19 replies to this topic

[Malorish]

Hello Fellow Mechwarriors,

I've played every version of Mechwarrior, from the 1989 awesomeness on my Apple IIe up through the years. I had high hopes for this iteration when I found out about it 2 months ago, but sadly it's just not very fun for some easily fixable reasons.

1) Long range sniping and LRM boating isn't mechwarrior. The game should be based around Brawling as the key meta. It's just a lot more fun, and isn't that why we play games? I've gotten 500+ scores with both sniper and LRM boat builds (LRM boat after the newest patch), but it's boring.

Watching 24 giant robots snipe at each other from 1000 m, with nobody willing to step out and push (because they'd be dead in 1/2 a second if they did) makes my inner Mechwarrior want to cry.

2) Mechwarrior should be about brawling. I'm going to essentially repeat this. Brawling is fun. Sniping and LRM boating is boring. It feels really awful to create a "brawler build" and 3 out of 4 times come away with an early exit and a really weak score. The other times you're literally just sitting there for half the game until one side begins to run out of ammo or mechs from sniping. And when you do push, your teammates just watch you do so because they're all sniper/lrm builds!

3) The current metas are brutal on new players. The learning curve for a mechwarrior game is already stupidly steep (heat, range, torso, a zillion weapon types, chain fire, alpha, . . . .). Then you go and allow a meta that brutally shreds the poor new players before they even get to fire their weapons at something.

4) The current metas make several of the maps unfair. River city is all about being on the side of the river where the island juts out because of long range sniping (and now LRMs as well). Alpine peaks is all about being the team closest to the big mountain (whose base turrets also cover the only other approach to the top).

Anyway I'll leave it there. Personally, I'd reduce the range of A/C's, LRMs, PPCs, and ER Large Lasers by about 20% and have a steeper damage reduction curve beyond long range. I'd also have SRMs do a lot more damage (perhaps higher crit rate) . . . but I'm sure there's better people than myself to offer specific tuning suggestions.

Mostly I'd just like the game to be as fun as that old 1989 Mechwarrior I Game on my Apple IIe.

[Malorish]

This is the Launch Trailer for MWO. This is what Mechwarrior Online should look like.

Where is this game? It looks like so much fun!

[Mcgral18]

I'm a fan of this one as well:



But LRMs are meant to be viable, which they are. As are ACs and PPCs. We just need to fix SRMs to fix the triangle of balance, being Brawling, Sniping and LRMs.

Mechwarrior is meant to be mech shooting each other, not limited to long or short range. As it is, mid to long range is that standard because SRMs hitreg is borked, while ACs are currently the best brawling weapons, with some of the longest ranges in the game.

[Snowseth]

1. Wahwah. We should do this how I want.

2. Wahwah. We should really do this how I want.

3. Kind of agree. That can be mitigated by good tutorials or a good community. There just needs to be more 'for new players' information.
What should NOT happen is an 'abandon everything because I don't like it' approach.

4. True! Maybe the maps need to be revisited after the weapon tweaks have settled down.
That would actually be a really really good thing to do.

Disagree with the last point. I could see AC max range being dropped, but not much else.
Fixing the whole HSR issue would fix the SRM damage issue.
Or at least it needs to be fixed before damage changes to SRMs can be considered.

Also, this game doesn't run on an Apple IIe. Accept and adapt. Don't let "but this is they way they did it 20 years ago" continue to blind you.

[Alex Warden]

nah i think ALL playstyles should be viable... there should be as much space for brawlers as for LRM support and snipers.... it´s just that you can´t achieve a balance between those roles with how MWO works...

[Joseph Mallan]

Malorish, on 23 March 2014 - 06:23 PM, said:

This is the Launch Trailer for MWO. This is what Mechwarrior Online should look like.

Where is this game? It looks like so much fun!

That IS the Game everyone is crying about! How many one shots did you count? I saw Laser, Missile and AC spam. What was that 24 on 24 action on Caustic??? Watching combat from outside is far different than experiencing it in game.

[Roachbugg]

I have fun every time i play just have some rough spots but that happens in any game i have ever played. Since world of tanks is dead to me and the planes in warthunder bore me because i am a jet jockey not a propeller head Mwo has been my home for many moons now and i must say i love it dearly is it perfect? NO but neither is my boyfriend and I still love him too.

[Shae Starfyre]

I laughed so hard watching the trailer.

Aside from what looks 24 man teams, this is exactly what we got!

PPC, AC, Missiles, lots of Medium Lasers, and lots of Mechs exploding.

What did I miss?

[ApolloKaras]

Malorish, on 23 March 2014 - 06:14 PM, said:

Hello Fellow Mechwarriors,

1) Long range sniping and LRM boating isn't mechwarrior. The game should be based around Brawling as the key meta. It's just a lot more fun, and isn't that why we play games? I've gotten 500+ scores with both sniper and LRM boat builds (LRM boat after the newest patch), but it's boring.

Quick question what Mechwarrior game have you played that you didn't use LRMs? They have always been a force to be reckoned with. Even in tabletop... I'm having a tough time following your post. I'm not sure if you are making a blanket statement about all the MW games since '89 that all of them have never been about lrm/snipe, or if you are just speaking about MWO only.

[Artgathan]

Joseph Mallan, on 24 March 2014 - 03:59 AM, said:

That IS the Game everyone is crying about! How many one shots did you count? I saw Laser, Missile and AC spam. What was that 24 on 24 action on Caustic??? Watching combat from outside is far different than experiencing it in game.

Aphoticus, on 24 March 2014 - 05:08 AM, said:

I laughed so hard watching the trailer.

Aside from what looks 24 man teams, this is exactly what we got!

PPC, AC, Missiles, lots of Medium Lasers, and lots of Mechs exploding.

What did I miss?

I'm pretty sure they just combined two 12 man teams for the cinematic charge (and then flipped the view 180 degrees to make it look like there's another force of 24 mechs charging into battle). You'll notice that AMS within the group is firing even though there are no missiles incoming - they must be firing at the outgoing missiles, which means that there's enemy units firing LRMs nearby.

All of that said, the trailer does look pretty sweet. Sometimes I wonder if the move to 12 v 12 (instead of 8 v 8) actually hurt the game (the increased amount of mechs on the field causes mistakes to be amplified / punished more than in the smaller games). If only they could get the lances to spread out more... Isolated lance battles are usually my favorite moments in MW:O (the fighting and maneuvering is more intense and fast-paced than in the larger fights IMO).

[Malorish]

Mcgral18, on 23 March 2014 - 07:00 PM, said:

I'm a fan of this one as well:



But LRMs are meant to be viable, which they are. As are ACs and PPCs. We just need to fix SRMs to fix the triangle of balance, being Brawling, Sniping and LRMs.

Mechwarrior is meant to be mech shooting each other, not limited to long or short range. As it is, mid to long range is that standard because SRMs hitreg is borked, while ACs are currently the best brawling weapons, with some of the longest ranges in the game.

I agree that LRMs should be viable, as should support roles like long range support. But IMO the game currently errs hugely on their side and against brawlers. As it stands, the game looks more like WWI trench warfare than 31st century combat.

To me it's about making the game fun more than protecting the "niche" of sniping/LRM boating (yes I know there are some players who feel their personal skill in those areas is very high, and want to defend those niches as being superior because it keeps them on top). I'd rather they err on the side of Brawlers being dominant than what we have now.

Because really, if we want to bring in reality, most of these fights would be resolved with a single tactical nuke launched from high orbit.

[Malorish]

Saxie, on 24 March 2014 - 05:13 AM, said:

Quick question what Mechwarrior game have you played that you didn't use LRMs? They have always been a force to be reckoned with. Even in tabletop... I'm having a tough time following your post. I'm not sure if you are making a blanket statement about all the MW games since '89 that all of them have never been about lrm/snipe, or if you are just speaking about MWO only.

In particular, LRMs were overpowered in MW II and made the game quite boring until I put in a self-imposed penalty of not being able to use them. (I did the same thing in MW I about legging mechs, and 1-shotting the Battlemasters in the head).

As I said before, LRMs should be a viable weapon system (as should A/Cs, PPCs, ER LLs), but right now the balance is entirely flipped in the direction of long range sniping and LRM boating (also huge alphas with pinpoint directed damage - something that doesn't exist in the tabletop and has always been a problem in the games). I'm arguing personally that isn't fun for myself or a lot of players.

I'm sure others have different opinions and offer theirs.

I'll let the Devs decide what's best for the game.

[Eddrick]

All roles should be viable. So, people can play regardless of playstyle.

The tradeoff for Brawling vs Sniping should be more damage in a shorter amount of time. I expect that brawler to pay me back the damage I did to him at range. But, you also shouldn't be able to bull rush the Sniper and live. LRMs already have the tradeoff of spreading damage around vs being able to controle where you do the damage. Someone should be able to lost longer against the spread damage vs being able to controle where you do damage.

[Sandpit]

This isn't fun anymore because PGI has consistently watered it down.
Consistently alienated teams and organized groups
Consistently made adjustments based on piss poor data interpretation
Consistently done everything that can to hand out easy buttons
Consistently done NOTHING to enhance the game for ANYone (pug or premade or otherwise) that wants a more challenging game.

There's NOTHING wrong with have an easier "mode" in a game. Some people enjoy that, some people are more comfortable with that. That's fine. Know what just about every single other game out there does? They offer that mode BUT they ALSO offer a mode that increases the difficulty for those who want more of a challenge. Regardless of personal opinion on how "good" they are
CoD and Battlefield sell millions of copies EVERY year, without fail, even when they ship a broken game and spend a week patching it just so it can be played. MILLIONS EVERY YEAR.
Think they do that by only catering to one section of their player population?

[tigerija]

Yeah, all true. But probably wont change. Didnt play this game for months now... Gonna give it a try for few days again. Gets boring fast.

[Sheraf]

Malorish, on 23 March 2014 - 06:14 PM, said:

Hello Fellow Mechwarriors,

I've played every version of Mechwarrior, from the 1989 awesomeness on my Apple IIe up through the years. I had high hopes for this iteration when I found out about it 2 months ago, but sadly it's just not very fun for some easily fixable reasons.

1) Long range sniping and LRM boating isn't mechwarrior. The game should be based around Brawling as the key meta. It's just a lot more fun, and isn't that why we play games? I've gotten 500+ scores with both sniper and LRM boat builds (LRM boat after the newest patch), but it's boring.

Watching 24 giant robots snipe at each other from 1000 m, with nobody willing to step out and push (because they'd be dead in 1/2 a second if they did) makes my inner Mechwarrior want to cry.

2) Mechwarrior should be about brawling. I'm going to essentially repeat this. Brawling is fun. Sniping and LRM boating is boring. It feels really awful to create a "brawler build" and 3 out of 4 times come away with an early exit and a really weak score. The other times you're literally just sitting there for half the game until one side begins to run out of ammo or mechs from sniping. And when you do push, your teammates just watch you do so because they're all sniper/lrm builds!

3) The current metas are brutal on new players. The learning curve for a mechwarrior game is already stupidly steep (heat, range, torso, a zillion weapon types, chain fire, alpha, . . . .). Then you go and allow a meta that brutally shreds the poor new players before they even get to fire their weapons at something.

4) The current metas make several of the maps unfair. River city is all about being on the side of the river where the island juts out because of long range sniping (and now LRMs as well). Alpine peaks is all about being the team closest to the big mountain (whose base turrets also cover the only other approach to the top).

Anyway I'll leave it there. Personally, I'd reduce the range of A/C's, LRMs, PPCs, and ER Large Lasers by about 20% and have a steeper damage reduction curve beyond long range. I'd also have SRMs do a lot more damage (perhaps higher crit rate) . . . but I'm sure there's better people than myself to offer specific tuning suggestions.

Mostly I'd just like the game to be as fun as that old 1989 Mechwarrior I Game on my Apple IIe.

have you try a balance build? with mid range, long range, and LRM? That works pretty well
You can charge the enemy while shooting missiles, once you too close use the laser or AC

[Niklaus Kotare]

EDIT: Deleted redundant posting

Edited by Herc Conley, 24 March 2014 - 02:51 PM.

[Niklaus Kotare]

Alex Warden, on 23 March 2014 - 09:55 PM, said:

nah i think ALL playstyles should be viable...

You can never have all play styles be viable when every match you are forced to roll your teammates for each fresh PUG. People wonder why both sides basically prefer snipe builds they can hide in the rear with and tentatively pop repeatedly until ::<vomits>:: "the (#%&@ing) rain" slows? There's no continuity from match to match, and trying to get 12 mechs moving in the same direction is an exercise in futility.

I mean seriously-

1. Is stepping forward round after round struggling just to achieve 40-75% consensus with even the most basic notion of teamwork fun?

2. Is it fun when roughly 80-100% of the lights dropping with you almost invariably abandon the sortie to run off to do three or more different things (other than keep pace with and support the assaults) which almost always results in them being either the quickest to die or the one or two mechs to die alone at the end of an embarrassing team meltdown?

3. Is it fun when more than half of the slower mechs fit long-range/sniper builds and abandon the sortie by hitting their brakes to push and shove from the best cover and shoot each other in the backs - or much worse - climb into your lower-rear-center-torso to get you primary'd and alpha'ed and obliterated by 3000 LRMs (the gods must surely hate you hell-fire) while they push and shove trying to get shots off through your dead carcass?

4. Is it fun to spend almost as much real cash as most other whole game titles cost for a spiffy "hero mech" only to have that mech beaten into scrap iron in less than a month by the same chimpanzee responsible for game balance that also predicts the annual winner of the Superbowl and which political candidate will win each US presidential election? Well, the chimp is in fact a lot more on point with the Superbowl and the election results.

Note: It's supposed to be a light and fluffy almost harmless Nerf bat you silly chimps, not a 10,000 metric ton Dwarven Mithril Warhammer of Legendary Fun-Shattering in some grand-scale epic whack-a-mole(mech) machine where all mechs get beaten to dust every time they lift their heads slightly above the level of absolute suckdom and mediocrity.

5. Is it fun continuously struggling to adapt and overcome to an ever-changing Dev-imposed meta that swings more violently than Carrie Fisher's bipolar moods when she's off both the wagon as well as her meds? (I still love ya Carrie forever).

Yeah, it's still (a little) fun, but jeesh, you're out of beta for awhile now, so how about a little balance for a change in our game balance?

And $500 for pixels - really? That's double what I would pay for a prost itute to **** me (hah - I actually just typed only asterisks), and at least THAT might feel good for a couple minutes. Why not just abandon all your little remaining class and start auctioning off extra cool custom mechs on Ebay like the Russian haxors make a living doing while they're killing all the other online games?

And the mechs you ask real money for can't even change their appearance - duh-fu?!

And why aren't you trying to sell us anti-nerf bait-and-switch pixel insurance so we can get refunds in the first year after purchase when you suck all life out of our pretend robots?

For $500, that mech should not only come with every existing and future camo enabled, (not absolutely locked to some unique retarrdated "I'm the ****** that bought this mech you're going to break in less than a month" paint pattern) but throw in a couple of bonus hand-jobs too. We all know that everyone that is buying one of your golden epeen really needs the real life stroking...
I mean...
they're $500 pixels...
they're going to be gold and stuff.

All this awkward balance overhead for a random map, random team generated PUG model - what's going to happen if we ever finally get any continuity from progressive inter-faction chained scenarios where the results of each match will mean something more than its effect to your swollen KDR?

Okay, that's enough rage for one post. Have a nice and nifty awesome my little pony day everyone...
with extra golden pixels on top!

Edited by Herc Conley, 24 March 2014 - 02:53 PM.

[Lightfoot]

I disagree about MechWarrior being brawler-centric. I too played MW2-MW4 in the online leagues and I never saw players take brawler weapons to open maps unless it was C-5 (ballistics-only). Anytime players could force short range on a map they would because you have too. But the same is true of long range when the map forces long range encounters. Taking all AC20 and MLAS to a long range map was certain doom.

That is how MechWarrior is played. Your tactics will be based on the map and not what one prefers or thinks is the MechWarrior favorite tactic. As for brawling that's all we had in the closed beta and it was so boring and repetitious. You could go to any map and huggy mechs won every time.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

Still think they should have kept it closer to the MW5 concept that ultimately became MWO
Even the UI, although obviously simplified for the trailer, looks much better than the solid piss colored lines all over the screen that we have now. Also, the scale actually looks great vs MWO which is kind of a mixed bag at best.