54 replies to this topic

[CarlBar]

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[color=#959595]Also a reworking of the heat system to encourage greater sustained dps (significantly higher dissipation/sec) and lowered/fixed heat cap (I would think no mechs should get more than 30-40 heat total so boating becomes less of an issue, maybe with added penalties to gettin close to overheating like reduced targeting computer efficiency, slower refire rates, etc.) may alleviate the disparity enough such that FLD weapons can remain as-is. [/color]

This is by far the biggest balance issue in practice.

TT has very harsh penalties for generating more heat than you can disperse, but makes running heat neutral much easier because heatsinks dissipate roughly 2.5 times the heat that MWO ones do, (more for doubles).

To put the TT heat system into perspective a 6 PPC stalker with the maximum i could build in of 16 DHS's would after firing them be left with 28 heat built up, that means it's nearly certain to cook off any ammo it is carrying, and it is even more certain to shut down. Even assuming that doesn't happen next turn it takes -75KPH movement penalty, (Actually -50 walking KPH, but running is 1.5 times that), and such a huge accuracy hit it won't get any hits next turn even if it does fire.

But there's no chance PGI will acknowledge their mistake and fix it at this point.

[darrencheesecake]

The AC nerf is going to be the focus of the next patch as there's something that doesn't feel right about them. I believe that there needs to be added a recoil and decrease in accuracy mechanic added to the main AC's. The are hard to use at close range to hit lights (especially with lag) but they excel at long range. The decrease in accuracy only has to be small (the ballistic could hit anywhere that is the size for the cross-hair reticle at 1000m for each AC) if they put a recoil in then the AC2 would have the least and the AC20 would have the most.

Just to make the mechs feel a bit more defined, adding a mechanic to the gyro system to make Assults have the most reduction of damage recoil when a ballistic hits them (30%-40%) and lights have the least. Hopefully this would make assults feel more bad ass because they would feel like they would take more of a beating and lights would feel more fragile if this mechanic was to be added.

[Joseph Mallan]

Pygar, on 27 March 2014 - 03:41 PM, said:

Many of the balance issues MWO has were handed down from the original game itself, and then compounded by the fact that the game happens in real time, instead of being turn based.

Converting from Turn Base to Real Time only has a problem when you try to stick with handwavium duration. Back when I read a "Combat turn was 10 seconds, as a Marine Grunt I LMAO. 5 seconds is plenty of time to move, fire and vent heat and still feel like it is the way TT was played.

[Wolfways]

Joseph Mallan, on 27 March 2014 - 09:14 AM, said:

You say that like I want my opponent to be my equal. you didn't think I spend over two years learning how to fight the OP Metas cause I wanted a fair fight didja?

Why can't we clone you!?

I had hoped to one day pilot a Mad Dog (or Stone Rhino if it ever happened) and with my small team of Clan players fight IS pilots who wanted to defeat the Clans.
Unfortunately in MWO there are few who care about House/Clan loyalty or teamwork, and tbh with pulse lasers and LRM's my Mad Dog won't be much of a threat to anyone except noobs

[Joseph Mallan]

Wolfways, on 28 March 2014 - 07:27 AM, said:

Why can't we clone you!?

I had hoped to one day pilot a Mad Dog (or Stone Rhino if it ever happened) and with my small team of Clan players fight IS pilots who wanted to defeat the Clans.
Unfortunately in MWO there are few who care about House/Clan loyalty or teamwork, and tbh with pulse lasers and LRM's my Mad Dog won't be much of a threat to anyone except noobs

A Stone Rhino for Joe round 3060something... That is when the gang writing the BattleCorp Fiction with me (More like I wrote with them) Gave me a Stock Stone Rhino! I love that Mech!

[topgun505]

This. Joe came very close to the true root cause of the problem with MWO with his statement.

The level of customization available in the mech lab.

The moment you give a player the ability to optimize a mech to the amount that we currently have in MWO you will invariably run into balance problems like we have now. It's not hard to balance a single weapon vs another but when you have to take into consideration the amount and types of hardpoints like we have now the task is nearly impossible to do well.

The only way to fix this are with 2 methods.

1. Disallow customization of non-omnimechs. Period. You just have to use a chassis as is and do the best with what you have. Mind you the heat system would probably have to be adjusted in order for this to work.

2. Add hardpoints size limits. You can take a weapon off a stock build. But not only are you limited to what class of weapon you can put there, you can only put the same size or smaller weapons in that slot.

Thus if you have a short range missile based brawler mech you can't turn it into a LRM-20 boat (for example).

Anything short of either of the above will be, at best, band-aid fixes that do not address/resolve the underlying problems and the meta shifting will continue.

Joseph Mallan, on 27 March 2014 - 08:55 AM, said:

Since when is 1 PPC Overpowered?
Or 1 LRM?
Or 1 Auto Cannon?
Or one Laser?

Edited by topgun505, 28 March 2014 - 08:30 AM.

[Tw1stedMonkey]

darrencheesecake, on 27 March 2014 - 11:38 PM, said:

Hopefully you weren't acusing me of been a douchbag because I wasn't. Theres a massive difference between a whining about this game and sharing your honest opinion. Bysides, I wasn't complaining I'm just giving everyone a breif history lesson of this game. I didn't mind the changes I just missed the expience that I felt when I first started playing this game a year ago. This isn't a rant and I was merely expressing my thoughs (on the original LRMs, not suggesting changes) and ideas on little changes (PPC splash damage that only effects ECM) which don't seem like they make anything unbalanced.

However I do known that some of these people who generally compain over the quantity of number of particular weapons a player might equip then assume that it's OP, which is clearly wrong becauses there is a high quantity of weapons than a normal person would equip. Sorry if I acquesed wrongly, I'm meant no offence.

Sorry, I was not referring to anything you posted, I was referring to the replies acting like a reduction of the skill gap between good and average players is the worst thing that could ever happen to a game. I mean who would benefit from that?! well, aside from PGI getting increased revenue from drawing and retaining more players and the majority of players able to feel more competitive and as such likely to have more fun.

EDIT: speaking of which why isn't PGI advertising this anywhere other than the spammy facebook ads?? I would never have known about this if not for a friend telling me and every single other person i have talked to has never heard of it.

Edited by Tw1stedMonkey, 28 March 2014 - 09:29 AM.

[Quick n Fast]

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Darrencheesecake:

I didn't mind the changes I just missed the expience that I felt when I first started playing this game a year ago.

says hes been playin a yr.. has to hide on his 2month old account to make posts...

[Voivode]

Honestly, the weapons are pretty well balanced as far as numbers go. On paper they are fine. There are two lingering issues that allow certain weapons and weapon combos to do better than they should.

1) A primary brawling weapon (SRMs) has serious game engine issues. This is hindering other close in weapons because many close in builds would require SRMs as, at the very least, a complementary weapon to an AC/20 or something similar.

2) Situations. All the "meta" builds for a while now have been ranged. Back when there were few maps and two of them were forest colony and river city, the meta focused on the brawl. Since, PGI has opted to release many wide open sniper havens that have pushed the game towards long range meta after long range meta. Part of the reason the weapons seem unbalanced is because most maps are "donut" style maps with a big open area in the center. This favors long range, pinpoint builds. Until we get a few tight, urban maps in game, expect the meta to stay long range and limited.

[Tw1stedMonkey]

Voivode, on 28 March 2014 - 10:24 AM, said:

Honestly, the weapons are pretty well balanced as far as numbers go. On paper they are fine. There are two lingering issues that allow certain weapons and weapon combos to do better than they should.

1) A primary brawling weapon (SRMs) has serious game engine issues. This is hindering other close in weapons because many close in builds would require SRMs as, at the very least, a complementary weapon to an AC/20 or something similar.

2) Situations. All the "meta" builds for a while now have been ranged. Back when there were few maps and two of them were forest colony and river city, the meta focused on the brawl. Since, PGI has opted to release many wide open sniper havens that have pushed the game towards long range meta after long range meta. Part of the reason the weapons seem unbalanced is because most maps are "donut" style maps with a big open area in the center. This favors long range, pinpoint builds. Until we get a few tight, urban maps in game, expect the meta to stay long range and limited.

1) An srm fix should have taken precedence over UI 2.0 work or at least apply a quick band-aid fix to make them hit more than half the time.
2) This may be alleviated with the launch module as you will be able to select your mech after seeing which map is chosen if I am remembering correctly. I think being able to select from a group of like 4 mechs after seeing which map it was on should have been in from the start since certain maps cripple the effectiveness of certain mechs. Then again certain weapon systems are too powerful on certain maps *cough* lrms+caustic * cough* but that just means the map or weapon system needs a tweak. I would add significantly more cover in the 300m wide death zone ring around the crater.

Edited by Tw1stedMonkey, 28 March 2014 - 11:34 AM.

[CarlBar]

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[color=#959595]This. Joe came very close to the true root cause of the problem with MWO with his statement. [/color]

[color=#959595]The level of customization available in the mech lab.[/color]


[color=#959595]The moment you give a player the ability to optimize a mech to the amount that we currently have in MWO you will invariably run into balance problems like we have now. It's not hard to balance a single weapon vs another but when you have to take into consideration the amount and types of hardpoints like we have now the task is nearly impossible to do well. [/color]

People posting this kind of bull really hack me off.

Seriously go grab Skunkwerks, go setup an 80 ton chassis with 3/5 movement with IS tech and then taking the weapons available in game try breaking the system with absolutely unlimited customization. The only things that end up overpowered are ML.

TT has a really good weapons balance, but that balance is built on a 10 second cycle time, a much lower accuracy average, an inability to force all damage onto single target points on mech's, and a totally different heat scale. I've got a much longer essay being written on this but the long and short is that PGI broke everything when they cut the average cycle time from 10 to 4 seconds whilst allowing far higher than TT accuracy, with pinpoint meta and a heat scale that severely under-powers low heat weapons. Without ghost heat no one would touch anything but ML's, LL's, and maybe ERLL's/PPC's.

[topgun505]

Clan 75 tons with endo, xl, 4/6/6 movement (thanks to improved jump jets), max armor, 17 dhs allowing it to never overheat with 3 LPL guided by targeting computer.

Can do obnoxious builds with IS tech as well.

Again. Unlimited customization (in TT as well) WILL result in some unbalanced builds.

CarlBar, on 28 March 2014 - 12:24 PM, said:

People posting this kind of bull really hack me off.

Seriously go grab Skunkwerks, go setup an 80 ton chassis with 3/5 movement with IS tech and then taking the weapons available in game try breaking the system with absolutely unlimited customization. The only things that end up overpowered are ML.

TT has a really good weapons balance, but that balance is built on a 10 second cycle time, a much lower accuracy average, an inability to force all damage onto single target points on mech's, and a totally different heat scale. I've got a much longer essay being written on this but the long and short is that PGI broke everything when they cut the average cycle time from 10 to 4 seconds whilst allowing far higher than TT accuracy, with pinpoint meta and a heat scale that severely under-powers low heat weapons. Without ghost heat no one would touch anything but ML's, LL's, and maybe ERLL's/PPC's.

[CarlBar]

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[color=#959595]Can do obnoxious builds with IS tech as well.[/color]

Then do it and show me. Clan based builds show nothing because clans are inherently broken by our standards. The again the build you posted isn't actually obnoxious by IS standards either. Pretty much every build below packs similar punch once you account for range differences. The real difference with that build is mobility, but that's not part of the weapon balance discussion. Hence why i used equal weight on weapons in the examples below.

I sat down with IS tech and couldn't break it. I basically took the Awesome 8Q as my starting point, took off the actuators and tried to see what i could do to break it and with every weapon we currently have in game except for ML, and in a SHS environment, Gauss.

Here, i'll quote the builds section from my essay at you.

Quote

Now for the starting build, the really basic 3 PPC + 30 Single HS build. 30 damage at decent ranges, but with a minimum range.

This compares well with a quad LL build which is slightly lighter, does slightly more overall damage, and has slightly worse range, but no minimum range and 4 shots instead of 3 with less damage more shots spreads the damage.

LRM’s can pack in twin LRM 20’s plus an LRM 10 on the same tonnage with enough ammo and HS’s. Whilst more damaging on paper at first, the cluster hit’s table will remove much of the advantage and the extremely distributed damage takes away any remaining damage per volley advantage, though it does have better range bands at the expense of greater minimum range.

SRM’s can get even more extreme damage per volley numbers with 6 SRM6 packs plus Ammo & HS’s on the same weight, but again the cluster hit’s table will strip much of the advantage in raw damage and the distributed nature will strip any remaining advantage compared to equally short range alternatives. Overall damage will however be noticeably higher than the PPC build, or other long range builds.

Treble AC10’s can deal the same damage at slightly shorter range bands, but with no minimum range. Again a fairly even trade-off.

Double AC20 actually works out slightly lighter with better damage output, but noticeably worse range, albeit with no minimum. What keeps it viable ultimately is that enormous increase in damage concentration an AC20 brings.

That’s all the equivalent builds with basic level tech. But that still leaves a few builds un-mentioned. So to touch on them:

AC2 & AC5 builds don’t come close, AC 5 can only peak at 25 damage as apposed to 30 with identical range bands and minimum range. Given the lower damage and lower damage concentration with no upside in sight the AC5 is just outside the equivalency range. The AC2 on the other hand is irredeemably awful. Whilst possessed of a significant range band improvement, you can only drag 12 damage out of them and that’s going to spread itself. It’s just not remotely in the viable area.

UAC5 is actually a comparable build with 4 UAC’s in the place of 5 Standards you get 40 damage at equivalent weight and range band’s with equivalent minimum’s. On the other hand it is going to spread the damage more and it does have the Jam chance. The reason it’s here is that UAC’s are really double heatsink equivalent tech level, not single.

LBX10’s are slightly smaller and lighter than standard AC10’s and have slightly better range band’s, but overall it’s a very graded improvement and I’d still call them comparable in the boat builds above, though they are capable of pulling ahead under some specific circumstances. Bear in mind if the above sounds odd that in TT cluster shot is an option, but you can fire bog standard AC10 rounds from them with the benefit of the extra range with no issues. Again though LBX are really above standard AC’s tech level wise.

Streak 2’s are about even to SRM6 builds, you can only get 2 SSRM2’s for each SRM6, but because of the cluster hits table on the non streaks the average number of hits is equal if not slightly better for the streak’s. Again though advanced beyond basic tech.

Gauss are the first real stand outs. Twin Gauss packs the same punch as triple PPC, but it’s more concentrated and a LOT lighter whilst leaves a full 8 dissipation free on the minimum 10 standard heat sinks. They also have better range bands than the PPC’s. Whilst I’m not sure where they technically fall on the tech scale, performance wise their another weapon that is much more in line in a double heat sink environment than a single heatsink one.

Small Laser are really awesome damage per heat and damage per ton, but their super short range really makes them quite weak.

Medium Lasers are a whole other boardgame, (no pun intended), however having one of the best damage to weight ratios in the game and a really good damage to heat ratios too. In fact they’re so good that you can build a 65 damage setup in the place of the triple PPC build with single HS’s. Even accounting for the spread effect that’s far and away ahead of anything else out there.

I also did DHS builds but i didn't write that lot down so i don't have easy comparisons to hand, but Gauss balanced out with ML remaining the only OTT build. I also threw together a few quick mixed builds and got very similar final results as well.

[Lykaon]

Joseph Mallan, on 27 March 2014 - 06:04 AM, said:

Cause when you can bring lots of weapon X and not weapon Y weapon X looks OP.

Except if the reason for tons of X weapon is X is superior to Y then X is the best choice and Y is a poor substitute for X.

X weapon has low heat,high rate of fire,superior DPS and applies damage using a front loaded pinpoint mechanic but X is a bit heavy and requires ammo.

Y is very high heat,shorter range,inferior DPS and applies damage over a brief duration allowing for targets to react and dispurse damage.yet weapon Y does not require ammo but does requires nigh unattainable amounts of space and/or tonnage to reach the heat efficency of weapon X by adding heatsinks.

Now choose AC5 (X) or large laser (Y)

[Sephlock]

Joseph Mallan, on 27 March 2014 - 06:04 AM, said:

Cause when you can bring lots of weapon X and not weapon Y weapon X looks OP.