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Why Didn't The Clans Use More Of Their Reserve Forces
Started by _Comrade_, Mar 28 2014 03:48 PM
26 replies to this topic
#22
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Posted 31 March 2014 - 09:36 AM
Its to bad clan Star Adder over bid because they didn't underestimate the inner sphere like the others and therefor were not allowed into the invasion.. They were one of the only clans that had constantly been training since the beginning for the invasion, and training against inner sphere tactics... Would have guaranteed Terra.
#23
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Posted 31 March 2014 - 10:13 AM
Why didn't the Clans use more of their Forces?
Mostly it comes down to the fact that none of them had fought a real war, at least as the Inner Sphere defines a 'war', since the annihilation of the not-named at the earliest. Arguably the last 'real' war they fought (and certainly fought as a whole) was Operation Klondike. As a result they completely missed the strategic realities of what a war in the Inner Sphere would be like.
The Clans style of warfare had obviated the need for Strategic/Tactical intelligence since everyone knew what was being brought to a fight, and where it would be held. With the loss in intelligence gathering came a loss in intelligence analysis beyond was seen on the battlefield. The Inner Sphere's tactical advantages (a much more 'free' tactical doctrine, combined arms doctrine, artillery in common use [Clan Wolf had the Naga which is an awesome platform but rarely made use of it and no one else did], alternative ammunition loads for autocannons and missile racks, deeper magazines than most Clan designs, etc) were insufficient to overcome those of the Clans (superior mechs and aerospace fighters, Omni-technology, powered armor). That is what the Clans saw, and most thinking on intelligence matters stopped at that point.
The Clans were, largely, incapable however of perceiving the strategic advantages the Inner Sphere possessed (sheer size, higher absolute size of military, shorter logistical chain) and how they balanced against the disadvantages the Clan's possessed (smaller size, extended supply lines, etc).
The Clans' way of warfare also bite them, repeatedly, in the ass. Clan Wolf, as the Clan of Kerensky, was 'gifted' with the right to participate without Trial. All the other Clans had to bid away forces and fight for that right. The Smoke Jaguars had an opening bid of something like a dozen galaxies IIRC, but its invasion force was a third that. The others were similar.
Battles amongst the Clans tended towards sharp, short affairs as seen in most of their mech designs having only very limited ammunition. This shows in their initial planning that had each invasion 'wave' end in a period to resupply and refit. Only later did Ulric Kerensky change the deposition of Clan Wolf to include forward-staging supplies so that as each wave ended the next would commence.
Why?
Because the greatest strategic asset the Inner Sphere had was its size. The Clans had a higher percentage of their population in uniform, but the IS's size meant that its military as a whole was larger. If the Clans could be delayed long enough it would have a chance to develop new technologies (already well on its way), refit their war-gear (the FWL had basically become the arms-manufacturer of the IS), and develop new anti-Clan tactics (Planting required the Wolf saKhan to break his bid and pull in a full extra cluster, Wolcott, Rasalhague with Gn. Mansdottir's response of using anything including 'vilest trickery'), and move additional forces to the front (Luthien comes prominently to mind).
It never came down to the Clans as a whole breaking their bid (mostly, probably, because Ulric Kerensky became ilKhan and he had no real intention of conquering the Inner Sphere), but if they had, the IS had enough space and troops that if their leaders had been willing to pay the political cost as well as the one in blood and treasure (admittedly, by no means a certain thing), they could have bled the Clans until they died from anemia (if no warriors live long enough for their genes to distinguish themselves, where does the next generation of warriors come from?).
So really it came down to the Clans' cultural philosophy of minimizing waste and economy of force preventing them from bringing their full weight to bear in the initial attacks. And that they had never really cooperated in a campaign since Operation Klondike, since I failed to mention it earlier, and most of the Clans still bore grudges from slights perceived or real during that campaign (something that Ulric Kerensky was able to use to his advantage when they 'tried' to do so late in the war). Later in the war they had leadership that recognized both the futility of using their 'total force', but also the inherent risk to their own culture if it was pursued.
Mostly it comes down to the fact that none of them had fought a real war, at least as the Inner Sphere defines a 'war', since the annihilation of the not-named at the earliest. Arguably the last 'real' war they fought (and certainly fought as a whole) was Operation Klondike. As a result they completely missed the strategic realities of what a war in the Inner Sphere would be like.
The Clans style of warfare had obviated the need for Strategic/Tactical intelligence since everyone knew what was being brought to a fight, and where it would be held. With the loss in intelligence gathering came a loss in intelligence analysis beyond was seen on the battlefield. The Inner Sphere's tactical advantages (a much more 'free' tactical doctrine, combined arms doctrine, artillery in common use [Clan Wolf had the Naga which is an awesome platform but rarely made use of it and no one else did], alternative ammunition loads for autocannons and missile racks, deeper magazines than most Clan designs, etc) were insufficient to overcome those of the Clans (superior mechs and aerospace fighters, Omni-technology, powered armor). That is what the Clans saw, and most thinking on intelligence matters stopped at that point.
The Clans were, largely, incapable however of perceiving the strategic advantages the Inner Sphere possessed (sheer size, higher absolute size of military, shorter logistical chain) and how they balanced against the disadvantages the Clan's possessed (smaller size, extended supply lines, etc).
The Clans' way of warfare also bite them, repeatedly, in the ass. Clan Wolf, as the Clan of Kerensky, was 'gifted' with the right to participate without Trial. All the other Clans had to bid away forces and fight for that right. The Smoke Jaguars had an opening bid of something like a dozen galaxies IIRC, but its invasion force was a third that. The others were similar.
Battles amongst the Clans tended towards sharp, short affairs as seen in most of their mech designs having only very limited ammunition. This shows in their initial planning that had each invasion 'wave' end in a period to resupply and refit. Only later did Ulric Kerensky change the deposition of Clan Wolf to include forward-staging supplies so that as each wave ended the next would commence.
Why?
Because the greatest strategic asset the Inner Sphere had was its size. The Clans had a higher percentage of their population in uniform, but the IS's size meant that its military as a whole was larger. If the Clans could be delayed long enough it would have a chance to develop new technologies (already well on its way), refit their war-gear (the FWL had basically become the arms-manufacturer of the IS), and develop new anti-Clan tactics (Planting required the Wolf saKhan to break his bid and pull in a full extra cluster, Wolcott, Rasalhague with Gn. Mansdottir's response of using anything including 'vilest trickery'), and move additional forces to the front (Luthien comes prominently to mind).
It never came down to the Clans as a whole breaking their bid (mostly, probably, because Ulric Kerensky became ilKhan and he had no real intention of conquering the Inner Sphere), but if they had, the IS had enough space and troops that if their leaders had been willing to pay the political cost as well as the one in blood and treasure (admittedly, by no means a certain thing), they could have bled the Clans until they died from anemia (if no warriors live long enough for their genes to distinguish themselves, where does the next generation of warriors come from?).
So really it came down to the Clans' cultural philosophy of minimizing waste and economy of force preventing them from bringing their full weight to bear in the initial attacks. And that they had never really cooperated in a campaign since Operation Klondike, since I failed to mention it earlier, and most of the Clans still bore grudges from slights perceived or real during that campaign (something that Ulric Kerensky was able to use to his advantage when they 'tried' to do so late in the war). Later in the war they had leadership that recognized both the futility of using their 'total force', but also the inherent risk to their own culture if it was pursued.
#24
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Posted 31 March 2014 - 10:23 AM
Ashnod had a good point, sorry I missed it before I posted.
By no means did I mean to imply that only a handful from Clan Wolf recognized the tree chipper the Clans were getting ready to stick their hand into.
Goliath Scorpion is another that knew, or at least a good idea, what was coming, both from their studies of historical archives, and from their own 'observers' who had travelled with Wolf's Dragoons. Remember that they had been responsible for the Dragoons' initial training as well.
As I recall they cast their vote on Operation Revival with a coin toss to show their contempt.
So yes, there were others who had a better understanding of the tactical and strategic realities of war in the Inner Sphere.
Most of them just weren't in a position to do anything about it.
And... Since not everyone was going, the Clans that were needed to leave someone behind to protect their holdings in Clan Space from their 'honorable' neighbors.
By no means did I mean to imply that only a handful from Clan Wolf recognized the tree chipper the Clans were getting ready to stick their hand into.
Goliath Scorpion is another that knew, or at least a good idea, what was coming, both from their studies of historical archives, and from their own 'observers' who had travelled with Wolf's Dragoons. Remember that they had been responsible for the Dragoons' initial training as well.
As I recall they cast their vote on Operation Revival with a coin toss to show their contempt.
So yes, there were others who had a better understanding of the tactical and strategic realities of war in the Inner Sphere.
Most of them just weren't in a position to do anything about it.
And... Since not everyone was going, the Clans that were needed to leave someone behind to protect their holdings in Clan Space from their 'honorable' neighbors.
#25
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Posted 31 March 2014 - 04:00 PM
Kael 17, on 31 March 2014 - 10:13 AM, said:
Why didn't the Clans use more of their Forces?
Mostly it comes down to the fact that none of them had fought a real war, at least as the Inner Sphere defines a 'war', since the annihilation of the not-named at the earliest. Arguably the last 'real' war they fought (and certainly fought as a whole) was Operation Klondike. As a result they completely missed the strategic realities of what a war in the Inner Sphere would be like.
The Clans style of warfare had obviated the need for Strategic/Tactical intelligence since everyone knew what was being brought to a fight, and where it would be held. With the loss in intelligence gathering came a loss in intelligence analysis beyond was seen on the battlefield. The Inner Sphere's tactical advantages (a much more 'free' tactical doctrine, combined arms doctrine, artillery in common use [Clan Wolf had the Naga which is an awesome platform but rarely made use of it and no one else did], alternative ammunition loads for autocannons and missile racks, deeper magazines than most Clan designs, etc) were insufficient to overcome those of the Clans (superior mechs and aerospace fighters, Omni-technology, powered armor). That is what the Clans saw, and most thinking on intelligence matters stopped at that point.
The Clans were, largely, incapable however of perceiving the strategic advantages the Inner Sphere possessed (sheer size, higher absolute size of military, shorter logistical chain) and how they balanced against the disadvantages the Clan's possessed (smaller size, extended supply lines, etc).
The Clans' way of warfare also bite them, repeatedly, in the ass. Clan Wolf, as the Clan of Kerensky, was 'gifted' with the right to participate without Trial. All the other Clans had to bid away forces and fight for that right. The Smoke Jaguars had an opening bid of something like a dozen galaxies IIRC, but its invasion force was a third that. The others were similar.
Battles amongst the Clans tended towards sharp, short affairs as seen in most of their mech designs having only very limited ammunition. This shows in their initial planning that had each invasion 'wave' end in a period to resupply and refit. Only later did Ulric Kerensky change the deposition of Clan Wolf to include forward-staging supplies so that as each wave ended the next would commence.
Why?
Because the greatest strategic asset the Inner Sphere had was its size. The Clans had a higher percentage of their population in uniform, but the IS's size meant that its military as a whole was larger. If the Clans could be delayed long enough it would have a chance to develop new technologies (already well on its way), refit their war-gear (the FWL had basically become the arms-manufacturer of the IS), and develop new anti-Clan tactics (Planting required the Wolf saKhan to break his bid and pull in a full extra cluster, Wolcott, Rasalhague with Gn. Mansdottir's response of using anything including 'vilest trickery'), and move additional forces to the front (Luthien comes prominently to mind).
It never came down to the Clans as a whole breaking their bid (mostly, probably, because Ulric Kerensky became ilKhan and he had no real intention of conquering the Inner Sphere), but if they had, the IS had enough space and troops that if their leaders had been willing to pay the political cost as well as the one in blood and treasure (admittedly, by no means a certain thing), they could have bled the Clans until they died from anemia (if no warriors live long enough for their genes to distinguish themselves, where does the next generation of warriors come from?).
So really it came down to the Clans' cultural philosophy of minimizing waste and economy of force preventing them from bringing their full weight to bear in the initial attacks. And that they had never really cooperated in a campaign since Operation Klondike, since I failed to mention it earlier, and most of the Clans still bore grudges from slights perceived or real during that campaign (something that Ulric Kerensky was able to use to his advantage when they 'tried' to do so late in the war). Later in the war they had leadership that recognized both the futility of using their 'total force', but also the inherent risk to their own culture if it was pursued.
Mostly it comes down to the fact that none of them had fought a real war, at least as the Inner Sphere defines a 'war', since the annihilation of the not-named at the earliest. Arguably the last 'real' war they fought (and certainly fought as a whole) was Operation Klondike. As a result they completely missed the strategic realities of what a war in the Inner Sphere would be like.
The Clans style of warfare had obviated the need for Strategic/Tactical intelligence since everyone knew what was being brought to a fight, and where it would be held. With the loss in intelligence gathering came a loss in intelligence analysis beyond was seen on the battlefield. The Inner Sphere's tactical advantages (a much more 'free' tactical doctrine, combined arms doctrine, artillery in common use [Clan Wolf had the Naga which is an awesome platform but rarely made use of it and no one else did], alternative ammunition loads for autocannons and missile racks, deeper magazines than most Clan designs, etc) were insufficient to overcome those of the Clans (superior mechs and aerospace fighters, Omni-technology, powered armor). That is what the Clans saw, and most thinking on intelligence matters stopped at that point.
The Clans were, largely, incapable however of perceiving the strategic advantages the Inner Sphere possessed (sheer size, higher absolute size of military, shorter logistical chain) and how they balanced against the disadvantages the Clan's possessed (smaller size, extended supply lines, etc).
The Clans' way of warfare also bite them, repeatedly, in the ass. Clan Wolf, as the Clan of Kerensky, was 'gifted' with the right to participate without Trial. All the other Clans had to bid away forces and fight for that right. The Smoke Jaguars had an opening bid of something like a dozen galaxies IIRC, but its invasion force was a third that. The others were similar.
Battles amongst the Clans tended towards sharp, short affairs as seen in most of their mech designs having only very limited ammunition. This shows in their initial planning that had each invasion 'wave' end in a period to resupply and refit. Only later did Ulric Kerensky change the deposition of Clan Wolf to include forward-staging supplies so that as each wave ended the next would commence.
Why?
Because the greatest strategic asset the Inner Sphere had was its size. The Clans had a higher percentage of their population in uniform, but the IS's size meant that its military as a whole was larger. If the Clans could be delayed long enough it would have a chance to develop new technologies (already well on its way), refit their war-gear (the FWL had basically become the arms-manufacturer of the IS), and develop new anti-Clan tactics (Planting required the Wolf saKhan to break his bid and pull in a full extra cluster, Wolcott, Rasalhague with Gn. Mansdottir's response of using anything including 'vilest trickery'), and move additional forces to the front (Luthien comes prominently to mind).
It never came down to the Clans as a whole breaking their bid (mostly, probably, because Ulric Kerensky became ilKhan and he had no real intention of conquering the Inner Sphere), but if they had, the IS had enough space and troops that if their leaders had been willing to pay the political cost as well as the one in blood and treasure (admittedly, by no means a certain thing), they could have bled the Clans until they died from anemia (if no warriors live long enough for their genes to distinguish themselves, where does the next generation of warriors come from?).
So really it came down to the Clans' cultural philosophy of minimizing waste and economy of force preventing them from bringing their full weight to bear in the initial attacks. And that they had never really cooperated in a campaign since Operation Klondike, since I failed to mention it earlier, and most of the Clans still bore grudges from slights perceived or real during that campaign (something that Ulric Kerensky was able to use to his advantage when they 'tried' to do so late in the war). Later in the war they had leadership that recognized both the futility of using their 'total force', but also the inherent risk to their own culture if it was pursued.
I don't see this being reflected in the canon.
As I showed before, the Clans didn't use more force because they didn't think it would require more force. Far from not being able to conduct a 'real' war, they desired it. Leo Showers is quoted as thirsting for it. They just didn't think the IS could offer it, and not without reason it would seem.
Because they were winning, and winning pretty handily. Not the as convincingly as they had first thought, and some things needed to change. But they were adapting quickly and still doing fatal damage to the IS.
The Clans style of Warfare was ALL about combined arms. They were proficient at it to a much higher degree than the IS (indeed, they were more proficiaint at warfare in general than IS forces). For example, ALL Clans deployed artillery, mostly at Galaxy Level. Infantry was integrated down to the lowest tactical level and so on and so on. Their headhunter attacks (special forces) decapitated many IS commands, they even had a specific Elemental Loadout for these operations.
The IS size was also it's enemy. It takes a long time for forces to come from the other side of the galaxy and the leader making that decision knows it will also be a long time before they come back. It's a big political decision to strip worlds of defenses to feed them into the Clan front. The Clans could only be 'delayed' if there were troops to delay then and up until Tukayyid, there were no troops. We already see Clan Wolf and Ghost Bear steam rolling forward because there is no one in front of them. The gates are wide open. If you are arguing that the IS could have bought time, where are the troops to do so. At the end of wave 5, tell me the regiments you think could have stopped the Clans continuing forward?
As for political desire, that's only half true. Theodore is on record in canon as saying he prefers the save the DCMS than planets, he is even thinking of giving up Luthien. He has exactly zero political desire to save Terra, he plans on falling back towards Galedon, the Kurita heartland, and keeping the DCMS structure intact. Takashi still has influence, but he already submitted to his son's startegic acumen in 3039 and Theodore was right. It will be tense but the canon suggests that Kurita will not be defending Terra.
FRR is gone, no matter how much desire they might have they have nothing of substance to fight with.
FC has a political desire to keep the realm intact and so by default, will defend Terra. But can they? As I showed above, they just don't have the manpower to do it alone.
CC is not coming to assist, they bought front row seats and are munching their popcorn watching the show. They are clapping every time the FC looses another system.
FWL is not going to get involved. Thomas is a Comstart stooge and Comstar think they already have this in the bag. They think the Clans are an ally and going to help them in breaking the House Lords. It's only when they find out how wrong they are that the release the Com Guard and negotiate Tukayyid.
You need to remember the Clans objective with operation Revival is not to seize the IS, its just the first step on that goal. It objective is to seize Terra. Once the Il Clan is decided, the rest of the Clans can come forward and the war expands. Every single Clans shares Nicholas's promise that they would return to the IS and save it from the 'evil' House Lords.
Operation Revival is like Operation Overlord in 1944. Land the forces on the beach head, chew up the defenders, seize ports, then bring in more troops to take out Germany. It's only the first step for the Clans, and that first step was going pretty well.
If it were not for Comguard, Terra is going to fall. Not on the Clans original timetable sure, but fall none the less.
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