by this.

[Damocles69]

about a 330 engine gets em to acceptable level of nimbleness

most DS builds will probably look like this

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...240f5d4caabf5ce

forces an XL so they are highly less survivable. anything less than a 330 and your better off with a 733C

[Curccu]

Played 1 game in my Victor so far and that nerf didn't affect my playing really.

[Koniving]

DONTOR, on 18 March 2014 - 12:42 PM, said:

Im not a poptarter myself but nerfing the arm movement could make reflexive shots / snapshots more difficult, im not sure if 10% is even very noticeable or not, Ill have to give it a try. As for decreasing torso speed it just makes the Victor as a whole worse upclose which doesnt seem like a big deal given how insanely good it was upclose. I use my Victors as fast highly armored brawlers and I dont think the changes will hurt them too much. I think it will just make them less effective against lights or fast mediums.

Truth be told, the right arm shouldn't be aiming left or right to begin with on most of the Victors due to the lack of an lower arm actuator. They should be akin to the Yen Lo Wang in that regard.

But... a logical and appropriate nerf like that? Hard to expect from PGI.

Though I agree, this doesn't affect them as brawlers. Just prevents them from that instant U-turn they could do.

[Void Angel]

FupDup, on 18 March 2014 - 12:55 PM, said:

If assaults in general seem too agile...why not do a pass of the entire weight class? Addressing them one at a time reeks of whack-a-mole balancing. "Oh hey, this one mech here is starting to become an issue, let's nerf him and him alone without examining the core gameplay mechanics behind it."

An agility nerf probably has little effect when you're bunny hopping behind a rock, but in a brawl--that tactic we should be trying to encourage--it'll probably hurt quite a bit. The nerf gun has missed its target once again.

Or it could be that they're looking at demographic data and internal testing to come up with a rational reason to target specific chassis - which makes sense, since the chassis base characteristics are also set individually. Looking at the Victors on Smurfy, with a 375 Engine they twist at 75 deg/sec, while the Battlemaster twists 88/second (unless you're the G, because PGI hates laser boats, but that's a quirk.) By comparison, the Hidelander 733P at max engine rating only twists 65 deg/sec, and the Banshee is rated at 78/second with a 375 rated engine.

What it looks like to me is that they expect you to use your jump jets to compensate for that twist rate - it may be a bit too much of a nerf, but we'll need to fully adapt our piloting practices to the new characteristics before anyone can say so with certainty.

[XX Sulla XX]

I always run something like a AC20, 3 SRM6s and a couple of lasers and an XL360 with 4 jump jets It made a huge difference to how the mech plays now. It is much harder to spread damage and much harder to make people miss. If you were playing a slow victor brawler with 1 or 2 jump jets to get over rocks you will not notice a huge difference.

Quote

What it looks like to me is that they expect you to use your jump jets to compensate for that twist rate - it may be a bit too much of a nerf, but we'll need to fully adapt our piloting practices to the new characteristics before anyone can say so with certainty.

Jump jets turn slower than the normal turn rate of the mech now. As soon as you get in the air your turn rate goes down to I think 70% or normal turn rate. So they still work fine for poptarting not so much for brawling.

[Zolaz]

Cimarb, on 18 March 2014 - 01:03 PM, said:

Also, while I am all for brawlers, as they make sniping and LRM boating immensely more rewarding for me, saying that is what we should be encouraging is incorrect. In no way would any organized military encourage urban or "brawling" type of combat. You deliver the most effective damage at the greatest range possible to eliminate the threat before they are capable of returning that damage. Snipers, artillery, air support, and long range missiles are all the first option for any military operation. Only once the majority of the opposition has been suppressed do you even consider sending in your ground troops to clean up and occupy the area. This isn't fight club, this is war.

I suggest you wait awhile in your game to brawl. Otherwise you are just running in to die.

[Josef Nader]

It didn't hurt pop tarts in their comfort zone, but niw my fast mediums stand a chance of getting in on the pop tart and outmaneuvering him, whereas before the Victor and Highlander could comfortably keep me in front of them.

[Cimarb]

Zolaz, on 18 March 2014 - 02:56 PM, said:

I suggest you wait awhile in your game to brawl. Otherwise you are just running in to die.

I rarely brawl, as I like to live long enough to run out of ammo

[C E Dwyer]

Its called pgi screw up again.

Snipers still snipe, lurms got a buff, brawlers got hammered with the agility nerf, when due to PGI inability to fix SRMs, brawling was all ready though enough, there is less and less reason to play this game.

more is broken than fixed

PGI are seriously clueless to risk and reward, changing the balance to make it harder for the front line to do anything but die,

Ac20 nerf, srms not fixed after a year, jump jets nerfed because the customisation system is to open, making poptarts a viable,now agilty removed.

this is wallet closed time until brawler are made viable