31 replies to this topic

[Wintersdark]

stjobe, on 24 March 2014 - 04:45 PM, said:

Well, I obviously disagree. I don't think indirect fire is in any way a problem, and I outright reject your premise that you get hammered harder by indirect LRM fire than even a couple of direct-fire 'mechs focusing you.

I've died 28 times since the patch, and of those only about 3-4 are by being "hammered" by LRMs (read: Me being stupid and stepping out in the open in LoS and range of three-four LRM boats). The rest are by direct-fire weaponry. And this is during the so-called "LRMpocalypse" (which is anything but).

Sorry, but I just don't see nerfing the only weapon capable of indirect fire as something that benefits the game. In fact I believe we need effective indirect fire, or everything just becomes direct-fire blandness where the AC+PPC rule supreme and unmolested.

The fact that it's also in accordance with BT lore and TT rules is just icing on the cake.

Hmmm... The problem with indirect fire is how it applies to pug matches, I think.

See, what happens is this: You have 12 mechs on your team, and most have at least one LRM rack on them. These days, it's profitable to mount even a 10 or 14 rack, because there's enough other ones around that penetrating AMS is a non-issue. A spotter lights up one target, and suddenly every other mech has only one available target. A thousand LRM's light up the sky instantly, from every mech within a kilometer.

It's instant focus-fire in a directable way, which is arguably problematic.

I'd FAR, FAR rather them nerf indirect fire slightly via increasing spread (which would be negated by a constantly held TAG beam, as that provides spread tightening bonuses as normal) than just blanket nerf LRM's because people cried. If they blanket nerf LRM's, then all LRM use suffers, which throws them back into the trash bin where they were not to long ago.



Anyways, I'm not saying that they're really a problem. Honestly, I still feel they are if anything sub-par compared to.. well, everything else.

I've died to LRM's (defined as taking the majority of the damage that killed me from LRM's) maybe half a dozen times since the patch. In 96 matches. And that's being generous. I've been well sand-blasted by LRM's here and there, and I've been pinned in place where direct-fire mechs can isolate me a couple times, but that's entirely strategic use and the whole freaking point behind LRM's. I have no objection to that at all. But this whole "crushed by LRM's" thing? It's substantially less common than being torn apart by autocannon/PPC fire.

[Ultimax]

Wintersdark, on 23 March 2014 - 09:42 AM, said:

It baffles me, there's endless tears because everyone and their dog has an LRM rack on their mech, like this is some terrible problem. Most - hell, nearly all - Battletech Mechs sport a LRM rack - they soften targets at range. Just look through our own mech's stock loadouts - nearly all of them have LRM's.

LRMs are not "softening targets at range", they are doing full kill damage.

So by your own explanation of what they are in BT, you can see that they are doing more than just softening in their current implementation.

[Asmudius Heng]

Ultimatum X, on 24 March 2014 - 06:55 PM, said:

LRMs are not "softening targets at range", they are doing full kill damage.

So by your own explanation of what they are in BT, you can see that they are doing more than just softening in their current implementation.

Only when multiple assault mechs boat them i find, but thats the issue with LRMs and indirect fire - the stackability

[tayhimself]

@Jobe & @WintersDark :
You're both correct in your assessment for the medium and high Elo levels. However, at lower Elo's (where I just started playing lights), LRM's do indeed pose a bit of a problem. They are the dominant weapon because people aren't clued in as much about advancing in cover and together. Players aren't good with the weapon systems at their disposal and even aiming with direct fire weapons. The skill floor for LRMs is lower than for other weapon types which leads to their dominance; I won't go into skill ceilings for different weapon types as that is pretty debatable.

I'm playing FS-9's, all with 1or 2 AMS, so this doesn't affect me at all but just giving a different pov that you may not come across in your gameplay.

[Universe Man]

Cover doesn't help with the speed that lrms travel now. You step out for a second and you have 12 people firing at you. Even if that's 12 lrm 10's (you usually see much more in a match)...you die in seconds. I won't discuss lrm boats, because a single one can take an enemy out in seconds.

The problem is that lrms can be fired from anywhere without LOS. Increasing the speed like they did was a very bad decision. lrms were already dangerous to anyone walking out in the open...but at least people could get from cover to cover before.

Right now, lrms are just a joke.

[Ultimax]

Asmudius Heng, on 24 March 2014 - 07:22 PM, said:

Only when multiple assault mechs boat them i find, but thats the issue with LRMs and indirect fire - the stackability

Agreed.

[Rex Budman]

Universe Man, on 24 March 2014 - 07:34 PM, said:

Cover doesn't help with the speed that lrms travel now. You step out for a second and you have 12 people firing at you. Even if that's 12 lrm 10's (you usually see much more in a match)...you die in seconds. I won't discuss lrm boats, because a single one can take an enemy out in seconds.

The problem is that lrms can be fired from anywhere without LOS. Increasing the speed like they did was a very bad decision. lrms were already dangerous to anyone walking out in the open...but at least people could get from cover to cover before.

Right now, lrms are just a joke.

Um, what? No, LRMs are perfect! They should be faster, in fact. This is the new world of MWO:Toddler Warfare.

It teaches coordination and benefits toddler motor skills or some shit I dunno w/e fk it

[Sandpit]

Rex Budman, on 24 March 2014 - 08:03 PM, said:

his is the new world of MWO:Toddler Warfare.

says the guy who can't figure out how to avoid them as opposed to the "toddlers" that can and do lol priceless

[Baltasar]

Universe Man, on 24 March 2014 - 07:34 PM, said:

Cover doesn't help with the speed that lrms travel now. You step out for a second and you have 12 people firing at you. Even if that's 12 lrm 10's (you usually see much more in a match)...you die in seconds. I won't discuss lrm boats, because a single one can take an enemy out in seconds.

The problem is that lrms can be fired from anywhere without LOS. Increasing the speed like they did was a very bad decision. lrms were already dangerous to anyone walking out in the open...but at least people could get from cover to cover before.

Right now, lrms are just a joke.

Nope cover still works, I can fire a ppc and have it hit just as the lrms are leaving their tubes, and get back behind cover and listen to my ams worthlessly fire at missiles that are hitting rocks. The key is to not poke your head out from the same place twice (like most things) unless you know you can get away with it. However, I can do the same thing and easily die from direct fire weapons because they are nearly instant hit with as fast as they travel. Boating is a "problem" with any weapon which you can easily die in "seconds" to.

Lrms could pretty much ONLY be fired at mechs in the open (Direct fire weapons are still more of a danger). I used lrms before and after nerf. It was like pulling teeth sometimes because I would fire (LOS, and my own tags within 500m) and mechs still had plenty of time to get behind a rock. It was pathetic. My hit percent with them was 37%. Now it is closer to 47% which is still pretty bad compared to my direct fire percentages. People now just can't carelessly run amuck in the open. I do think Narc might need a slight adjustment now.

LRMs can only fire without LOS only if someone else has LOS. So, kill the person that does have LOS and they can't rain missiles on you. Even then without direct LOS you aren't getting the bonus from Artemis which is a huge bonus to damage (granted 5 and 10s are a little more forgiving with lack of artemis however 1 ams turns those launchers into a joke when they are chained fired.)

The thing is, is that LRMs being sped up (which they are now being nerfed down slightly) are finally able to change the face of this stale pop-tart meta ppc/ac meta, and actually making some other mechs a little viable (although direct fire still reigns supreme you just have to be actually smart about your choice of firing position). Yay, matches are finally interesting instead of just hiding behind rocks trying to shoot people from 800 meters away with direct fire weapons!! Also, my scout/lrm light mech builds actually feel useful (albeit they still need a boost for actually doing their jobs) however, still such a hit and miss build while PUGing.

[Astrocanis]

Sandpit, on 26 March 2014 - 03:54 PM, said:

says the guy who can't figure out how to avoid them as opposed to the "toddlers" that can and do lol priceless

I'm open to being taught how to avoid them on Alpine. Because there isn't a hill besides the escarpment that gives enough protection against LRMs. Try playing a conquest on one.

Then tell me how I should avoid LRMs. Exit the match when I see Conquest and Alpine Peaks?

The LRM change has ruined the game for me. Play ECM or LRM, but you might as well not bother with anything else. Otherwise, you take your chances and hope your team has plenty of boats.

[edit] To the poster above me, you're right. Now it's "bunch at one end of the field and wait for one of them to peek out but don't do it yourself." Since the LRM "patch", the game has turned into either a "darken the sky and watch them die" fest or the most boring dinner party, replete with less than witty repartee, of any game I've ever played.

Edited by Astrocanis, 27 March 2014 - 05:14 PM.

[Sandpit]

Astrocanis, on 27 March 2014 - 05:12 PM, said:

Exit the match when I see Conquest and Alpine Peaks?

so now they're only op on one map in one mode?

This is the thing, statements like that? They're ridiculous. I can point out very specific scenarios for any kind of thing you want.

[Ngamok]

Nick Summers, on 23 March 2014 - 10:00 AM, said:

Let me think. Hmmmm. Maybe because it's not the whine post?

[/size]
And still it's more tricky than LRM shooting.

Yes, we needed another LRM thread. You could have put it in the others. I am whining.