34 replies to this topic

[Prezimonto]

Livewyr, on 20 March 2014 - 04:43 AM, said:

3rd: Increase missile spread of boated LRMs.
Every 5 tubes above 40 (two LRM 20s) earns a 30% increase in initial spread.
45 tubes = 130% of spread
50 tubes = 160% of spread
55 tubes = 190% of spread
60 tubes = 220% of spread
65 tubes = 250% of spread
70 tubes = 280% of spread.

If you want to bring your own artillery turret.. you get artillery accuracy.
(Lore reason: Guidance systems overload.)


That wouldn't fix all the problems, but I think it would make a big dent in the mass casualties of bring a brawler. (as a result of balancing long range weapons..)

I'd like that post, but your ideas for missiles are arbitrary and I think there are better ways to handle it.

The issue with LRM's IS missile tube numbers and indirect fire. I hesitate to do anything to indirect fire, without also changing the targeting a guidance systems.

Missiles in large launchers could chain fire in 5 packs. Then (since we have ghost heat) we can pair large launchers with a ghost heat penalty, enough that you can get off a few salvos and then over heat, but lower the heat cost of single launchers and time them so the chain fire of the first launcher doesn't start until the previous stopped firing. So LRM20's fire 4 salvos of 5LRM's over 2 seconds, then 0.5 seconds later, your next salvo fires. This does several things:

It slows down the rate of fire of large, but not small launchers.
It provides softer counters longer times to deal with large salvos of missiles.
It more directly equates small lauchers and large lauchers so when balancing LRM's you don't over or under inflate the utility of either.

Now I know we've had this conversation before, but I'd also suggest with this method a pseudo bone-targeting for LRM's so those 5 packs of missiles don't just core whatever they hit.
standard launchers target the upper regions of a mech with each 5 pack of missiles... RA/RT/CT/LT/LA... but weighted towards the torsos: 5/20/50/20/5 percent.

Artemis pulls 5% off each of the outsides and adds it to the % to hit the CT. 0/15/70/15/0 So launchers with artemis now mostly hit the CT with a little spread to the sides. Add that large launchers are MUCH more efficient in tonnage with using artemis, and you have strong case still for using large launchers on dedicated boats, but missiles become easier to balance, across all mechs. You can increase the per missile damage, increase the missile speed more, and tweak those targeting numbers a little if need be as well.

Edited by Prezimonto, 20 March 2014 - 07:42 AM.

[Lightfoot]

Long range = 25-33% longer recharge than short. This is standard so Gauss Rifle would be 5-5.5 seconds, no charge-up. Gauss doesn't have a minimum range it is slower to aim at close range though, so a tracking slow-down.

LRM20 recharge is usually same as AC20 in MechWarrior games. LRMs are also tactical weapons so they nerf themselves on a LRM boat (over LRM40) since they are too slow to reposition quickly and have no defense to brawlers.

The brawling option should never be the best option for every map. On some maps brawling configs should result in a very difficult tactical position. There is a fine line for this too which MWO is sitting on now since I see 2xAC20's being very successful on every map. Of course this is an overkill brawler config, but it's high level of kills on any map shows brawling is well supported by MWO now.

Edited by Lightfoot, 20 March 2014 - 07:46 AM.

[Mister Blastman]

I've never understood how a ERPPC can recharge its capacitors in the same amount of time as a medium laser... (when you account for firing time + recharge time). It doesn't make sense. The amount of power draw from the grid is exponentially higher for a PPC versus a medium laser.

[Varent]

Sybreed, on 20 March 2014 - 07:26 AM, said:

I would take that over the charge mechanic anyday.

I would to, many though want to argue dps.

I sigh and shake my head.

[Kaldor]

Mr 144, on 20 March 2014 - 07:34 AM, said:

Edit: On LRMs...I hate the duality of the term, but "tube count" refers to how they'll actually fire from the mech based on its launcher modeling...or actual equipped launcher tubes? This is an important characteristic for some chassis, and can greatly influence usability penalties.

Tube count on the particular chassis controls how many missiles you can get into the air in a single volley. It is unrelated to actual LRM launchers equipped. If you equip 2 LRM20s on a mech, but it only has 10 tubes available where you equipped it, it will fire 4 volleys of 10 on a single launch and causes the LRM20 to basically function as a LRM10x2. Its one of the reasons an 8R can absolutely can tear a mech up if caught in the open and its Tag'ed and Artemis is in effect because it will drop 60 missiles in a single volley on a target in a tight pattern. You catch someone in that 250-300m range where the LRM is dang near direct fire, its pretty scary. Ive one shot mediums and lights, and 2 shot heavys. Even some assaults will go down in 2 volleys if you catch them right.

[Corvus Antaka]

A brawler should be about 50% more efficient than a sniper/long range mech. that isnt the case here.

[Khobai]

Id be okay with the following:

1) increased cooldown on PPCs and LRMs

2) reduce ballistic range from x3 to x2.5 (x2 is too extreme and unnecessary)

3) increased missile spread for boating launchers (but artemis also needs a huge buff)

[Joseph Mallan]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 20 March 2014 - 10:43 AM, said:

A brawler should be about 50% more efficient than a sniper/long range mech. that isnt the case here.

Do you know how good you have to be to become a Sniper Col??? One bullet one dead is the quota!

[theta123]

Damocles69, on 20 March 2014 - 07:12 AM, said:

Ya. No reason for ballistics to have x3 range.

They could also, you know, FIX SRMs

This, frakking THIS!

[Daekar]

This thread makes me thankful for the balancing the devs do. There is only one thing out of the entire mess I would consider, and that is altering the 3x falloff on ballistics. It's hardly a priority though.

[Kaldor]

Daekar, on 20 March 2014 - 11:07 AM, said:

This thread makes me thankful for the balancing the devs do. There is only one thing out of the entire mess I would consider, and that is altering the 3x falloff on ballistics. It's hardly a priority though.

What balancing?

Name 1 or 2 things they have done that have actually had real effect on the meta game in the last 18 months?

Yeah, thats what I thought...

[Livewyr]

Daekar, on 20 March 2014 - 11:07 AM, said:

This thread makes me thankful for the balancing the devs do. There is only one thing out of the entire mess I would consider, and that is altering the 3x falloff on ballistics. It's hardly a priority though.

Guessing you don't brawl much, do you.

[Trauglodyte]

Livewyr, on 20 March 2014 - 04:43 AM, said:

I see 3 critical changes that need to happen if brawling is going to be a thing again.

1st: Slow down the RoF of long range weapons. (That's how most games I've played balance between short and long range weapons.)
PPCs/ERPPCs to 6-7 (and remove the 90m all or nothing.. bring it back to scaling damage)
Gauss to 7-8 (and remove that blasted charge-up..)
LL/ERLL to 6-7
LRMs to 5-6

This allows them to be used at long range, but not as destructively, and gives brawlers the upper hand on arrival to close range.

2nd: Reduce the over-range of ballistics down to 2x from 3x.
Gauss down to 1320 from 1980.
AC20 down to 540 from 810.
AC10 down
UAC5 down
AC5 down
AC2 down
etc..

This balances ballistics against each other, and against lasers and missiles. (Currently the AC20 does more damage than the AC10, at the AC10s max optimal range.)

3rd: Increase missile spread of boated LRMs.
Every 5 tubes above 40 (two LRM 20s) earns a 30% increase in initial spread.
45 tubes = 130% of spread
50 tubes = 160% of spread
55 tubes = 190% of spread
60 tubes = 220% of spread
65 tubes = 250% of spread
70 tubes = 280% of spread.

If you want to bring your own artillery turret.. you get artillery accuracy.
(Lore reason: Guidance systems overload.)


That wouldn't fix all the problems, but I think it would make a big dent in the mass casualties of bring a brawler. (as a result of balancing long range weapons..)

Ballistics are going to get balanced down, per the Dev Blog #3. I'm fine with the AC20 where it is but the others need their refire times increased. ACs are the only weapons in game where the smaller weapons maintain the same DPS as the heavier weapons. Also, the excessive range needs to be addressed - dropping them down to 2.5x range is fine for the AC2 and Gauss Rifle. From there, the other heavier ACs need to be adjusted so that they don't do more damage than the one above at max range (see AC20 and AC10).

LRMs are really fine as is. Remember, nothing changed with them except that NARC now works and missiles increased in time to target from 0.5-2.5s Yes, that is a lot if you're caught out in the open but think about how quickly you'd have died had you been out in the open vs a meta Victor/Highlander or a tri-UAC5 Jager/Ilya. People are going overboard on the LRMs because everyone has been running them for hte past couple of days. Once this all shakes loose, we'll go back to what we know: fast front loaded damage is better than slow spread damage.

Kaldor, on 20 March 2014 - 10:01 AM, said:

Tube count on the particular chassis controls how many missiles you can get into the air in a single volley. It is unrelated to actual LRM launchers equipped. If you equip 2 LRM20s on a mech, but it only has 10 tubes available where you equipped it, it will fire 4 volleys of 10 on a single launch and causes the LRM20 to basically function as a LRM10x2. Its one of the reasons an 8R can absolutely can tear a mech up if caught in the open and its Tag'ed and Artemis is in effect because it will drop 60 missiles in a single volley on a target in a tight pattern. You catch someone in that 250-300m range where the LRM is dang near direct fire, its pretty scary. Ive one shot mediums and lights, and 2 shot heavys. Even some assaults will go down in 2 volleys if you catch them right.

THis is actually incorrect. A patch last year made the change where the level of spread is tied to the launcher and not the tube count. Prior to the change, people were boating the heavy LRM launchers on 2-5 counts to get a tighter spread. So, PGI made the change. In your example, what you're getting is 4 launches of 10 missiles but with each of those 10 bursts spread out greater than a normal LRM10.

Edited by Trauglodyte, 20 March 2014 - 12:23 PM.

[Kaldor]

Trauglodyte, on 20 March 2014 - 12:00 PM, said:

THis is actually incorrect. A patch last year made the change where the level of spread is tied to the launcher and not the tube count. Prior to the change, people were boating the heavy LRM launchers on 2-5 counts to get a tighter spread. So, PGI made the change. In your example, what you're getting is 4 launches of 10 missiles but with each of those 10 bursts spread out greater than a normal LRM10.

Ninja nerfing... Nah, actually I have no issue with that. Its been awhile since Ive put any serious time into this game so I missed that one.

But, I still troll with my 6 ALRM5 Cat A1 for kicks once in awhile. When its good, its great, when its bad, its really bad, lol. When I play a LRM build, I go to one extreme or the other, the Cat A1 or the Awesome 8R. I guess that why I never seen that change because neither of those mechs are effected by it.

[Flying Blind]

Livewyr, on 20 March 2014 - 04:43 AM, said:

I see 3 critical changes that need to happen if brawling is going to be a thing again.

1st: Slow down the RoF of long range weapons. (That's how most games I've played balance between short and long range weapons.)
PPCs/ERPPCs to 6-7 (and remove the 90m all or nothing.. bring it back to scaling damage)
Gauss to 7-8 (and remove that blasted charge-up..)
LL/ERLL to 6-7
LRMs to 5-6

This allows them to be used at long range, but not as destructively, and gives brawlers the upper hand on arrival to close range.

2nd: Reduce the over-range of ballistics down to 2x from 3x.
Gauss down to 1320 from 1980.
AC20 down to 540 from 810.
AC10 down
UAC5 down
AC5 down
AC2 down
etc..

This balances ballistics against each other, and against lasers and missiles. (Currently the AC20 does more damage than the AC10, at the AC10s max optimal range.)

3rd: Increase missile spread of boated LRMs.
Every 5 tubes above 40 (two LRM 20s) earns a 30% increase in initial spread.
45 tubes = 130% of spread
50 tubes = 160% of spread
55 tubes = 190% of spread
60 tubes = 220% of spread
65 tubes = 250% of spread
70 tubes = 280% of spread.

If you want to bring your own artillery turret.. you get artillery accuracy.
(Lore reason: Guidance systems overload.)


That wouldn't fix all the problems, but I think it would make a big dent in the mass casualties of bring a brawler. (as a result of balancing long range weapons..)

Quoted because I can only like it once. This change would be amazing, I am 100% on board.

I posted this on Twitter and Russ retweeted or so that will be good exposure for this great idea.

In all honestly, I want brawling to be viable and effective again and I really don't care how it is done. The above looks like a good option to me but really the details are unimportantant to long as it works.

If SRMS catch a buff or a fix in the mix I'll be twice as happy.

Edited by Flying Blind, 20 March 2014 - 03:34 PM.