517 replies to this topic

[mekabuser]

slightly lower velo for ac2 and 5. especially 5.
slightly more bullet drop.. actually alot more.

the quickdraw aspect of the ac5 boats makes them a pita.
the above in conjunction with a slight decrease in burn time for LL makes everything pretty good. If they go to ppc again, drop damage increase splash.

Gauss needs OBVIOUS A/v cues for recharge mech. Also VOlume.

srms... lol

[Cimarb]

stjobe, on 26 March 2014 - 04:36 PM, said:

So, being a programmer, I was thinking about how difficult it would be to turn ACs into burst-fire weapons (it makes a nice change from bashing my head against trying to get a very peculiar 32-bit COM DLL running on a 64-bit .Net server application).

As it turns out, it most likely wouldn't be hard at all. In fact, I doubt if it would take a programmer more than half a day's work to get it ready for testing. Here's what I figure:

All weapons have an entry in ItemStats.xml that looks like this:

<Weapon id="1020" name="AutoCannon10">
<Loc nameTag="@AC10" descTag="@AC10_desc" iconTag="StoreIcons\AutoCannon10.dds"/>
<WeaponStats Health="10" slots="7" type="Ballistic" projectileclass="bullet" numFiring="1" damage="10" heatdamage="0" impulse="0.06" heat="3.0" cooldown="2.5" ammoType="AC10Ammo" ammoPerShot="1" minRange="0" longRange="450" maxRange="1350" tons="12" duration="0.0" lifetime="10.0" speed="950" volleydelay="0" gravity="0,0,-9.8" maxDepth="10.0"/>
<EffectList>
<Effect name="Projectile" asset="objects/weapons/autocannon_shell.cgf" scale="1.0" mass="10"/>
<Effect name="ProjectileMaterial" asset="mat_ac10"/>
<Effect name="Muzzle" asset="mech_weapons.autocannon_10.muzzle_flash"/>
<Effect name="MuzzleFP" asset="mech_weapons.autocannon_10.muzzle_flash_fp"/>
<Effect name="Sound:Fire" asset="sounds/weapons:cannon:ac10_fire" float="0.0"/>
<Effect name="Sound:PostFire" asset="sounds/weapons:cannon:ac10_tail" float="0.0"/>
<Effect name="Sound:Reload" asset="sounds/weapons:cannon:ac10_reload" float="1.5"/>
<Effect name="DamageBrush" asset="Textures\\decals\\damage_brushes\\ac_20.tif"/>
<Effect name="DamageBrushType" asset="direct" float="32" float2="32"/>
</EffectList>
<Audio OnDestroyedDialogue="BB_AutoCannon_Destroyed"/>
</Weapon>

The interesting part is in the WeaponStats tag:

<WeaponStats Health="10" slots="7" type="Ballistic" projectileclass="bullet" numFiring="1" damage="10" heatdamage="0" impulse="0.06" heat="3.0" cooldown="2.5" ammoType="AC10Ammo" ammoPerShot="1" minRange="0" longRange="450" maxRange="1350" tons="12" duration="0.0" lifetime="10.0" speed="950" volleydelay="0" gravity="0,0,-9.8" maxDepth="10.0"/>

This tag defines, among other things, the damage, heat, cooldown, and duration of any beam.

To make ACs into burst-fire weapons, two new attributes would need to be added to this tag: burstsize and burstspeed. These would define how many rounds per burst the weapon has, and how fast the weapon fires the burst.

(or they could repurpose two of the tags not used for ACs, like numFiring for burstsize and duration for burstspeed)

For our hypothetical burst-fire AC/10, the WeaponStats tag might look like this:

<WeaponStats Health="10" slots="7" type="Ballistic" projectileclass="bullet" numFiring="1" damage="2.5" heatdamage="0" impulse="0.06" heat="3.0" cooldown="2.1" ammoType="AC10Ammo" ammoPerShot="1" minRange="0" longRange="450" maxRange="1350" tons="12" duration="0.0" burstsize="4" burstspeed="0.1" lifetime="10.0" speed="950" volleydelay="0" gravity="0,0,-9.8" maxDepth="10.0"/>

This would make the AC/10 fire a four-round burst, four projectiles of 2.5 damage each, at 0.1-second intervals (so 0.4 seconds for the whole burst) before going on cooldown for 2.1 seconds (making it have the same DPS as before).

The firing code would then need to be modified to fire the weapon burstsize number of times at burstspeed interval before going on cooldown, instead of just firing once (this is the part that actually would need some programmer time), and that's it.

That's the whole change needed to make ACs burst-fire.

This is very awesome stuff. The only thing I would say is, to avoid adding two more attributes, would be to have numFiring divide into duration to get the burst. For instance, with your 4-round AC10, the numFiring would be 4 and duration would be 0.4, giving a round every 0.1 seconds. Essentially the same thing you describe, but backwards a bit.

I love it, though.

[DivineEvil]

- Cut maximum range to 2x for every Ballistic, except Gauss. It's a very specific weapon, really fragile and the heaviest weapon existing. Also, it's a freaking Gauss.
- Add slight upside recoil relative to weapon damage and vertical position on a mech, the higher - the stronger. With exception for MGs, obviously. Might slightly balance the game towards arm-carried Ballistics, like Centurions or Dragons.
- Redesign UAC/5 into a fully automatic weapon following it's visual representation. Make it fire 1-damage round each 0,15 seconds, but with accumulating recoil (requiring manual correction) and jamming change rising with each round additively. 150 rounds per ton of ammo.
- Better sound effects for Gauss, maybe empty-shell ejection visuals as high Particle settings effect.
- Perhaps it's worth it to add a feature for Ferro-Fibrous Armor to splash out (disperse) the half of a damage taken by a specific component from all Ballistics into nearby components, provided they have some units to spare. Would make it at least a somehow viable alternative to Endo-Steel.

Aside from those I'm pretty ok with Ballistics as they are.

Edited by DivineEvil, 26 March 2014 - 07:20 PM.

[Wolfways]

Tastian, on 21 March 2014 - 10:04 AM, said:

Reduce Range from 3x to 2x: I wholeheartedly agree with this one. I have never understood why ACs get special treatment.

Reduce Projectile Speeds: They are fine.

Increase Cooldown: I'd like if AC2s getting increased a bit. They fire so quickly they out-dps AC5s and have close to the same dps as AC10s.

Burst Fire: Maybe. I wouldn't mind trying this out. I'd love to see an accuracy over time like (cone of fire that increases or decreases) Borderlands does this brilliantly imho.

Reduce Ammo per ton: No.

Increase Critical Slots: No.

Recoil: Possibly. I'd have to see this in action.

Ammo location requirements: Although this has always made me laugh (how do you get ammo from your right leg to your left arm?) I'll say no.

Convergence: I'd love to see this fixed. Instant convergence of pinpoint weapons is a huge problem imho. Convergence over time (aiming) would be great.

I agree with everything you said.
Also to answer your question about why AC's get the 3xrange and highest dps special treatment, i asked that question in ATD a long time ago and the answer was because you have to buy ammo in R&R. I have no idea why they weren't nerfed after R&R was removed though.

[Pjwned]

Reducing the maximum range would go a really long way towards making them balanced. Even pinpoint converging damage wouldn't be nearly as much of an issue because most ballistics are used outside of their optimal range due to not being nearly as affected by damage drop-off, so just reduce their damage at those longer ranges and the rest of their pros & cons will balance out for the most part.

[Truesight]

Ghost Badger, on 21 March 2014 - 10:11 AM, said:

Honestly, after the LRM buff, why the HELL would he be looking at nerfing autocannons? Any chance to the 'firing' aspect of autocannons I disagree with...if they HAVE to screw with it, leave the actual speed and rate of the weapons alone.

Buff SRM's...and suddenly all the weapons systems (except pulse lasers) all have a place. *facepalm PGI*

They do this because they often said, that mechs are getting killed too fast. Since AC builds are the major DDs at the moment (LRMs got buffed, but those Jagers still outperform most of the LRM Stalkers), they might see a nerf in the near future.

They are not going to touch the basic TT Stats (Slots, weight), but they might add ghost heat to AC/5 - AC/2 combos, put AC/5 heat up to 2 or so something else (projectile speed, recoil,...). ACs will not be "a stream of bullets" guns, they told us that on multiple occasions.

[Rex Budman]

Lol, they are seriously nerfing the AC's?

Ok so let me get this straight;

Increase LRM Viability from a longer range to do enough damage as any other weapon, even though they are a lock on that can hit behind certain covers.

Decrease AC range so that they cannot snipe out or snuff out the LRM mongers.

... What?

Edited by Rex Budman, 27 March 2014 - 12:12 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Rex Budman, on 27 March 2014 - 12:11 AM, said:

Lol, they are seriously nerfing the AC's?

Ok so let me get this straight;

Increase LRM Viability from a longer range to do enough damage as any other weapon, even though they are a lock on that can hit behind certain covers.

Decrease AC range so that they cannot snipe out or snuff out the LRM mongers.

... What?

LRM Max range 1,000 M
AC5 Max range 1,700 M
AC2 Max Range 2,160M
Gauss Max range 1,980 M
ER Large Laser 1,350 M Max range
REPPC 1,520 M Max range

Presently Ballistic/ ER ranges make Long range missiles a Medium range weapon. So either LRMs need a range Buff, or Direct fire needs a Nerf. And I am a direct fire fan.

[Cimarb]

Rex Budman, on 27 March 2014 - 12:11 AM, said:

Lol, they are seriously nerfing the AC's?

Ok so let me get this straight;

Increase LRM Viability from a longer range to do enough damage as any other weapon, even though they are a lock on that can hit behind certain covers.

Decrease AC range so that they cannot snipe out or snuff out the LRM mongers.

... What?

If you die to LRMs amongst all the flashing signs, blaring warnings, and 5+ seconds of very visible air time! it is completely your own fault.

Autocannons, on the other hand, have almost no air time, are near invisible, and have no warnings other than the impact against your face. The only way to even tell which direction you are getting hit from is the armor damage and small red signal on the edge of your window.

On top of those differences, LRM damage, even at its most optimal, is spread out over the target and you have little to no control over where it will hit, whereas AC damage does 100% of its potential exactly where you aim it.

LRM usage is way up lately, as it is actually a viable weapon now, but if you are dying to it, you are doing something seriously wrong, as it is the most avoidable form of damage in the game (well, aside from lava damage...).

[Veranova]

Trauglodyte, on 21 March 2014 - 10:49 AM, said:

Instead of making lists, let's at least explain why things need to change:

Range - This is an issue in and of itself when the heavier AC does more damage than the next lightest AC. We see it with the 20 vs the 10 all the way up. The Gauss Rifle is the only outlier but that is because it is tier2 tech. While velocity changes made hitting targets at range with teh 20, it isn't impossible (lots of idiots out there that like to stand still). At any rate, I shouldn't suffer when my AC is the proper range wheel house just because PGI didn't think about this. Fix it. Once that is done, you probably don't need to fix the whole 3x issue. Though, it might be that this can't be done due to how the ranges are currently.

Projectile Speeds - something needs to be done to decouple ACs from PPCs. Whether we put the AC2s and 5s on the GH table with PPCs or we drop the speeds down further. The real issue here is that the velocity of the weapons combined with the 3x range makes ACs as dangerous as they are. The lack of heat makes up for their weight but if I can reach out and bang you for 3-4 damage at 800m+ with an AC5 while pairing it up with a PPC, something is wrong.

Refire Times - this entire game is going too fast; let's slow it down if needed but this is a smaller issue (except for the AC2 which are firing way too damned fast). Putting them on the same scale as lasers and missiles would do a lot. AC10 needs to be around 3s, AC5 needs to be around 1.8-1.9, adn the 2 needs be put at a 1s cool down.

Ammo - Why are ACs getting more ammo than missiles? Makes no sense and just needs to be fixed or missiles need their ammo counts to go up. But, the biggest thing here is that you need to make measured use of your ammo instead of just spraying and praying which too many people do.

Recoil - A must, just do it.

I feel that the only thing in need of a change here is the DPS. Recycle rates are too fast on the whole, and would bring them in line with other weapons. AC's SHOULD have slightly higher DPS and energy though, because they have ammo capacity, whereas Lasers don't. So their damage needs to be a little front loaded.
Your refire point would probably be all that's needed to balance AC's a bit.

I can't agree on Ammo at-all though, ballistics weigh more than LRM's to fit, so their ammo needs to carry a few more salvo's per ton. The ammo amounts seem perfect right now, as there's a fine line between too much and too little in all the popular builds. There's always a trade-off to having more than just enough ammo. Highlanders got squeezed on this by the JJ changes for instance.

[Cimarb]

Joseph Mallan, on 27 March 2014 - 05:48 AM, said:

LRM Max range 1,000 M
AC5 Max range 1,700 M
AC2 Max Range 2,160M
Gauss Max range 1,980 M
ER Large Laser 1,350 M Max range
REPPC 1,520 M Max range

Presently Ballistic/ ER ranges make Long range missiles a Medium range weapon. So either LRMs need a range Buff, or Direct fire needs a Nerf. And I am a direct fire fan.

I am all for a range buff to LRMs, as it makes sense, but even if they extended the range, they are effectively limited by targeting range and flight time as well. While you can effectively hit with direct fire as far as you can see, you have to get a targeting lock to use LRMs, so unless you have a spotter down range, you can't fire them anyways. It would definitely help support your scouts that like to engage across the map, though.

[Joseph Mallan]

Cimarb, on 27 March 2014 - 05:57 AM, said:

I am all for a range buff to LRMs, as it makes sense, but even if they extended the range, they are effectively limited by targeting range and flight time as well. While you can effectively hit with direct fire as far as you can see, you have to get a targeting lock to use LRMs, so unless you have a spotter down range, you can't fire them anyways. It would definitely help support your scouts that like to engage across the map, though.

I am still in the LRMs are to slow camp, so you are preaching to the choir. There was research into Missiles that could go Mach 12 (4,083M/S) So MW:O missiles could go that fast if the DEVs decide its good for the game.

[ImperialKnight]

Joseph Mallan, on 27 March 2014 - 05:48 AM, said:

LRM Max range 1,000 M
AC5 Max range 1,700 M
AC2 Max Range 2,160M
Gauss Max range 1,980 M
ER Large Laser 1,350 M Max range
REPPC 1,520 M Max range

Presently Ballistic/ ER ranges make Long range missiles a Medium range weapon. So either LRMs need a range Buff, or Direct fire needs a Nerf. And I am a direct fire fan.

That is not a fair comparison. LRMs do full damage at 1000m while the other weapons do next to zero damage at max range. You need to compare it with the effective range or at least the damage done for each weapon at 1000m

Edited by knightsljx, 27 March 2014 - 06:15 AM.

[Cimarb]

Veranova, on 27 March 2014 - 05:56 AM, said:

I feel that the only thing in need of a change here is the DPS. Recycle rates are too fast on the whole, and would bring them in line with other weapons. AC's SHOULD have slightly higher DPS and energy though, because they have ammo capacity, whereas Lasers don't. So their damage needs to be a little front loaded.
Your refire point would probably be all that's needed to balance AC's a bit.

I can't agree on Ammo at-all though, ballistics weigh more than LRM's to fit, so their ammo needs to carry a few more salvo's per ton. The ammo amounts seem perfect right now, as there's a fine line between too much and too little in all the popular builds. There's always a trade-off to having more than just enough ammo. Highlanders got squeezed on this by the JJ changes for instance.

Ammo shouldn't the touched, period. I agree.

Something that a lot of people forget in regards to ballistic-energy-missile balance is WHAT is supposed to balance them. Here is how they are SUPPOSED to be balanced:

Ballistics: Low heat, high weight, ammo
Energy: high heat, low weight, no ammo
Missiles: medium heat, medium weight, ammo

Ghost heat on ballistics ruins this balance, as you now have high heat, high weight and ammo. It was put in place because PGI failed to change autocannons like they did the rest of the systems in the transfer from TT to MWO; namely front-loaded damage.

In TT, every weapon system did all of their damage to a single location once per turn. The only semi-exception is missiles, which were split in 5-damage clusters, but an LRM5, for example, did 100% front loaded damage to a single location, just like a medium laser, and an LRM20 did four 5-damage clusters, just like four medium lasers.

When PGI ported that over to MWO, they made the right decision to spread most of that damage out. Missiles now do damage in a spread, potentially a few damage to every section of a mech and potentially all of the damage in a single spot, depending on the equipment used and many other factors, such as movement, range, etc. (most) Energy weapons now do damage over a beam duration, spreading their damage over time and based upon movement as well. Machine Guns and flamers now do continuous minor damage, also spread over time and based upon movement.

The only exceptions to this positive change were autocannons, Gauss and PPCs. These three weapon systems maintained their 100% upfront, immediate and pinpoint damage delivery. While that in itself isn't game-breaking, it makes them the defacto rulers of damage delivery. The 3x range boost just made it even more unbalanced, and eventually that led to serious heat nerfs (ghost heat for most ballistics and straight heat nerfs to PPCs) and the charge mechanic for Gauss.

While this affected short-term use and extreme cases of boating, it did not fix the root issue and the playerbase has now adjusted to the new mechanics and the meta remained - AC+PPC is still the best method of damage delivery in the game, by far.

Ghost heat needs removed and ballistics need to have their range brought back in line as well as a damage delivery change of some sort to both autocannons and PPCs. Whether it is a RoF change or burst-fire/spread, I'm not picky, but I believe this would "fix" them in comparison to the other weapon systems and the balance would be immensely better.

If you want more specifics on what can be done to accomplish this, see the link in my signature.

[Joseph Mallan]

knightsljx, on 27 March 2014 - 06:14 AM, said:

That is not a fair comparison. LRMs do full damage at 1000m while the other weapons do next to zero damage at max range. You need to compare it with the effective range or at least the damage done for each weapon at 1000m

Actually that is a fair point. Have missiles drop off as they reach out past Max effective range... I can see that.

[Cimarb]

Joseph Mallan, on 27 March 2014 - 06:03 AM, said:

I am still in the LRMs are to slow camp, so you are preaching to the choir. There was research into Missiles that could go Mach 12 (4,083M/S) So MW:O missiles could go that fast if the DEVs decide its good for the game.

I don't think that would be good for the game, lol. Missile speed is currently pretty good, though it is getting a slight re-nerf to make the whiners happy. Those hyper fast missiles you mention were probably quite large and would be more of a one-shot, immense payload, instead of compact, high volume like we have on mechs. Think SAM missile as opposed to MRL.

[DocBach]

Khobai nailed it earlier in the post - drop effective ranges so that larger cannons don't do the smaller cannons jobs better.

Bullet drop for extreme ranges so players have to compensate for range.

Higher fire, less malfunction rate for Ultra AC's but a cone of fire (especially for Clan heavy caliber Ultras) - high potential DPS weapon, but spread damage.

Edited by DocBach, 27 March 2014 - 06:49 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Cimarb, on 27 March 2014 - 06:39 AM, said:

I don't think that would be good for the game, lol. Missile speed is currently pretty good, though it is getting a slight re-nerf to make the whiners happy. Those hyper fast missiles you mention were probably quite large and would be more of a one-shot, immense payload, instead of compact, high volume like we have on mechs. Think SAM missile as opposed to MRL.

SAMs
Mach4-Mach6

[Galenit]

Joseph Mallan, on 27 March 2014 - 05:48 AM, said:

LRM Max range 1,000 M
AC5 Max range 1,700 M
AC2 Max Range 2,160M
Gauss Max range 1,980 M
ER Large Laser 1,350 M Max range
REPPC 1,520 M Max range

Presently Ballistic/ ER ranges make Long range missiles a Medium range weapon. So either LRMs need a range Buff, or Direct fire needs a Nerf. And I am a direct fire fan.

2x range for ballistics would even the overall range ...

erll+ac2 for dot damage at 1000
erppc+gauss for pinpointdamage at 1000
lrms for missiles at 1000

Second thing to balance ballistics would be reducing ammo to 1/2 tt value (maybe 1x tt value) for ballistics.
Let them have their high rof and dps, but make it that you have to make your shoots count.

Third point, that counts for all ammo: Increase the explosionchance to 50%, taking ammo should be a real risk.

Edited by Galenit, 27 March 2014 - 06:50 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

The Ammo argument I cannot really comment on. I was not here when we had TT Ammo amounts... I follow the logic used, but question the standard. I like the increase, but could work around less per ton I think.