12 replies to this topic

[AlmightyAeng]

So, in other threads I've said a number of times "Missiles feel fine to me at the moment, but they may need tweaked, we'll see." It's one of the points Appogee and I have agreed on After this weekend's games, I have seen more data...and my opinion is, accordingly, updated.

I played a fair amount of games this weekend. Solo. Usually I try to drop with a group because, frankly, it's more fun. Drinking beer by yourself while playing and having no one but the dog to laugh at your jokes isn't NEARLY as much fun. Still, I made it a point to drop solo in my 'favorite' mechs. Mainly, that meant my direct-fire support Firebrand (6 ML, 2xAC5), my Dragonslayer 'Metaman' (2xAC5, 2xPPC) and my DDC (2 LL, 3xSRM4, AC20).

So, things I noticed. Overall, my damage was WAY down, and my survivability was too. If I don't have at least 500 damage and 2 kills a match in my Firebrand, I'm failing miserably. This weekend I was FULL of fail. Several matches with no kills, and only a FEW broke 500. It was bad.

In 'Metaman' I experienced less fail. Usually the kills in this guy are somewhere between 2-4 a match, with damage usually topping out at 700 or so (by which point everyone is dead). This weekend he was averaging 450-600, with somewhere between 2-4 kills a match. He was also getting ROLLED. Most of the games this weekend were losses, regardless of individual performance. We'll get to that part later.

The D-DC. This was my very first mech...I learned to play on this thing. It's the golden oldie brawler. This weekend I had a couple of GOOD matches. One hit around 850 damage with 4 kills. My survivability was much better in this mech, but the damage was still around 500, with 1-3 kills per match, for the most part.

So, why the changes? Well, when it comes to the Firebrand, it's partly playstyle. The Firebrand I play isn't the guy who pushes. He follows alongside and puts damage down range, but has enough 'in your face' dps to take most things one-on-one. At 83 kph, he's also not slow, and repositions well.

This weekend, though, I saw, time and time again, either base turtling, or a blob that barely ever moved. Forest Colony, in particular, was bad. Base camping. Ignoring the big rocks AND the tunnel for cover. I pushed forward time and again to try and initiate SOME sort of tactics...and each time ended up walking ALL the way back to the blob (which hadn't moved...at ALL).

So, people are scared of LRM's. They have good reason. The speed they have now makes it very hard to avoid them in open spaces, and, for some assaults, much harder. As a result, there's a LOT of coverhumping...which allows the other team to spread out, and attack from two places and win.

In the Firebrand, I had fewer situations to take advantage of...and so found myself either sitting with the 'blob' (which, I admit, was boring) or pushing too hard to try and find and opening, and getting LRM'ed to death.

With the poptart, gameplay wasn't effected AS much. It's easier to take advantage of cover and shoot. LRM's are only negating poptarts when they choose poor cover to begin with. When you HAVE LRM's on your side, though, there are more open armor spots to take advantage of. This weekend...I think I had the LRM advantage, twice...and NEVER enough ECM.

That brings us to the D-DC. Knowing that NARC and TAG can give me a bad day, I played this guy conservatively. I spread the ECM love to as much of my team as possible, and only pushed around corners -- NOT in the open. The result was that I didn't do as much damage as usual. I caught a few guys with their pants down and cored them...but there wasn't a brawl to wade into and feel like a god of war. That made me a bit sad. Se la vie.

So what's causing this? Well, in part, it's what people are taking. This weekend was INCREDIBLY heavy tonnage-wise. D-DC's, missile stalker, missile battlemasters, missile highlanders and people levelling the Banshee. The sheer number of assaults was pretty insane. The remainder was largely made up of ECM spiders, ECM ravens, and ECM cicadas. A LOT of them.

There are always a few 'other' mechs...but I'd say a good 3/4 of them were either assaults boating missiles, ballistic banshees, or smaller ecm mechs. With the changes to LRM's and NARC, that means we're seeing a lot of suppressive rain to drain a teams AMS, and then a cover-hugging charge under suppressive rain to initiate a brawl to finish off the blob that didn't move...with more LRM's coming in to help.

You're not seeing a brawl in the early game, because people are afraid of a massive wave of LRM's as they are targeted (since there are so many LRM boats in game atm). They're right to be afraid, it works.

Without the brawl, direct-fire support is much weaker, and reduced to sniping. Sniping without a poptart means you're a less-mobile target while doing it...and that makes it riskier.

Conclusion? Compared to last week Monday thru Friday, it feels like the drops were a LOT heavier, and lot more missile-centric. As a result, I found it more difficult to perform at my accustomed level in my usual mechs.

In our current game setup, it feels like missiles (in the amount they are being taken, because they're very effective) either need to find a happy medium of speed (possibly 150 kph) or need slightly tweaked code for indirect fire spread. I have no problem eating the damage they do when you're directly locked, or narced, or TAG'd. That's teamwork doing it's job. The spread you get while just indirectly targeted? With the number of boats we have, it's frustrating. (Granted, I don't like the C3 system all the mechs have to begin with...I'd be much happier with lance-only radar...or even less, with only TAG and NARC allowing for indirect targeting...information warfare much? Yeah, I'm looking at some of Roland's suggestions for changing the LRM code.)

THAT SAID...what happens when PGI restricts us to 3-3-3-3 (whenever that actually happens)?

Are people gonna wanna use up all 3 assaults on boats? Are we gonna see more fragile heavy missile boats? Will things even out? It's hard to say. I feel like a large part of what made this weekend frustrating was the huge number of assault missile boats, supported by assault ECM (D-DCs) and assault ballistic boats (Banshees). It makes the nucleus of big fat mechs largely unapproachable...especially by teams that are afraid to step out from cover.

So, after having played more this weekend, I've revised my opinion some. LRM's, I think, are in a better position (the speed was abominably slow before, and it was like sidestepping toddlers on trikes, as opposed to teens on dirtbikes now) and the change of pace in meta was nice, for a bit. I think they could implemented better and are a bit too powerful when boated in 40+ salvos by multiple assaults.

I don't know if the fix for that is a reduced speed, a larger spread when indirectly fired, waiting for 3-3-3-3, or a combination of two or three of those.

Thoughts? Discuss.

[Joseph Mallan]

I was off doing the Jedi thing this weekend. But I want you to know I have more respect for your opinion that I have had for others. You gave it a good full trial, not Tuesday night Whining.

Good read sir.

[AlmightyAeng]

Joseph Mallan, on 24 March 2014 - 05:31 AM, said:

I was off doing the Jedi thing this weekend. But I want you to know I have more respect for your opinion that I have had for others. You gave it a good full trial, not Tuesday night Whining.

Good read sir.

Thanks Joe. To be honest I'll be continuing to form my opinion. PGI has said a number of times that they often 'balance forward' on their maps...I suspect it often happens for game balance, too.

Are LRM's set the way they are because PGI anticipates the Chaff module negating a lot of the rain? Did they balance them assuming a max of 3 LRM assault boats?

I'm also hoping that, given time, people will grow a little bolder in their playstyle...at the moment there's a lot of cowering going on...how much of that is the new/casual player's reaction is likely another part of the equation.

So, I've gone from "Nah, they're fine and refreshing" to "Well, they're better than they were, but I see a few problems that could be resulting from a number of reasons that may or may not get better, depending on player reaction and future game changes." As I was thinking about it, a number of examples I've given previously were comparing multiple LRM boats to multiple AC/PPC boats. Yes, you'd die just as fast...given line of sight. It's the indirect fire where the rain never stops that makes it frustrating. It's why a part of me wonders if a nerf specifically to the indirect fire mode might help.

Either way, it's still very much a "Guess we'll see" kinda situation. I'm not disheartened yet...but I definitely gotta adapt and get my scores back up. Part of that may end up as fewer XL's.

Edited by Ghost Badger, 24 March 2014 - 05:38 AM.

[TercieI]

Good thoughts, GB. I'm still largely in "wait and see" mode myself, but I felt like the half dozen drops I did last night were already much less lurm crazy than what I experienced a few days earlier. I also saw a couple of well coordinated anti-boat wolfpacks. People are adjusting.

[ScorpionNinja]

OP,

I agree and think when it comes to LRM indirect fire being allowed, ONLY if a friendly unit is using TAG or NARC to allow for indirect LRM fire, would be a step in the right direction.

I also think PGI NEEDs to change how LRMs hit mechanic. Change it to act just like Streaks currently do!
Ya know? Missles "AIM" at random "BONEs" of the targeted mech, to spread damage out?

Right now, LRMs core CTs like apples. Almost like they did back 6 months+ ago...

[tayhimself]

Dear Mr.Badger,
I found your post most informative. I would concur that the D-DC is back thanks to the new meta. I saw a large number of them on the battlefield along with ECM Ravens and Cicadas. There is also now a abundance of AMS, although I wish more people would equip it and not rely on mine.

I played a variety of builds this weekend, and found a few things myself -

• D-DC is back in action after sitting in my garage for about 6 months.
  
• The Heavy Metal is fun with LRMs and dakka.
  
• I did quite poorly in dedicated LRM boats compared to dakka builds
  
• I wish more people would carry AMS because I ran out of ammo about half my games

Kind regards.

[Felbombling]

PGI is really, really close with the LRMs now. All PGI has to do right now is find a way to incentivise direct line of sight fire over indirect fire and they'd be golden. I am almost certain that the LRM boat players would agree that firing LRMs over hills all day long at some point becomes boring. Give LRM accuracy a major negative if the spotter fires weapons of their own or loses direct line of sight to the target.

There... spotters should and do deserve a share of damage inflicted in that situation as an incentive to do it and yet another cool reason to be a scout. LRM play would be more interesting as a result, as players would actually see each other over the course of battle and, I am certain, more balanced load outs would start to pop up.

Edited by StaggerCheck, 24 March 2014 - 06:50 AM.

[SgtKinCaiD]

The problem is that everybody is trying their lrm (me included) as they were taking dust since ... maybe 6 months I think.

[Joseph Mallan]

StaggerCheck, on 24 March 2014 - 06:35 AM, said:

PGI is really, really close with the LRMs now. All PGI has to do right now is find a way to incentivise direct line of sight fire over indirect fire and they'd be golden. I am almost certain that the LRM boat players would agree that firing LRMs over hills all day long at some point becomes boring. Give LRM accuracy a major negative if the spotter fires weapons of their own or loses direct line of sight to the target.

There... spotters should and do deserve a share of damage inflicted in that situation as an incentive to do it and yet another cool reason to be a scout. LRM play would be more interesting as a result, as players would actually see each other over the course of battle and, I am certain, more balanced load outs would start to pop up.

I been making this same assertion. Putting their neck in a wringer so you & I can rain destruction deserves a share/percentage of the damage done.

[Iskareot]

Joseph Mallan, on 24 March 2014 - 05:31 AM, said:

I was off doing the Jedi thing this weekend. But I want you to know I have more respect for your opinion that I have had for others. You gave it a good full trial, not Tuesday night Whining.

Good read sir.

Hmm Jedi thing? Please do not tell me you play Swtor and pay for it? .... I will have lost all hope for you. lol

As for the LRMs... they are ****** and need to be retweaked... not a person I know doesnt know this after playing this weekend.

[Ultimax]

Great post, you really managed to sum up my experience this weekend as well.

I agree they need to be tweaked.

I think the speed should be cut down, so it is halfway between what they were pre-patch and what they are now post-patch.

I also think IDF spread needs to be much, much wider. Even with NARC or TAG.

Ghost Badger, on 24 March 2014 - 05:23 AM, said:

THAT SAID...what happens when PGI restricts us to 3-3-3-3 (whenever that actually happens)?

We'll see.

A few posters are saying this will "fix" the problem.

I don't think it will.

Sure it might curb the number full on boats we see, but your team doesn't need full on LRM boats to make this effective - you just need to out LRM the other team.


This weekend I saw nearly every weight class represented bringing some measure of LRMs to the party - even a few lights and a high number of Mediums.

Everyone wanted a slice of LRM pie and the CBills/XP they generate.

[Roadkill]

Nice post, GB. For the most part your experience matches mine. Well, except for the part where you're clearly better at the game than I am.

I played a couple of missile boats this weekend and found them to be very meh. Yeah, sure, I had an 800+ damage game, but I also had a couple of 100 damage games when the enemy just flat-out rushed us and rolled right on through.

So I switched to a missile support Raven. That's when all the missile boats on my team vanished. So I was pretty useless (2 ML, Tag, Narc + 2 tons ammo). Averaged about 150 damage/match going 1-7 due to the lack of missile boats for me to help. Very frustrating.

Finally bought and outfitted a Banshee 3E. O. M. G. Wrecked face. With a Standard 300 and no AMS. Had several games of 800+ damage. Also got rolled a couple of itme

I really don't see this "LRM meta" that everyone is whining about. Sure, there are a lot of LRMs out there now, but I just don't see them as being all that powerful. I was able to do just fine in a slug of a Mech at 51.2 kph with no AMS.

And I'm not that great at the game. Probably a little above average, but I'm not top-flight.

If I can do it... really, anyone should be able to. It's just not that difficult to make LRMs mostly useless.

[Haji1096]

Ghost Badger, on 24 March 2014 - 05:23 AM, said:

This weekend, though, I saw, time and time again, either base turtling, or a blob that barely ever moved. Forest Colony, in particular, was bad. Base camping. Ignoring the big rocks AND the tunnel for cover. I pushed forward time and again to try and initiate SOME sort of tactics...and each time ended up walking ALL the way back to the blob (which hadn't moved...at ALL).

The LRM buff combined with 12 man teams, addition of air/arty strikes, and turrets has combined to make Forest Colony very compressed. Its already a small map, but with the preponderance of missle boats, there is little room to maneuver. The best strategy is to defend your spawn area and wait till the enemy gets impatient.