39 replies to this topic

[Dunning Kruger Effect]

I've tried a Victor and Highlander, and I'm not into "jump sniping" enough to make them worthwhile over, say, a Cataphract. I've got a Stalker which does a bit better but runs a bit hot.

I'm considering:

Atlas DDC
Why: I play PUGs and being in an Atlas seems to automatically attract team mates (who admittedly want to hide behind you) thus offering a way to "direct" other players. Also ECM seems increasingly useful given the increasing amounts of LRMs I see used. I've also seen some good "surprise attacks" launched by sneaky Atlases cloaked by their ECM lately.

Why not: Firepower isn't that impressive for a 100-ton mech, it's slow, and I'm not a fan of low-mounted weapons. I seem to headshot a lot of them. I also don't enjoy using missiles so I doubt I will get much "fun" out of the missile slots. Brawler builds -which the DDC seems suited for - seem very handicapped on certain maps. Atlases seem like bullet magnets for the entire enemy team (even if a more fragile yet damaging Jager is nearby, they always go for the Atlas first)

Banshee 3E
Why: Dakka! The 4 ballistics/4 energy offer a range of builds - AC5/2s + MLs, PPCs+various - finally the firepower of a Jager on a tankier assault chassis. Also, cheaper than a Atlas - I can outfit another mech with the difference in C-bills.

Why not: Torso/head mounted weapons - I'm not sure if the limited gun traverse would be worth the ability to treat arms as expendable shields. Also, I don't know much about them as they are still pretty rare to fight.

Other
I'm open to suggestions. Jumpjets don't seem vital to me in an assault (though I love them in mediums and lights), and I find missiles uninteresting. Maybe the Battlemaster 1G and 1D are worth a look? Ideally, I'd like to wield at least as much direct-fire firepower as a Cataphract or Jager. (Merely being able to soak up damage tends to be cancelled out by painfully slow speed which means you spend more time exposed to fire in the first place.)

So what is the advice of the general populace?

[PhoenixFire55]

Consider this ... if you plan to master your new mech, you'll have to buy 2 others of the same chassis even if you'll sell them later. So take a look at other Atlases and other Banshees, and think which ones you'll have less problems with building.

[Dunning Kruger Effect]

I doubt I will ever buy mechs I dislike in order to "master" a chassis. If I want to "grind" 100s of games for a mech I don't even want or plan to keep, I might as well play World of Tanks. (OK, I admit I did it with the Spider 5V, but THAT didn't cost 10mil+ c-bills).

So it's fine to consider mechs "in isolation" from others with the same chassis.

[EarlGrey83]

Objectively spoken, the Atlas DDC is the better of those two.

Its biggest upside is the ECM, it´s effect can not be mirrored by anything the Banshee can do.
The recent LRM buffs and the hit register fixes planned for the april 2th. patch (SRM fix) help with the firepower.

The Banshee 3E however is a really fun mech as well, I´m mastering it at the moment. Just don´t think its faster than the DDC, if you want lots of ballistic on it you have to downsize the reactor.

[TercieI]

Dunning Kruger Effect, on 21 March 2014 - 03:16 AM, said:

I doubt I will ever buy mechs I dislike in order to "master" a chassis. If I want to "grind" 100s of games for a mech I don't even want or plan to keep, I might as well play World of Tanks. (OK, I admit I did it with the Spider 5V, but THAT didn't cost 10mil+ c-bills).

So it's fine to consider mechs "in isolation" from others with the same chassis.

If that's how you feel, I'd avoid both of these mechs, actually. The Atlas handles like an inebriated elephant until it's through elite and I can't imagine the Banshee is much better that way.

IMO, mastery is important for any mech's performance, but is most important on assaults.

[AlmightyAeng]

Dunning Kruger Effect, on 21 March 2014 - 02:45 AM, said:

I've tried a Victor and Highlander, and I'm not into "jump sniping" enough to make them worthwhile over, say, a Cataphract. I've got a Stalker which does a bit better but runs a bit hot.

I'm considering:

Atlas DDC
Why: I play PUGs and being in an Atlas seems to automatically attract team mates (who admittedly want to hide behind you) thus offering a way to "direct" other players. Also ECM seems increasingly useful given the increasing amounts of LRMs I see used. I've also seen some good "surprise attacks" launched by sneaky Atlases cloaked by their ECM lately.

Why not: Firepower isn't that impressive for a 100-ton mech, it's slow, and I'm not a fan of low-mounted weapons. I seem to headshot a lot of them. I also don't enjoy using missiles so I doubt I will get much "fun" out of the missile slots. Brawler builds -which the DDC seems suited for - seem very handicapped on certain maps. Atlases seem like bullet magnets for the entire enemy team (even if a more fragile yet damaging Jager is nearby, they always go for the Atlas first)

Haven't tried the Banshee yet, but the D-DC was my first mech in MWO. Cut my teeth on it. Once it's elited and has a 325 engine (or larger...350 is my personal sweet spot) the handling changes IMMENSELY.

The ability to have a sneaky brawler cannot be understated. I jumped in it for a single game last night (in the LRM meta) with my standard golden brawler build (2 LL, AC20, SRM14). 845 damage, 4 kills, 4 assists. Run with your group, don't be afraid to scratch your paint, and just punch at things until they melt away. Once you choose to engage you're committed. Don't waffle back and forth, teasing around a corner. Pick your fight, and fight it.

The Atlases I see being ineffective are the ones that play peekaboo (and lose) or the ones that see 600m of open ground with no enemies in sight and say "Oh, I can go there!" and halfway across the enemy opens up and demolishes them. It's sneaky, not fast or agile (though at 65 kph, it's not terrible. UPGRADE ENGINE).

Edited by Ghost Badger, 21 March 2014 - 06:04 AM.

[Dunning Kruger Effect]

Thanks for the replies - especially EarlGrey and Ghost Badger for their specific advice and explanations!

I must say it's always a great community here for helping newbies (just don't mention CW or 3rd person view! )

[AlmightyAeng]

Dunning Kruger Effect, on 21 March 2014 - 07:01 AM, said:

Thanks for the replies - especially EarlGrey and Ghost Badger for their specific advice and explanations!

I must say it's always a great community here for helping newbies (just don't mention CW or 3rd person view! )

I try to pace myself with equal parts helping new guys, objective (I try) arguments on balance and sincere condescension for stupidity. You're welcome.

[Enigmos]

The thing about the Banshee 3E is that you pay a tonnage premium for each ballistic weapon and that reduces your potential damage output. To fit four AC2 you are talking 24 tons of gun with a high RoF (Rate of Fire). They will burn through a ton of ammo in under 19 seconds of continuous fire.

[ZeProme]

Frankly, IMO, I think the CTF-4X is slightly better "alternative" than the Banshee 3E. The four ballistics hard points can be utilized more efficiently since you have a little bit more critical slots. (2 arms versus 1 torso).

Factoring in the fact that you need XL engines to boat heavy ballistic builds (unless you want to be slow), Banshee will have a difficult time managing anything bigger than AC/5s (even with combinations of AC/2) in 3+ amounts. Plus the CTF-4X is a lot more flexible when it comes to combat since all of the ballistic weapons are on the arms. While CTF-4X has low arms and low engine cap, it should be slightly faster and still agile/nimble enough compared to the Banshee 3E.

Another good ballistic platform is the infamous Jagermechs. Self explanatory. Problem is that it's rather under-tonned compared to many heavy ballistic platforms.

CTF-4X Quad AC/5 build: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...287de6eddc90deb

Of course, your mileage varies but I think the Banshee E3 isn't as potent compared to the CTF-4X even with 25 tons of difference. This is spoken out of my point of view, not to deter you from trying out the Banshee though.

As some have suggested, the AS7-D-DC is highly recommended because being ECM capable is a huge asset to you and your team. You can't under-estimate the value of the AS7-D-DC.

Errr, scratch that. 25 tons is a lot of difference and you can just make a "zombie" (meaning no armor for arms and use STD) Banshee to compensate for lack of free tonnage. My brain is going haywire today >_>

[Hawk819]

I'd take both, and I have the DDC and love it. I use the LRMs as long range support for my team and then when they're used up, I move in for the kill. Plus I help support my team mates as much as I can. I want the Banshee as well. Generally, for a brawler `Mech. All 3 variants offer this. Especially the 3S.

[Gtbuck]

I've mastered the Atlas and am currently working on Banshee.

DDC - You mentioned a problem with brawling. When the meta moved to the current one I changed my build to include 2 uac-5s, this opens the range up and helps on some of those long range maps. While the ECM is helpful it's not the dominating tech it once was, so many mechs are now using bap and tag many times it gets defeated. Someone mentioned earlier about a bigger engine and I agree, I run a 330 in mine and that definitely helps with the turning.
The missile hardpoints are a bit annoying, but I still seem to do enough damage with them using 2 srm 4s and 1 6.
I still love the DDC and there are some great builds for it, also if you decide to master them the D and the RS especially are good mechs, the RS is capable of of getting the increased damage your looking for with the additional 2 energy hardpoints.

Banshee - I just bought these a couple of days ago and I love the chassis. Right now I run it with 3 PPC, ac-10 and ac-5. I've built a 2 ac5 2 ac2 build in smurfy but haven't field tested yet. So far I'm impressed with this mech, but what you gain in firepower you lose in mobility by having to run a smaller engine.
Personally I'm not bothered by not having arm mounted weapons, I haven't made it thought basic yet but already the turning is good enough to track most mechs but back to the engine, the E is slow. Another + these mechs can take a beating. As far as other variants, I'm having a good time with the 3m 2LPL, 2LL, and 5 ML(400XL makes this the most mobile), and the S as a brawler is capable of a 78 alpha strike.

I really enjoy both of these mechs, but if I'm a lone wolf and I have to chose one.....I would probably go with the Banshee E.

As far as other mechs, not knowing what other mechs you run or what weapons you prefer it's tough, but if you're looking outside of assaults, I always recommend the cataphract, and if you only buy one and you don't want JJ, make it the 1x. Std 320 with 5 ML and an ac20 is a lot of fun.

Edited to add, my preference with the Banshee...I don't like to leave hardpoints unused, so most of my builds with these are high alpha high heat, this may not work for everyone, but I have found that I can fit 15-20 DHS in these builds so they cool back down pretty quick.

Edited by Gtbuck, 21 March 2014 - 08:36 AM.

[Hectortek]

Atlas DDC has something no other assault mech got , ECM , which lets you play LRM better or be a better brawler since you can flank them without beeing seen

But it has a cost , is a slow mech , VERY BIG hard point , people hates him ( as you have seen they prefere hitting him instead a lighter jagger who could be a bigger threat )

In my experience with both ( LRM and Brawler DDC ) you sometimes have to be coward and let lighter mechs let you behind so they got enemy's attention , when this happens you are free to flank them ( dont ever go in the center of your team as you will be seen and enemy will switch targets to you )

My LRM Atlas has 300std 3 LRMx15 and 2 AC5
My Brawler Atlas has 340XL 2 AC5 3 SRM6 and 2 ERPPC ( 2.7 KD rating after reset )

with skills their speed are 50 and 60 , good enough i think

[Satan n stuff]

Terciel1976, on 21 March 2014 - 03:58 AM, said:

If that's how you feel, I'd avoid both of these mechs, actually. The Atlas handles like an inebriated elephant until it's through elite and I can't imagine the Banshee is much better that way.

IMO, mastery is important for any mech's performance, but is most important on assaults.

Just looking at the numbers ( I haven't tried them yet. ) Banshees are significantly more agile than Atlai, but the lack of arm mounted weapons will be massive handicap in a brawl. Mastering an Atlas or Banshee is practically mandatory if you're going to brawl with it because almost any other mech can easily get away from that torso crosshair.

Edited by Satan n stuff, 21 March 2014 - 09:49 AM.

[TercieI]

Satan n stuff, on 21 March 2014 - 09:46 AM, said:

Just looking at the numbers ( I haven't tried them yet. ) Banshees are significantly more agile than Atlai, but the lack of arm mounted weapons will be massive handicap in a brawl. Mastering an Atlas or Banshee is practically mandatory if you're going to brawl with it because almost any other mech can easily get away from that torso crosshair.

So are HGNs, they're still pigs until they're through elite.

I was initially very skeptical about the BNC (spent saved c-bills elsewhere), but I'm starting to hear positive whispers. Anyone who's driven them care to comment?

[meteorol]

Dunning Kruger Effect, on 21 March 2014 - 07:01 AM, said:

I must say it's always a great community here for helping newbies (just don't mention CW or 3rd person view! )

Most importantly, never mention respawn. Seriously, don't do it. Guys need the 2 minutes searching for a match between each death to paint their TT figures. If you even think of mentioning something regarding respawn, your thread will be in K-town 2 minutes later.

Terciel1976, on 21 March 2014 - 10:35 AM, said:

I was initially very skeptical about the BNC (spent saved c-bills elsewhere), but I'm starting to hear positive whispers. Anyone who's driven them care to comment?

3E shreads other assault mechs. Against slow moving targets, the torso weapons are not an issue, and it can really put down some crazy damage.
I have mastered the Atlas, HGN and Victor, and in an assault vs assault battle, the BNC is my current favorit mech.

Keep in mind though, hitting light mechs with those torso mounted weapons is a pain in the *ss if you don't have the elite skills yet. It feels suprisingly agile though. I'm only using a STD300, and it's slow as hell, but it doesn't really feal slugglish while beeing slow. Smooth slow, if you know what i mean

I have killed some light mechs with it, but good light pilots will give you some serious issues. But all in all, i have to say i love it. Having much more fun in my BNC than piloting my highlander or victor atm (could be because it's new and shiny)

[Koniving]

Dunning Kruger Effect, on 21 March 2014 - 02:45 AM, said:

Spoiler

I've tried a Victor and Highlander, and I'm not into "jump sniping" enough to make them worthwhile over, say, a Cataphract. I've got a Stalker which does a bit better but runs a bit hot.

I'm considering:

Atlas DDC
Why: I play PUGs and being in an Atlas seems to automatically attract team mates (who admittedly want to hide behind you) thus offering a way to "direct" other players. Also ECM seems increasingly useful given the increasing amounts of LRMs I see used. I've also seen some good "surprise attacks" launched by sneaky Atlases cloaked by their ECM lately.

Why not: Firepower isn't that impressive for a 100-ton mech, it's slow, and I'm not a fan of low-mounted weapons. I seem to headshot a lot of them. I also don't enjoy using missiles so I doubt I will get much "fun" out of the missile slots. Brawler builds -which the DDC seems suited for - seem very handicapped on certain maps. Atlases seem like bullet magnets for the entire enemy team (even if a more fragile yet damaging Jager is nearby, they always go for the Atlas first)

Banshee 3E
Why: Dakka! The 4 ballistics/4 energy offer a range of builds - AC5/2s + MLs, PPCs+various - finally the firepower of a Jager on a tankier assault chassis. Also, cheaper than a Atlas - I can outfit another mech with the difference in C-bills.

Why not: Torso/head mounted weapons - I'm not sure if the limited gun traverse would be worth the ability to treat arms as expendable shields. Also, I don't know much about them as they are still pretty rare to fight.

Other
I'm open to suggestions. Jumpjets don't seem vital to me in an assault (though I love them in mediums and lights), and I find missiles uninteresting. Maybe the Battlemaster 1G and 1D are worth a look? Ideally, I'd like to wield at least as much direct-fire firepower as a Cataphract or Jager. (Merely being able to soak up damage tends to be cancelled out by painfully slow speed which means you spend more time exposed to fire in the first place.)

So what is the advice of the general populace?

First I will tell you that an Banshee with any ballistic heavy assortment WILL BE as slow as an Atlas. That's first and foremost.
That said...

Atlas D-DC.

Spoiler

While the D-DC is the only Atlas I do not own, that is not to say I've never owned one. Where it compares against ANY Banshee is the number of missiles. Yes, a missile Banshee might even make a better LRM boat being able to fire 20 missiles at once from a single launcher. But, when it comes to streaks as an anti-light weapon the Banshee is worthless in comparison. With only two streaks my Atlases frequently make mince meat of enemy lights. Arm mounted energy weapons are crucial in surviving against enemy lights and smaller mediums as well as fighting swarms.

This is an Atlas D with basics only. Despite the other voices, it is only me and the voiceless commando here (their fight keeps going even as ours end, and there's even a base capture in their fight that never happens). Watch the reliance on the arm weapons. That's SRM-6, LRM-10, AC/2, AC/5, 4 ML. Imagine how much easier it would have been with two streaks.


You can match the Banshee to an extent, for example AC/20 + AC/2 + 3 SRM-6s + 2 ML would actually be superior to the Banshee's AC/20 + 2 AC/2 + 4 ML build.

The Atlas is slightly wider, but shorter than the Banshee.

Here's what a team of 3 Atlases can do to a team of 3 meta rig Miseries and 1 high damage stalker. Second match not the first.


The indention of the left eye makes it tricky to hit the cockpit from too close but not impossible.

Banshee 3E

Spoiler

The Banshee is an incredibly fun mech.

But I will tell you right now, it is freaking useless against lights. Allied with a Battlemaster that I got to stick it out with me, the two of us almost died against a single Firestarter and an ECM Spider. We absolutely could not defend ourselves properly; we could barely hit them and couldn't maneuver to save our own lives. At one point we lucked out that a Jenner came out (and quickly died) allowing us to make a chasing retreat (we went after the firestarter and ran from the spider) where we eventually cornered the firestarter and fried him at point blank with LB-10x, UAC/5, AC/2 and 4 ML.

There are no arm weapons and the twist is lumberingly slow with the standard 300 required to run good ballistic rigs. It's actually difficult to track and effectively hit faster mediums let alone lights.

But if you get an enemy heavy, slower medium, or even an assault mech in your sights...

For a few of the kills there I had there, I shouted "SHOTGUNS RULE!" The weapons used in that specific match are: 4 Medium Lasers, 1 LB-10x, 1 AC/5, 1 AC/2, and 1 Machine Gun. I'm serious.

That match had a number of Forum regulars in it. The enemy team had a number of Centurions, a Dragon, some Jagers, some LRM mechs. I just waltz in and kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, and kill. But there wasn't more than one enemy light and it never paid attention to me. I chose a path that would let me 'tunnel' them into one on one fights or two on one fights where I didn't have to rotate much and they couldn't get around me. That made it easy.

But, a Banshee doesn't stand a chance in a direct fight against one well-built Misery in an open field, even with the help of a Firestarter and a LRM Catapult C1. Details on that fight found here with full story.




I don't know where the cockpit is yet on a Banshee as far as the hitbox.

That said here's what I can say about the others.
Battlemaster

Spoiler

From a female gamer that frequently plays with me about the Battlemaster: "I'm not sure if I will like a Banshee. I sold my Atlas because it's too slow. But I love my Battlemaster. It's quick and can get in and out of the fight when I need it. It's got the speed of a heavy-medium and turns pretty well. The twist on it is just awesome. Did I tell you about the LBX? Yeah, I put an LBX on it to help deal with the lights. Couple of machine guns to work with the arm laser on them, too."

I had something similar for a while, but I wasn't a fan of an arm-mounted LB-10x with that movement range as I could have an easier time leading with twin AC/5s.

Battlemasters can take LRM hits fairly well, but their wide, large surface area does make them an LRM-soak. It spreads nicely, however, like on an Orion or Cataphract.

Battlemasters have a flaw in the hitbox design for the cockpit. Unlike most mechs it tilts downward; while this prevents the Artillery Instant-Kill that some assaults face, it can allow a Locust or other light mech to get too close to even be seen and then shoot up into the small square panel of the cockpit, killing you easily. Battlemasters can easily be killed by lights without ever seeing them through this, so be careful.

Here's the Flamer test against an AC/40 Jager.

Stalkers

Spoiler

From myself. Stalkers, even post-hitbox changes, can take an incredible amount of abuse. The arms are small and unlike the Misery, they get +10% protection when the missile doors are closed. It has trouble turning and effectively works like a Rhino or Aligator. But if you get something in front of you it will die. Unlike a Banshee, it also has superior vertical access even for the torso weapons. A supply of streaks will ruin any light's day, making up for its inability to turn that well.

For a glimpse into the stalker's ability to take abuse... Here's the 2013 Flamer Stalker. Yes that is a 4 AC cataphract following me at point blank hammering my backside for nearly 30 seconds non-stop. 2013 Flamer Stalker against lighter threats in an anti-base-cap ambush..

And the post-changes 2014 Flamer Stalker. It's terrified of MGs and LBXs, but otherwise it does very well.

Note: Stalkers are very weak against LRMs. The hitbox design of a Stalker gives it a very large top area, with plenty of opportunity for the 0.5 meter splash to amplify the damage of LRMs. Be warned.

A stalker's cockpit is impossible to hit at any range closer than 30 meters from the front, or 15 meters from the side. This is an awesome trait. However, the cockpit is very wide and a shot at long range is an easy one. I kid you not I did this accidentally and repeated it very easy for the two shot kill.

Highlanders

Spoiler

You know a bit about Highlanders, but poptarts are not the only route to go. Here's a brawler.

Highlanders soak damage quite well even after hitbox changes. The very wide CT is actually an asset against LRM fire as it prevents the multiplication of LRM splash damage (the splash only amplifies against secondary body parts hit).

The cockpit is shielded from above and is difficult to hit from below despite the shape of the windows. You need to be within a 30 degree arc of the front of the Highlander to cockpit it and its box is very fickle about being hit. Makes it pretty hard to kill.

This is my most dramatic victory with the same build. In the end I was legged, had no armor anywhere, and was in really bad shape.

Victors

Spoiler

The Victor makes a great brawler. My Dragon Slayer doesn't even use jumpjets. I'm serious. Its issue is it turns like a mule and has terrible arm range. Make up for this with an LB-10x + AC/5 combination and 2 or more streaks. They are fairly fast, I keep myself at a 280 to 300 engine though because I like endurance over speed or excessive firepower. I want to be able to chain through 5 enemies back to back without having to stop, cool off, or anything else. And I get those results.

The trick is not to get too close that you have to turn, but close enough to where the enemy has trouble keeping his weapons focused.

Edit: Added spoilers.

Edited by Koniving, 21 March 2014 - 02:32 PM.

[Dunning Kruger Effect]

@ Koniving

Thanks for your detailed responses - most useful. I notice you around in the newbie forum a lot and I appreciate your helpfulness always.

So your brawler builds usually have a LB10x/AC5 or Ac2 (I presume for crit seeking). I actually have never used a LBX on any of my mechs (I like pinpoint damage) - what is their actual effective range?

[luxebo]

Dunning Kruger Effect, on 21 March 2014 - 06:13 PM, said:

@ Koniving

Thanks for your detailed responses - most useful. I notice you around in the newbie forum a lot and I appreciate your helpfulness always.

So your brawler builds usually have a LB10x/AC5 or Ac2 (I presume for crit seeking). I actually have never used a LBX on any of my mechs (I like pinpoint damage) - what is their actual effective range?

This kind of combo of ACs (LBX + AC2/5) have a very drastic screenshake effect (I've faced it a couple times). LBX is pretty long in range, and is pretty effective until around I would say 600-700m. Actual effective range is 540 iirc.

Koniving is a very helpful man and I appreciate him a ton for all the advice he gives. I'd like to thank him again, seconding this response.

Edited by luxebo, 21 March 2014 - 07:06 PM.

[Koniving]

Dunning Kruger Effect, on 21 March 2014 - 06:13 PM, said:

So your brawler builds usually have a LB10x/AC5 or Ac2 (I presume for crit seeking). I actually have never used a LBX on any of my mechs (I like pinpoint damage) - what is their actual effective range?

It actually varies.. LB-10x has different spread patterns and behaviors with different mechs. It performs better with some than others.

For some mechs it's accurate to a 5 meter radius all the way up to 600 meters. Some mechs it spreads to a 25 meter radius at 300+ meters. It was once stated by either Paul or Thomas that there are more than 60 spread patterns. But it wasn't specified if there was a limited number of patterns per mech or something of the sort.

Personally I like the spread, it lets me test the entire enemy mech for weak spots to focus on. It's why I like the LB + AC/5 combination; the shotgun finds a weak point, the AC/5 cuts into it, and then the LB makes him really hurt after.

The Cataphract 3D for example spreads differently than a Cataphract 4X, which spread differently from the Jager DD who spreads identical to the Jager S, but spreads different from an Atlas or Banshee.

Edit: Saw a typo, fixed, explained a bit more.

Edited by Koniving, 21 March 2014 - 09:20 PM.