18 replies to this topic

[WintermuteOmega]

I didn't want to make this another LURM OP/Just fine Topic.
But itis smethingon my heart. After years playing this game, i am stIll not a good Player by any means. I tend to Panic and run out in the open after being hit by LURMS, resulting in more death by LURMS.

The latest patch made me hang up my fighting uniform for some time, until the wave of LURMS is passed a bit (sadly just in time for the Challenge -*sigh*)

I know, LRMS are not really OP at this Point, but they hurt me...
So I’ve been thinking. I think, the main Problem is still Information/Role-Warfare. I think, what would boost this game up a notch is the implementation of C3 Command and Slave Units, restricted to share information in the same lance.

What I mean by that: Right now, as soon one mech can target an enemy mech, everyone can target that mech, resulting in full LRM hellfire when boating.
My suggestion (as also by TT Rules) you cannot target mechs that are not your LOS. Unless you have one mech equipped with a C3-Comamnd Unit und you yourself equipped with a C3 Slave Unit.

What this would do is firstly nerf Heavys and assaults a bit, because they are the ones that are able to carry the heavy C3-Master module. It would hurt Assaults even a bit, because the C3-Network would crash with a missing c3-Master module, so it would be a good strategy to aim for the big guys (which pretty much happens already), making heavys and mediums less dangerous (and therefore more fun) to play.

It would boost lights as spotters, even more so with the NARC-boost, since targeting information would get less omnipresent.

LURM-Boats could not all focus on one mech, making 3 second-peek-insta-LRM-deaths for us noobs less possible. But then the fast, hard hitting LRM’s are much more in place, since they don’t get to shoot that often, so they should be still worth equipping.
And last and not least, it would make the game a bit more tactical (and feel a bit more like the TT), since one Blip on your Map tends to make every mech run for the Whack-a-mole. To share information the whole team would have to start to talk to each other instead of just waiting for the Blip to appear.

[Willard Phule]

The only change I would put to that is the whole C3 Master/Slave concept. Unless you're in a premade group, there's no guarantee that someone would have a Master unit.

If you simply developed something called "C3 Computer," made it somewhere between the Master and the Slave in tonnage and slot requirements....then you would be able to share targeting with people in your PUG drop. Call it a "compromise due to randomness."

[WintermuteOmega]

Yes, thats true. I forgot that the new Launchmodlue 3/3/3/3 doesn't nescessary mean all lances would be Assault/heavy/medium/light.
Though i would love that limitation myself, i can see that it would not fit for many premade players at all.

[Willard Phule]

It's not the premade I was thinking about..it's the PUGs. Guys like me that drop solo almost exclusively would have problems if all they had was a slave and noone bothered to bring a Master.

[dario03]

I would rather they just toned down the LRMs. The narc buffs alone should of been where they started and then maybe a small speed boost. But if they aren't doing that then this could work. Maybe also let tag and Narc work without the C3 but get rid of the target decay module.

[Willard Phule]

dario03, on 20 March 2014 - 05:44 AM, said:

I would rather they just toned down the LRMs. The narc buffs alone should of been where they started and then maybe a small speed boost. But if they aren't doing that then this could work. Maybe also let tag and Narc work without the C3 but get rid of the target decay module.

Keep in mind that the speed boost to the LRMs still has that "new car" smell. Everyone's messing around with it for one reason or the other...to see if they're useful, to see what you need to do to avoid them, etc.

Eventually, this will all blow over and a new meta will emerge. Just like when they added Ghost Heat. It'll all work out in the end.

[dario03]

Willard Phule, on 20 March 2014 - 05:47 AM, said:

Keep in mind that the speed boost to the LRMs still has that "new car" smell. Everyone's messing around with it for one reason or the other...to see if they're useful, to see what you need to do to avoid them, etc.

Eventually, this will all blow over and a new meta will emerge. Just like when they added Ghost Heat. It'll all work out in the end.

That would only apply if the LRMs weren't actually that great. But right now the only big downside to them is the minimum range. They have the benefit of not needing LOS and being able to go around your own and the enemies cover AND with LOS you can land huge alphas that almost all hit CT with very little effort. Maybe some people are just testing them out but that doesn't change the fact that they over buffed them (especially for just one patch) and thus a lot of people will keep using them. They're basically like long range tracking AC60s now.

Edited by dario03, 20 March 2014 - 06:44 AM.

[Willard Phule]

We must play in different Elo brackets then.

I'm seeing just as many AMS increases...ie, more people using them...as I am LRMs right now. One is probably caused by the other, obviously, but I've seen (and felt) a lot of those LRM60 clouds get reduced to a love tap before it gets there.

I guess it's all a matter of skill levels...the team that sticks together and uses overlapping AMS, uses terrain to their advantage, sticks to the ECM Guy...that kind of stuff...tends to do better than the team that breaks into 4 separate groups, stands on a hill, zooms in, target fixates and gets eaten alive. I see a lot of that, too.

[dario03]

over lapping ams does little to multiple LRM boats, but yeah I agree that the team that fights counter LRM the best will win since LRMs are what everybody is taking right now. And bringing more LRM than the enemy is a good way to play counter LRM.

[SirLANsalot]

By technicality we all are using a 0 crit 0 ton C3i system.

[Khobai]

Quote

By technicality we all are using a 0 crit 0 ton C3i system.

Nah. Mechs can share sensor information without C3.

What C3 does goes beyond information sharing. In tabletop, if you have two mechs, and ones at short range and the others at long range and both are part of the same C3 network. The mech at long range can attack as though it were at short range and ignore the long range penalties.

[SirLANsalot]

Khobai, on 20 March 2014 - 08:13 AM, said:

Nah. Mechs can share sensor information without C3.

What C3 does goes beyond information sharing. In tabletop, if you have two mechs, and ones at short range and the others at long range and both are part of the same C3 network. The mech at long range can attack as though it were at short range and ignore the long range penalties.

none of that applies here.

Probably the best way to implement C3, would be this.

If I have a C3 Master, and you have a C3 Slave and you are hit by ECM, you are not disrupted at all and function as normal. If the Master gets hit by ECM, the entire team (or all of those with slaves) are disrupted. This can be counteracted by having multiple C3 Masters (backups) but if all masters are under ECM, so too will the team. Restrictions would be ECM mechs themselves cannot use the Slave system (cannot be immune to ECM while being ECM).

[DocBach]

C3 linked 'Mechs are suppose to share all sensor data between their network. Right now you can only target a 'Mech out of sight that someone else who has LOS is targeting. C3 would allow you to target whatever they could potentially target, even if they aren't.

It could also be a potent mechanism for spotters - though direct fire weapons can't really achieve an accuracy buff, C3 'Mechs could share targeting information sooner the closer the spotter is to the target, and/or perhaps speed up lock time in relation to the spotters range to target.

[SuomiWarder]

Some form of the 3Ci which was 2 tons and did not need a master might slow the LRM barrage a bit. You don't need to keep it by lance, just if you have a 3Ci installed you can get target info (like what weapons are on board and LRM locks) from other 3Ci equipped allies. Otherwise everyone shares general location target locks so we don't spend forever trying to find each other.

If nothing else it would take some ammo away from the LRM mechs. Main issue is that scouts would loose some tonnage. Maybe the BAP could double as the 3Ci or it only takes 1 ton or something.

[WintermuteOmega]

I've for one saw an increase in Anti-LRM-Tactics.
I run my Jester with Dual AMS and 3 Tons of Ammo for the buggers and have the +AMS-Range module installed. Add 2 or 3 Jesters/Firestartes + 2 or 3 ECM Mechs in the mix, Play the Wall-Hugger and things tend to turn.

Stll, in a match where i stupidly run into the open, beeing greeted by3 Trial-Stalkers (180 Missiles), i'm dead in seconds.
So an additonal System of limiting Multi-boating/taking Tonnage of LURMS on one Target still would be nice.

As stated, Little Mechs would be in a disadvantage, so maybe the JJ-Route? 1 Tns for a small mech C3 (more saveish) and more tons for bigger mechs, like 1,5 / 2 / 2,5 Tons or something like that.

And it is true, that the TT-Rules are different for C3 C3i etc. And while it surely be possible to Transfer the long-range/short-range modifiers in to the game - giving for e.g. the shooting mech full damage even at max range, if a C3-spotter is standing in optimal range as guidance for the other mech, this would not feel right.

So i would tend to go more in the direction of Information-Warfare for the C3-System

[Willard Phule]

WintermuteOmega, on 21 March 2014 - 03:17 AM, said:

I've for one saw an increase in Anti-LRM-Tactics.
I run my Jester with Dual AMS and 3 Tons of Ammo for the buggers and have the +AMS-Range module installed. Add 2 or 3 Jesters/Firestartes + 2 or 3 ECM Mechs in the mix, Play the Wall-Hugger and things tend to turn.

Stll, in a match where i stupidly run into the open, beeing greeted by3 Trial-Stalkers (180 Missiles), i'm dead in seconds.
So an additonal System of limiting Multi-boating/taking Tonnage of LURMS on one Target still would be nice.

As stated, Little Mechs would be in a disadvantage, so maybe the JJ-Route? 1 Tns for a small mech C3 (more saveish) and more tons for bigger mechs, like 1,5 / 2 / 2,5 Tons or something like that.

And it is true, that the TT-Rules are different for C3 C3i etc. And while it surely be possible to Transfer the long-range/short-range modifiers in to the game - giving for e.g. the shooting mech full damage even at max range, if a C3-spotter is standing in optimal range as guidance for the other mech, this would not feel right.

So i would tend to go more in the direction of Information-Warfare for the C3-System

The whole "Boating" thing...whether AC, PPC or LRM...could be fixed by Hardpoint slot limitations. That'll never happen, though, because it would be a smart thing to do and it would have to be applied retroactively after everyone already has their min/max meta set up. Shame.

One thing that COULD be done that would definitely limit both the LRM boating and some of the AC type metas would be to scale the ammunition back to BT standards. Right now we're getting, what, twice the ammo per ton? If you've got to make your shots count, you'd see a HUGE change in the way the game is played right now.

And, yeah, I know what we've got isn't a true C3 system...but what we've got isn't the BT communications/sensor system either. What we've got in MW:O is kind of a weird hybrid. One thing that needs to be kept in mind is that any changes made by PGI truly need to be on the KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) principle. The last thing we need is something that's underthought, overcomplicated and breaks the game...again.

[Chemie]

typical PGI. It is like when they buffed MG to highest DPS weapon the game or all the other LRM messes. They go in way too large chunks of extreme swings.

Why they can't tweak every week slowly instead of taking something that was in a good place and adding 50% faster speed I will never fathom.

[Frankdark]

The LRM`S like now are Absulutly OK!!!

The Problem is indirect Fire.

And the sulution with C3 neede For Target Share is Perfect

Make it as:

C3 1 Crit 1 Tonnage

Installed like.
But with 3-4 Times more Bonus for Spotting assist

Not Installed, you see only youre Locks

Forget Master and Complicated rules ( for the moment )

[Willard Phule]

Frankdark, on 21 March 2014 - 03:34 AM, said:

The LRM`S like now are Absulutly OK!!!

The Problem is indirect Fire.

And the sulution with C3 neede For Target Share is Perfect

Make it as:

C3 1 Crit 1 Tonnage

Installed like.
But with 3-4 Times more Bonus for Spotting assist

Not Installed, you see only youre Locks

Forget Master and Complicated rules ( for the moment )

Yep. Or, if the target is TAGged or NARCed, you can share that one as well....the spotter paid the "spotting tax" of loading up support equipment.