40 replies to this topic

[Carrioncrows]

LRM's should not be able to lock on and fire at targets indirectly....Unless the target is hit with a NARC, UAV or being hit with a TAG.

Then you can tweak LRM Speed, Dmg and Spread and crank it up.

This solves all issues with LRM including LRM5 and 10 being useless unless you boat them.

It also creates something we have wanted from the beginning. "ROLE WARFARE"

Now there would be a point to lights outside of slapping the biggest engine and biggest guns on it.

Edited by Carrioncrows, 19 March 2014 - 01:24 AM.

[SilverStarDragon]

When you say "LRM's should not be able to lock on and fire at targets indirectly", do you mean cancel out dead-firing the lrms (like how ssrms just beep if you have no lock) or allies can't provide locks over blocked terrain/hidden enemies?

Being able to dead-fire LRMs works against ecm cloaked mechs who are standing still...and making LRM locks only available with tag/narc would make the weapon pretty much useless, like lasers/ballistics can reach a long way nearly instantly so saying you have to stand in their path kind of removes the style of the weapon.

Longer aim requirements/wait=more accuracy but also enemy escape time, if you put another restriction, LRMs become useless pretty much as the other two weapon groups could cripple the mech before it can even get a lock...
Also, the same would have to be applied to ssrms as they are 'auto-aim' as well.

[Novakaine]

NO.

[Roland]

Yes, this would likely make lrms far easier to balance correctly.

[PenitentTangent]

Terribad idea. lurms are a very gimped weapon system atm. They are certainly usable, unlike srms, but they certainly aren't as useful as other weapon systems. The only nerf that I think is worth it for lrms is increase the spread of the missiles when fired indirectly.

EDIT: eh, maybe drop the flight speed to about 150m/s.... 175m/s is a bit fast.

Edited by PenitentTangent, 18 March 2014 - 06:14 PM.

[Carrioncrows]

PenitentTangent, on 18 March 2014 - 05:59 PM, said:

Terribad idea. lurms are a very gimped weapon system atm. They are certainly usable, unlike srms, but they certainly aren't as useful as other weapon systems. The only nerf that I think is worth it for lrms is increase the spread of the missiles when fired indirectly.

EDIT: eh, maybe drop the flight speed to about 150m/s.... 175m/s is a bit fast.

LRM's are exceptionally hard to balance because of the system they have set up. They have literally no room to adjust things with out taking them from worthless to overpowered.

By removing the ability to indirect fire -Lock on to targets you do not have LOS to and fire, outside of Narc, Tag and UAV - they become a massively overpowered when you do any sort of buff to the LRMs

Like today for instance, we sped up the LRM's and any Tom, Rick and Harry packs LRM's and even briefly exposed mechs get hammered with 200-300 lrm's before able to return to cover.

Even now with LRM speed increase it is still worthless to pack a single LRM5 or LRM10. You have to boat or go home.

By Removing the ability to fire indirectly outside of Narc, Tag and UAV you can THEN increase the speed of LRM's, up to 300 m/s, increase the damage and spread.

At 300 m/s deadfire is a bit more accurate for hip shots.

With the above pure artillery mechs will be a lot less practical because you need LOS or you need a Teammate to call shots with Tag, Narc, UAV.

Devastating? Sure, what isn't in direct fire?

But you will also see people build towards a more balanced mechs not rely'n solely on LRM's for damage.

I have been preaching this change for a year!

It is nothing new on my part and has always been an issue with LRM's, always. And when you buff LRM's it becomes a lot more apparent like it is today.

Edited by Carrioncrows, 19 March 2014 - 01:23 AM.

[Roland]

PenitentTangent, on 18 March 2014 - 05:59 PM, said:

Terribad idea. lurms are a very gimped weapon system atm. They are certainly usable, unlike srms, but they certainly aren't as useful as other weapon systems. The only nerf that I think is worth it for lrms is increase the spread of the missiles when fired indirectly.

EDIT: eh, maybe drop the flight speed to about 150m/s.... 175m/s is a bit fast.

I think some folks who love their LRM's don't really understand what the point of this thread's suggestion is.

It's not simply a nerf to LRM's.

Removing the indirect fire would allow you to balance them in a much more controlled manner. Thus, the end result wouldn't be simply removing indirect fire, but more likely involve removing indirect fire, while buffing them in other instances.

For instance, LRM's in MW4 only had indirect fire.. but they also didn't stop tracking if you lost lock. You only needed to get a lock fire them, and then the missiles did the work.. Which meant that an LRM boat, even when directly targeting a mech, didn't need to just stand there staring at him.

It put LRM's more in line with other weapons, making them much more balanced.

In MWO, the problem with LRM's is that they tend to swing wildly between "total garbage" and "rain of death from above". And it largely hinges on the fact that you can fire them without exposing yourself at all.

[Carrioncrows]

Roland, on 18 March 2014 - 07:04 PM, said:

I think some folks who love their LRM's don't really understand what the point of this thread's suggestion is.

It's not simply a nerf to LRM's.

Removing the indirect fire would allow you to balance them in a much more controlled manner. Thus, the end result wouldn't be simply removing indirect fire, but more likely involve removing indirect fire, while buffing them in other instances.

For instance, LRM's in MW4 only had indirect fire.. but they also didn't stop tracking if you lost lock. You only needed to get a lock fire them, and then the missiles did the work.. Which meant that an LRM boat, even when directly targeting a mech, didn't need to just stand there staring at him.

It put LRM's more in line with other weapons, making them much more balanced.

In MWO, the problem with LRM's is that they tend to swing wildly between "total garbage" and "rain of death from above". And it largely hinges on the fact that you can fire them without exposing yourself at all.

Exactly.

But also, by limited indirect fire outside of Tag, Narc and UAV you now give light mechs a purpose outside of "Cram as big of an engine and as many weapons as you can" mentality.

Now light mech can be built specifically to spot for teammates and thus get a much bigger reward and pay off for doing so.

A little more team orientated than simply pushing "R"

Edited by Carrioncrows, 18 March 2014 - 07:30 PM.

[Miken]

Increase lock time for indirect fire by 3 times should be enough

[InRev]

Although I'm definitely more pro-lrm vs anti-lrm (don't use them myself, but I like weapon diversity), I actually really like this idea. A buff to missile speed would make them better for direct fire and requiring TAG or NARC for indirect fire sounds like a form of *gasp* Role Warfare!

[Fooooo]

Even tho there are a few ways to re-do lrm mechanics, I think this is probably the neatest and fastest.

I would be behind something like this for sure, especially with the tag / narc / uav required for indirect lock & fire.

It does more than just help make it easier to balance lrm's, it increases the usefulness of lighter mechs using tag / narc or a uav etc.



I'd maybe add.............

If a scout has targeted someone and kept within X range of the recticle (SSRM mechanics) without any los breaks etc for X amount of time, the mechanics we have now open up etc.

So you would have to be exposed at least a little for a decent amount of time, meaning the enemy was also exposed to you but oblivious. (or for some reason couldnt kill a slow moving light....as to hold on target while circliing would not be that easy if you tighten the SSRM mechanics to require the pointer on the mech at all times etc....no leeway.... )



Anyway, carrions idea seems like a good idea to me so thumbs up from me.

[Lyoto Machida]

Carrioncrows, on 18 March 2014 - 03:24 PM, said:

LRM's should not be able to lock on and fire at targets indirectly....Unless the target is hit with a NARC or being hit with a TAG.

Then you can tweak LRM Speed, Dmg and Spread and crank it up.

This solves all issues with LRM including LRM5 and 10 being useless unless you boat them.

As an ardent enthusiast of LRM use, I support this completely. I do most of my LRM damage at ranges of 250-400m with direct fire/TAG so it wouldn't affect me anyways but I agree that it would help with role warfare and make using those add-ons worth more.

Also, when the clans come out...no indirect fire option for them at all (to fit their philosophy in lore). Should also disallow them from targeting an enemy that has already been targeted...negative honor points or whatever for firing on a mech already engaged by another Clanner. They'd have to let the Clan mechs be overpowered like they're supposed to and use numerical inferiority thing for this to be fair though.

ECM would also be less of an issue as well, since you can dumbfire with low arc and greater speed. I'm all for this.

[Carrioncrows]

Miken, on 18 March 2014 - 09:09 PM, said:

Increase lock time for indirect fire by 3 times should be enough

That doesn't solve the issue even a little bit.

[Lyoto Machida]

Miken, on 18 March 2014 - 09:09 PM, said:

Increase lock time for indirect fire by 3 times should be enough

How does this actually fix the situation? You'd just have more people complaining about LRMs. Also, it doesn't do anything to implement the idea of role warfare.

[Solis Obscuri]

How does removing spotting and fire support role warfare?

Oh I get it! We'll have "Role Warfare" instead of "Roles Warfare" because there will be only one role left - high-alpha assault jump sniper.

[Prezimonto]

Roland, on 18 March 2014 - 07:04 PM, said:

I think some folks who love their LRM's don't really understand what the point of this thread's suggestion is.

It's not simply a nerf to LRM's.

Removing the indirect fire would allow you to balance them in a much more controlled manner. Thus, the end result wouldn't be simply removing indirect fire, but more likely involve removing indirect fire, while buffing them in other instances.

For instance, LRM's in MW4 only had indirect fire.. but they also didn't stop tracking if you lost lock. You only needed to get a lock fire them, and then the missiles did the work.. Which meant that an LRM boat, even when directly targeting a mech, didn't need to just stand there staring at him.

It put LRM's more in line with other weapons, making them much more balanced.

In MWO, the problem with LRM's is that they tend to swing wildly between "total garbage" and "rain of death from above". And it largely hinges on the fact that you can fire them without exposing yourself at all.

I've been arguing for over a year that LRM's need certain values nerfed, so that other values can be tweaked up.

LRM's issue is 50+tubes are silly effective when paired with all the support... in PUG games. LRM's of small numbers are just plain awful, and most mechs are designed to carry an LRM5 or LRM10 and that's it... so those weapons systems get dumped for being useless and reinvested into direct fire weapons.

[Hypocriseriously]

Miken, on 18 March 2014 - 09:09 PM, said:

Increase lock time for indirect fire by 3 times should be enough

That's a good idea (maybe not to that extreme though). Keep the flight speed but increase the lock-on time, or at least add a second or 2 to the lock time when aiming for smaller mechs.

Sort of like in EVE Online, smaller ships take longer to target because of a reduced "signature radius" - this will at least allow small, fast mechs to have more of a chance to get to cover in large maps with mostly open space.

Edit: spellling...

Edited by Inappropriate0097451, 19 March 2014 - 12:07 PM.

[AlmightyAeng]

While we're at it can we make C3 an item that requires tonnage, slots, and only fits on some mechs?

This constant sharing of "all the radarz" is easymode bullshit.

[trollocaustic]

While we're at it, how about LRMs don't turn up, you have to move your arms up each time you shoot.

Oh yeah, And make it so that if your in the middle of firing LRMs, they can be shot and exploded.

Here's some more realism with that same logic.

Why not make the ammo for missiles have to be in the same area as the weapon itself!

[Kaeb Odellas]

I don't support outright removing indirect fire. I'd be fine with seeing it nerfed, though. Higher spread and lock on time, anyone?