35 replies to this topic

[Lyoto Machida]

HammerSwarm, on 19 March 2014 - 08:06 AM, said:

Could not disagree more. They are the only weapon system that requires teamwork to function. While I am locking on a target and firing from the back my team has to be locking targets and engaging who I am shooting at. The damage value properly reflects that these weapons require teamwork.

That's actually untrue...you can play them like a brawler from relatively close up (obviously not below 180m).

Kinda takes away from the name of the weapon though...

[Osric Lancaster]

trollocaustic, on 19 March 2014 - 07:20 AM, said:

Hey, I didn't intend to get hooked on the game at that point.

Fair 'nuf, I'll try and keep to the topic at hand then;

Ryvucz, on 18 March 2014 - 12:58 PM, said:

*snip*

Ryvucz, can you modify your poll to include my suggestion? I know it's your rodeo, but I think softening missiles in an indirect role is a good approach and we really don't need -another- suggestion thread on LRMs.

Corbon Zackery, on 19 March 2014 - 08:29 AM, said:

Its the dumbest weapon in the game because you point, lock and shoot.

Which is different from direct fire weapons. . . how? You just exchange "get and hold a lock" with "lead your target", and LRMs force you to keep looking at your target to maintain that lock in a direct fire role.

Keep in mind that a 5 ton LRM 15 + 2 tons of ammo will, when fired into one AMS, do a bit more damage than a 7 ton PPC at lower heat. The trade off for that is that you get next to no ammo, the damage will be rather unfocused and stacked AMS will eat your damage. Sure you have to lead a target with direct fire weapons, but missile pathing will wreck your damage if you don't angle yourself to hit enemies around terrain.

The only time LRMs get too powerful is when you have an absolute unholy f'k ton of them firing from multiple sources indirectly on a single target. That can overwhelm AMS and is a bit harsh if you can't find the spotter. If you're taking massed 'direct' lrm fire you've f'ked up, same as massed direct fire with any other weapon.

Edited by Osric Lancaster, 19 March 2014 - 12:17 PM.

[trollocaustic]

Because, Direct fire involvles 3 elements that lock on autoshooting does not

1: Risk, you need a straight line between your gun and the target
2: Leading, you need to actually calculate where you should shoot, not just hold on them for a few seconds, then shoot auto-aimed rounds
3: Fairness, the target can see you, and imediately retaliate with whatever weapon he has, or if he does not have long-range weaponry, he can get behind cover, which is far more common for direct fire than for artillery.

[Col Jaime Wolf]

Ryvucz, on 18 March 2014 - 12:58 PM, said:

Now that the LRMs fly crazy fast, instead of launching every missile in a pod at once, how about staggering the launch times of each missile by a few tenths of a second to allow AMS to function properly and also be more in-line with all other MechWarrior titles (and simulators).

no and no please. there is no problem with LRMS other then being stuck on the team that doesn't hold locks for you. they should move faster in my opinion and have a slightly longer reload time.

[KevinRuddPM]

Since the speed increase, gameplay has just been ridiculous. Just about every game now has seen both sides spam the hell out of LRMS so it makes brawling downright impossible as you try to fight but are getting pummelled left, right and centre.

I think the issue is not with the LRM's themselves, but access to them. The main offenders are the stalkers, especially that trial stalker that is loaded to the teeth with LRMS. Noob players can come in, no experience, lock and fire and rinse and repeat. No skill needed. If they change this particular mech, along with limiting the amount of assaults and heavies in the matchmaking that is coming in the launch module, I think the game balance will improve dramatically.

As for the pro-LRM guys that say take cover, use ECM or AMS -

Cover is not always available, especially in open maps.
ECM is restricted to mechs and therefore matchmaking will play a hand in this
AMS I try to get into my mechs but it only slightly lessens the pummelling.

[Osric Lancaster]

trollocaustic, on 19 March 2014 - 12:20 PM, said:

Because, Direct fire involvles 3 elements that lock on autoshooting does not

1: Risk - If you don't have LOS, someone else is taking this for you.
2: Leading - You don't need to lead with lasers. You *barely* need to lead with Gauss or the low caliber auto-cannons, and then only if you're target's running. (see: going for cover.)
3: Fairness - Follow the LRM rainbow! And yes, cover blocks missiles too. Surprising, I know!
4: You can't hill snipe LRMs and then move out of line of sight if you don't have a spotter. Lock must be maintained the entire flight time or you will miss.
5: Missiles are target committed. If a higher priority target moves on you, you have to either take them with secondary weapons or abandon your lock on the first target.

KevinRuddPM, on 19 March 2014 - 02:31 PM, said:

Cover is not always available, especially in open maps.

As a rookie with one post and an account made a little over two weeks ago, I'm guessing you're in a bad place in the Elo. Trial 'Mechs aren't equipped with AMS, and you haven't got any 'Mechs with speed tweak. What 'Mechs do you have?

[Xenok]

This is a bad idea. That would break LRMs badly.

They (PGI) are, I think, attempting to provide a counter to jump sniping. If that is the case then they need to slow them down some again and have jump jets have the down side of allowing anyone who achieves a lock on you maintain that lock for 60 seconds after jump jets are used, reguardless of your position or ECM. That would allow missiles to effectively counter the jump snipers if that was there goal.

[Kjudoon]

trollocaustic, on 19 March 2014 - 12:20 PM, said:

Because, Direct fire involvles 3 elements that lock on autoshooting does not

1: Risk, you need a straight line between your gun and the target
2: Leading, you need to actually calculate where you should shoot, not just hold on them for a few seconds, then shoot auto-aimed rounds
3: Fairness, the target can see you, and imediately retaliate with whatever weapon he has, or if he does not have long-range weaponry, he can get behind cover, which is far more common for direct fire than for artillery.

1. Risk: How risky is it for an ECM scout to get LOS with NARC or TAG on someone? Not that risky if you compare it to a slow heavy LRMboat getting it. So Risk... meh. minimal for that scout.

2. Leading: No, we don't have "leading" per sey. We have to 'maintain lock' which is the inverse of leading and for a lot longer. Break lock, miss shot and there are so many variables that can help break it as well as prevent you from getting lock. I've sat there at times trying to get lock at 500m with TAG on an ECM atlas for 30 seconds without achieving lock. How they did not see me, I've no idea, but when I got lock and fired, THEN they noticed me and I lost lock and missed. So much for 'no risk' either.

3. Fairness? FAIRNESS? Really? How fair is a meta build poptart? puhleeze! There is no 'fairness' in real combat either. You win or you die. If you want this silly honor duel crap, you're playing the wrong game with the wrong people. You aren't a gladiator, and this is not supposed to be the grand colluseum with cheering throngs and adoring fans.

Please uninstall.

Edited by Kjudoon, 19 March 2014 - 07:19 PM.

[KevinRuddPM]

Osric Lancaster, on 19 March 2014 - 03:35 PM, said:

As a rookie with one post and an account made a little over two weeks ago, I'm guessing you're in a bad place in the Elo. Trial 'Mechs aren't equipped with AMS, and you haven't got any 'Mechs with speed tweak. What 'Mechs do you have?

Haven't been playing THIS game for very long but no stranger to the combat and simulation. I've also had my share of games where those responsible for the spamming are piloting the trial mech stalkers, even before the patch. Being a 'rookie', I know how a rookie thinks. I was guilty of getting into the stalker for the first time, getting 700+ damage by spamming LRMS and thinking 'This is a great mech, and so easy!'.
I moved onto the TDR-5S which is now elite status, I bought the pretty baby and recently got the firestarter FS9-H. So I've played it enough to upgrade 4 mechs, which is long enough to see much spamming, which doesn't just annoy me but other players in the game on both sides.

[Osric Lancaster]

KevinRuddPM, on 19 March 2014 - 07:51 PM, said:

Being a 'rookie', I know how a rookie thinks. I was guilty of getting into the stalker for the first time, getting 700+ damage by spamming LRMS and thinking 'This is a great mech, and so easy!'.

Higher damage does not mean higher success. It's easy to think that way! But there's a key distinction here that makes weapons like the LB 10-X such attractive weapon to new players, even though they're demonstrably garbage:

Killing a 'Mech means doing enough focused damage to a specific section or sections to destroy a 'Mech. Damage done to any other section but the sections by which a 'Mech was destroyed, that did not cripple or disarm said 'Mech, represent a lost opportunity cost.

The perfectly executed kill, a cockpit shot, needs only take 19 damage, something you can't really pull off with the LB-10X or missiles. A perfect game does not involve a huge damage score.

The firestarter is good for backstabbing, but it's worth learning to hold your damage on one section of a 'Mech rather than sweeping shots. It runs hot so a cheapo cool shot is worth having on it while you master it. The Ember is a good compromise in heat if you go for that. Medium lasers are obviously your bread and butter, but a single flamer can work well as obscuration, if not as. . . actual weaponry. Jinking in and out of line of sight is easy once you get in a large XL engine on the starter. The thunderbolt works better hanging back in the center of a group and laying down cover fire for brawlers, if not itself brawling. Try to pick out and keep in mind points of cover you can reach if you get an LRM klaxon, and try to make note of where the missiles are coming from.

[Ryvucz]

Osric Lancaster, on 19 March 2014 - 12:14 PM, said:

Ryvucz, can you modify your poll to include my suggestion? I know it's your rodeo, but I think softening missiles in an indirect role is a good approach and we really don't need -another- suggestion thread on LRMs.

Added, sorry for the delay.

[Osric Lancaster]

Ryvucz, on 19 March 2014 - 10:12 PM, said:

Added, sorry for the delay.

Awesome, much obliged. . . Now watch no one vote for it so I feel I've properly wasted your time.

[KevinRuddPM]

Osric Lancaster, on 19 March 2014 - 09:02 PM, said:

The firestarter is good for backstabbing, but it's worth learning to hold your damage on one section of a 'Mech.

I'm getting the hang of where the mechs I have are meant to be in a team. When I started brawling with the TDR I would lose my left arm quickly which housed my AC2 & 5. I'm also finding that harrassing and distracting in the firestarter is much better than scouting and trying to get kills (sounds noob, but yeah you forget sometimes you are in a light mech and just wanna keep shooting), the current loadout on that is machine guns and MLs but double heat sinks help alot on that one.

The point about the LRM and the 700 damage was that when new players come in, hammer out all this damage in the trial Stalker, think it's easy, then do it again. That's why I think it's a huge part of why LRM's get spammed in a game. The last game I played had 5 stalkers in it, all spamming, even though we had ECM and AMS we still got pinned down and hammered.

[Osric Lancaster]

KevinRuddPM, on 20 March 2014 - 01:02 PM, said:

The point about the LRM and the 700 damage was that when new players come in, hammer out all this damage in the trial Stalker, think it's easy, then do it again.

New players also do it because they care more about making money than being effective. The way rewards are set up, doing a lot of spread out damage and getting assists by hosing LRMs around is a good way to rake in cash against inexperienced opponents and especially trial 'Mechs without ams. Since you have a Firestarter now you can take advantage of this by grabbing a few light pilots at the start of each match, then picking your way around to the rear of the enemy formation and shooting out those stalker side torsos out.

KevinRuddPM, on 20 March 2014 - 01:02 PM, said:

The last game I played had 5 stalkers in it, all spamming, even though we had ECM and AMS we still got pinned down and hammered.

You have a decent grasp of the game so it sounds like either your ECM boats weren't covering your team, or the enemy had a phenomenal group of spotters? Also remember that being 'pinned down' can be the same as 'waiting in ambush' as long as you have a like minded friendly or two with you. If you're hiding in cover from the LRMs and they keep coming then stand still, let them waste ammo on rocks and buildings and look for the spotter to shoot.

[Solis Obscuri]

I'm inclined to agree with Osric. I think that the speed increase (finally) puts LRMs in a good position of being viable for fire support with line-of-sight, but altering the indirect-fire spread would place a greater importance on the scouting role and the value in providing Narc/TAG spotting for scout and skirmisher units. I also think that the rewards for spotting and target designation with Narc/TAG are still a little too low.

[Satan n stuff]

Kjudoon, on 18 March 2014 - 03:54 PM, said:

Actually, most LRM pilots I know and talk to have similar stats for their launchers. Very few manage the high 30s, and none seem to maintain over 40%..

I checked my archived stats just for this, and calculating it based on the total number of shots fired and total number of hits I have a 43.3% hitrate with LRMs. That's after having fired 63.135 LRMs since those stats were being tracked.