775 replies to this topic

[Gyrok]

Kjudoon, on 20 April 2014 - 04:52 PM, said:

MWO was not billed as just a First Person Shooter. If it was, I'd never have played this game. It was billed as a "THINKING MAN'S FPS". That means it's not all about the pavlov twitch... or so we were led to beleive. Now that we see this isn't the case, many are leaving.

"Thinking man's" has more to do with strategy...strategy does not involve strategizing how you are going to hide and shoot from behind a ridge when something pops up on your HUD with a red box 800m out. Sorry you misread the billing.

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Wrongly so. People who think that do not play good LRM boats. I know this because I've watched them post video of how 'awesome' they are... and they're not. They're okay to decent. If you want this game only for the Export Pavlov twitch group, then you won't have 80% of the community joining them.

No, as I said, rightly so...when LRMs were doing 175 m/s I had 4 straight 1000 damage matches with 4-5+ kills. I walked away from my keyboard disgusted. Shame on you for using a weak players crutch and defending it.

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I'm sorry to hear that. My FPS is between 5-20 at best. I play LRMs because that's what my computer can handle and I do so quite well. It is also why I quit 12man play because it's all brawltardery and poptarts because LRMs are deliberately downgraded to turn down the volume of the twitch monkey's whining. LRMs require more situational awareness, patience and teamwork than every other weapon in the game. Spotters should get a LOT more XP for the work they do if LRMs were actually balanced.

He has since upgraded his connection, but every time I try to get him to come into MWO now, they just borked something. His last attempt was during LRMageddon part III and I am not sure he will ever take a second look at this game. BF4 has him well tied up now...even though he likes the idea of big stompy robots, and BT in general.

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Twitch isn't skill. It's instinct. It takes far less twitch to work SSRMs and LRMs, but takes more intelligence to use them well. More than even Gauss Rifles which is the only ballistic that takes real skill to use because you have to anticipate and use patience and awareness, not just reflex.

No, it takes skill, some players, no matter how much they practice...are not good twitch shooters. You must have hand eye coordination and good target recognition. Gauss is laughable...there is no learning curve with Gauss, the only reason it is not widely used (unless in pairs) is because the damage output is inferior to all other autocannons comparatively. Gauss actually took more skill before the charge mechanic. You had to have shot discipline then...now most noobs end up not taking bad shots they would have wasted before. That was the "thinking man's" part of the Gauss, if you will...they scrapped it.

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So? ACs are the only weapons that do pinpoint damage other than PPCs. Maybe LRMs should get Pinpoint damage too. Or should we make guided ACs? Both are possible. I know indirect ballistics should be put into the game with mech mortars which are lore and would end poptarting fast.

LRM5s are basically pinpoint damage, even without artemis. The cluster so tightly on target that even LRM10s have very little splash damage unless the target is heavily twisting. Your perception is skewed on this. Go into the training grounds and test it out. The spread does not get very big until you get to the LRM15, and that is only if you fire it out of the correct number of tubes to launch all 15 at once (which is rarely the case, another reason LRMs are broken, but I will not delve into that here and now. LRMs should HAVE to fire all at once per launcher. If you have LRM20, fire 20 LRMs, not 10 + 10 if you have 10 tubes)

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and? This is a non-argument. Cover is OP. Teamwork is OP. Thinking is OP.

Blah.

If I have LRMs from LOS, I have to wait 2 seconds for a lock, 3-6 seconds of flight time, and THEN you can pull back. You gonna do that if you can't pop out and fire and get back in cover in 2 seconds, you don't do it. So cry me a river.

Many maps do not offer much in the way of cover for LARGE portions of them. Take Tourmaline, in the open section spanning 4 square grids, or Caustic Valley which, outside of a few ridges that do not help much and one big rock, is a LRM paradise. Crimson has *some* cover, if you stay in the city only, or under the deck...even then not all buildings are tall enough. Canyon is a mixed bag, probably about 40% cover available, but when it is not, it is not easy to get to. River City has cover really well, and frozen city has some in the tall buildings/tunnel. However, notice most of the fights do not really occur in these areas too much?

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... says the QQpoptarter.

Sadly, I was not always...until PGI took away every single viable option I had on the chassis I run except to jump snipe. Where is brawling now? Scarce. What about DPS weapons like AC2? Nerfed. Beam Weapons? Well behind everything else because of the heat values. What is not touched since 2012? PPCs. Need I say more?

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Artificially nerfed weapon system is still nerfed weapon system. If LRMs were balanced, you'd see them able to win a 12man 50% of the time against the poptart AC/PPC meta. Till then, they are unbalanced.

Neg, LRMs were the cause of the jump snipe meta. LRMs should NEVER win against direct fire weapons. It should only happen under conditions of pilot error. This should not even be a question. AC/PPC weapons are rock, LRMs are scissors. The issue is, Paper is currently broken (Beam weapons), or MIA...or who knows...

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Go siddown.

Neg, as a game designer the design decisions here simply irk me to no end. I see the issue, and how to fix it, and have even offered to bounce ideas to "help" their designs...my offers have been unanswered or ignored entirely. I am honestly at my wit's end as I want this game to succeed.

[Wolfways]

Bulletsponge0, on 20 April 2014 - 03:34 PM, said:

1. Its not wrong..you don't have to expose yourself to provide effective LRM fire

I'd agree with that if you remove the word effective.
Unless you mean effective at making new/bad players cower behind cover...

Seeing as noone else has mentioned it i'll also say this.
While a target has the ability to decide how damage will be applied to them by direct-fire weapons (i.e. Do i twist or stay facing the opponent while firing back?") LRM's are the only weapon where the target has the ability to decide if he will take damage.
The ability of the target player has a huge effect on how often he gets hit by LRM's.

If you get hit by LRM's from multiple directions then your team was outplayed. It's not the fault of one weapon system.
If you get hit by LRM's a lot you need to learn to use cover (Also, saying there isn't much cover on MWO's small arena-style maps shows you need to learn to use cover.).

I'm not the greatest player by any stretch of the imagination, but i rarely get hit by LRM's and have been killed by them maybe a handful of times out of thousands of matches since closed beta (Not including the two days they actually were OP before being hotfixed)

Indirect-fire LRM's are very ineffective (except against new/bad players).
Direct-fire LRM's are ineffective compared to (almost...nearly forgot the flamer ) every other weapon.

Edited by Wolfways, 20 April 2014 - 11:34 PM.

[wanderer]

This is hilarious.

LRMs don't win against direct fire weapons. Seriously. They win against stupid.

ECM chokes LRMs. Hard. Cover (not concealment) like on Crimson or River City? Watch the LRM boat's damage plunge by 50%. Team sticking together with AMS? Laugh at the ticklefest, especially when they're trying to shoot missiles 5-6 at a time out of a small-tube launcher so you can shoot down even more of them.

In fact, generally the smarter the player, the less effective the LRM becomes and it's use becomes highly situational.

Meanwhile, the AC and PPC function almost unabated, barring the derp that was Paul "fixing" the AC/2.

I can lob the same pile of missiles and get wildly different damage scores for the same number of shots- which if I'm using direct-fire weaponry just doesn't happen to the same extent. Ping someone with lasers or ACs? I don't end up firing off X amount of AC ammo and having my damage numbers swing 100s of points depending on how much cover the target had or if his little red box blinked off two seconds before impact.

[Gyrok]

wanderer, on 21 April 2014 - 05:50 AM, said:

This is hilarious.

LRMs don't win against direct fire weapons. Seriously. They win against stupid.

ECM chokes LRMs. Hard. Cover (not concealment) like on Crimson or River City? Watch the LRM boat's damage plunge by 50%. Team sticking together with AMS? Laugh at the ticklefest, especially when they're trying to shoot missiles 5-6 at a time out of a small-tube launcher so you can shoot down even more of them.

In fact, generally the smarter the player, the less effective the LRM becomes and it's use becomes highly situational.

Meanwhile, the AC and PPC function almost unabated, barring the derp that was Paul "fixing" the AC/2.

I can lob the same pile of missiles and get wildly different damage scores for the same number of shots- which if I'm using direct-fire weaponry just doesn't happen to the same extent. Ping someone with lasers or ACs? I don't end up firing off X amount of AC ammo and having my damage numbers swing 100s of points depending on how much cover the target had or if his little red box blinked off two seconds before impact.

Ok...seriously. Every example you guys give assumes everyone is entirely incompetent as a pilot I guess. When I play LRMs, there are SOME situations where you have someone getting back into cover, but they are rare. I do not fire on a target unless I know he is too far from cover to make it back without soaking a few volleys.

How do I do that?

Know the map you are on and the terrain, which means you can recognize by range, and altitude if your opponent may be in cover or may not be. This also means that you do not spam fire LRMs...but a monkey with half a brain could likely figure that out.

Edited by Gyrok, 21 April 2014 - 06:05 AM.

[AlmightyAeng]

Gyrok, on 21 April 2014 - 06:04 AM, said:

Ok...seriously. Every example you guys give assumes everyone is entirely incompetent as a pilot I guess. When I play LRMs, there are SOME situations where you have someone getting back into cover, but they are rare. I do not fire on a target unless I know he is too far from cover to make it back without soaking a few volleys.

How do I do that?

Know the map you are on and the terrain, which means you can recognize by range, and altitude if your opponent may be in cover or may not be. This also means that you do not spam fire LRMs...but a monkey with half a brain could likely figure that out.

LRM's are most useful in large alphas, fired at a target within 400m to reduce travel-time to target, while it's engaged with another mech/in a brawl and is not actively paying attention to hiding from missiles.

The best LRM pilots know this, and actively position to take advantage of it. As a brawler who enjoys picking off targets being bombarded and blinded by missiles, I approve this message.

Edited by Ghost Badger, 21 April 2014 - 06:08 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

wanderer, on 21 April 2014 - 05:50 AM, said:

This is hilarious.

LRMs don't win against direct fire weapons. Seriously. They win against stupid.

ECM chokes LRMs. Hard. Cover (not concealment) like on Crimson or River City? Watch the LRM boat's damage plunge by 50%. Team sticking together with AMS? Laugh at the ticklefest, especially when they're trying to shoot missiles 5-6 at a time out of a small-tube launcher so you can shoot down even more of them.

In fact, generally the smarter the player, the less effective the LRM becomes and it's use becomes highly situational.

Meanwhile, the AC and PPC function almost unabated, barring the derp that was Paul "fixing" the AC/2.

I can lob the same pile of missiles and get wildly different damage scores for the same number of shots- which if I'm using direct-fire weaponry just doesn't happen to the same extent. Ping someone with lasers or ACs? I don't end up firing off X amount of AC ammo and having my damage numbers swing 100s of points depending on how much cover the target had or if his little red box blinked off two seconds before impact.

It really is amazing how consistent I am with every mech type aside from LRM mechs, where my damage and kills vary wildly.

When I run my dual AC/PPC or UAC5 Streak Boat 2D2...my damage is very consistent. Barring stupid mistakes (which happen), I am almost always hitting around 50-100 damage within a range.

Whereas when I'm running LRM's, it is just all over the damn place.

[Wolfways]

Gyrok, on 21 April 2014 - 06:04 AM, said:

Ok...seriously. Every example you guys give assumes everyone is entirely incompetent as a pilot I guess. When I play LRMs, there are SOME situations where you have someone getting back into cover, but they are rare. I do not fire on a target unless I know he is too far from cover to make it back without soaking a few volleys.

How do I do that?

Know the map you are on and the terrain, which means you can recognize by range, and altitude if your opponent may be in cover or may not be. This also means that you do not spam fire LRMs...but a monkey with half a brain could likely figure that out.

Even if what you say is true, can you honestly say that the weight of LRM launchers isn't better used by other weapons, armour, equipment, etc?

[wanderer]

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LRM's are most useful in large alphas, fired at a target within 400m to reduce travel-time to target, while it's engaged with another mech/in a brawl and is not actively paying attention to hiding from missiles.

Except when said target is smart and proceeds to hug his dance partner, leading to you plastering it with missiles instead.

And you'd still generally be more effective pumping direct-fire weapons into it at 400m in most cases to boot.

[Kjudoon]

Well, after ready Gyrok's long anti LRM diatribes, cut through the assertions of authority and victimhood, I come to the realization that the game PGI has produced is not the game he wants which is a stylistic sword fight with big stompy lazor robots. He doesn't want combat that has real world mirroring like needing to use cover, pay attention for weapons that can be guided or be thrown over cover and the win goes to the person who has the best computer and best pavlovian twitch.

Yes, some maps are terrible for one form of combat or another. Anything with large open spaces and light cover are death for anyone not using long range weapons. So what? The fact you know that shows a modicum of skill derived from playing the maps and thereby giving you the better ways to play the game. That is skill not just 'incidental information with no value'.

He cries about LRMs being opportunistic... but says nothing about how opportunistic poptarters are as well. Oh look, stupid player in the open... blamblablam. Zero difference except the LRM boat must wait 3-7 seconds to start hitting target even WITH LOS while the AC Dakka just starts up in a split second. And yes, there are dozens if not hundreds of videos proving this point.

But yet LRMs are wrong, poptarting is wrong, but you'll do it because it gives you the required seretonin levels in the brain to have fun.

There are dozens of FPS games out there for you. Go play them instead since MWO one isn't meeting your needs. Hawken's all brawl all the time looks better and has interesting maps. Knock yourself out. I'll stick here.

[Kjudoon]

Wolfways, on 21 April 2014 - 07:30 AM, said:

Even if what you say is true, can you honestly say that the weight of LRM launchers isn't better used by other weapons, armour, equipment, etc?

He doesn't care. He wants everything twitch centric short range with no real cover brawls. I recommend Tekken or some other button mash fight game or arena type FPS.

[Bulletsponge0]

Wolfways, on 20 April 2014 - 11:02 PM, said:

I'd agree with that if you remove the word effective.
Unless you mean effective at making new/bad players cower behind cover...

Seeing as noone else has mentioned it i'll also say this.
While a target has the ability to decide how damage will be applied to them by direct-fire weapons (i.e. Do i twist or stay facing the opponent while firing back?") LRM's are the only weapon where the target has the ability to decide if he will take damage.
The ability of the target player has a huge effect on how often he gets hit by LRM's.

If you get hit by LRM's from multiple directions then your team was outplayed. It's not the fault of one weapon system.
If you get hit by LRM's a lot you need to learn to use cover (Also, saying there isn't much cover on MWO's small arena-style maps shows you need to learn to use cover.).

I'm not the greatest player by any stretch of the imagination, but i rarely get hit by LRM's and have been killed by them maybe a handful of times out of thousands of matches since closed beta (Not including the two days they actually were OP before being hotfixed)

Indirect-fire LRM's are very ineffective (except against new/bad players).
Direct-fire LRM's are ineffective compared to (almost...nearly forgot the flamer ) every other weapon.

If they are so worthless and ineffective, why do so many people use LRM boats?

[Kjudoon]

Bulletsponge0, on 21 April 2014 - 04:35 PM, said:

If they are so worthless and ineffective, why do so many people use LRM boats?

I run LRMs for a few reasons.

1. My computer cannot handle direct fire and brawling. I operate with a standard 5-15fps. Can you target shoot at that rate? Not hardly. I've tried it.

2. It's more my game speed. The LRM game is slower paced and much more strategic in most cases. Without good map awareness and teamwork, you are no good as an LRM pilot. Very similar thought processes as say playing golf rather than fighting MMA.

3. I don't need to see the fear in my enemy's cockpit and have no problems killing my enemy with 'mountain class' armor between me and the enemy. The best way to kill is when the enemy is unable to shoot you back. That's just common sense.

But that's what the Esporto twitch monkeys hate. Someone has the audacity to play a game like this in this manner.

[Bulletsponge0]

Kjudoon, on 21 April 2014 - 04:41 PM, said:

I run LRMs for a few reasons.

1. My computer cannot handle direct fire and brawling. I operate with a standard 5-15fps. Can you target shoot at that rate? Not hardly. I've tried it.

2. It's more my game speed. The LRM game is slower paced and much more strategic in most cases. Without good map awareness and teamwork, you are no good as an LRM pilot. Very similar thought processes as say playing golf rather than fighting MMA.

3. I don't need to see the fear in my enemy's cockpit and have no problems killing my enemy with 'mountain class' armor between me and the enemy. The best way to kill is when the enemy is unable to shoot you back. That's just common sense.

But that's what the Esporto twitch monkeys hate. Someone has the audacity to play a game like this in this manner.

This is reasoning I can understand, especially the computer part. I'm running Mao on a laptop (a very good laptop) and I get about 40 fps...couldn't imagine trying to play with 15 fps.

I get the differing strategy too...I generally run a kintaro as a light Hunter...requires a lot of discipline. I can't run off all Willy nilly or I die fast...and I can't decide to just run up and take on an atlas under most circumstances (but I have...and won....I've got a pretty good record of taking down atlas)...I have to be careful, keep am eye on our assaults so I can assist them when the lights come...and when the time is right, join the front lines to help finish off the enemy...my game is all about awareness and timing...and I'm doing ok now for a noon with under 2.months playing time...not claiming to be good, I still suck, but I'm catching on quickly...just hate sometimes how the tiniest peek around a corner and I have lrm 400.raining down on me...

He'll, about every tenth match, I'll get so frustrated that I'll just suicide rush the nearest men boat...sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't...

[Wolfways]

Bulletsponge0, on 21 April 2014 - 04:35 PM, said:

If they are so worthless and ineffective, why do so many people use LRM boats?

They are ineffective against good players (and by good i mean those who know how to move around the map using cover) and there are a lot of bad players. I may not be the most accurate shot in the world (i'd actually consider myself an average player) but i rarely get hit by LRM indirect-fire because i use cover to move around.
As i know i can almost completely negate LRM's without ever using AMS or ECM (except on Alpine) i have to assume that the ton of players who complain about LRM's on the forum just aren't using cover.

I even use LRM's sometimes because i'm one of those weird players who plays using mechs and weapons that i like, not just the "effective" or meta builds. In fact all my mechs have their stock weapons.
I do okay using say...my CPLT-C1 but when i do get to pile a load of missiles onto a target i always think "Why is he wandering around in the open?". Having said that, i have no idea what ELO is doing. I get matches with first time players to names i recognize from the forums claiming they are "top tier" players.

[ShinVector]

When people say that LRM boating is ineffective..
Seems like threads like this says otherwise...
http://mwomercs.com/...-just-happened/

[Kyynele]

ShinVector, on 21 April 2014 - 11:14 PM, said:

When people say that LRM boating is ineffective..
Seems like threads like this says otherwise...
http://mwomercs.com/...-just-happened/

Seriously. The #1 guy in the winning team did 2 kills and 750 damage (Not really something worth telling stories to future grandchildren about, shouldn't people be able to do this much in about any assault there is?) The 2 second most effective guys (a whopping 1 match score behind) were a Cataphract 3D and a Boar's Head, not exactly known of their supreme LRM-boatism. The rest of the guys in probable LRM boats were really really mediocre.

And, 7 Atlases on Alpine? And like the thread states, they were for a large part short range brawling builds? Despite ECM, I can't think of much easier team compositions to pick off on Alpine. In any build with decent range and speed.

I'm not totally unsympathetic to your cause (I'd like to play my non-ECM lights more), but picking weak proof to support your view makes you look desperate, and thus just hurts your agenda.

I can't even figure out what your point in this is, that 6 slow as hell ECM assaults with short range weapons in the largest most open map in the game should've completely decimated a team that had some long range weapons? It's unacceptable to reach over 300 damage per match with LRMs? >_>