45 replies to this topic

[BigTaeng]

Davers, on 30 March 2014 - 10:33 AM, said:

I find it odd that they don't have any Clan forum tags, not even a generic catch all 'Clan' tag.

Hopefully soon. They have had the mwoclans.com domain for a long time.

[J0anna]

Noesis, on 03 April 2014 - 02:48 PM, said:

Thats the Star League icon. A better symbol for the Clans is the Clan Dagger Star:




However for factional interests like the IS Houses each Clan would ideally be recognized as their own faction for any potential loyalty interests in CW.

The "Dagger Star" is the symbol of a MechWarrior (and that's just what Phelan calls it, not it's name), but as THE true descendant's of the Star League I think we should unite under the banner of our forefathers......

Edited by Moenrg, 04 April 2014 - 05:44 AM.

[Gremlich Johns]

Noesis, on 03 April 2014 - 02:48 PM, said:

Thats the Star League icon. A better symbol for the Clans is the Clan Dagger Star:




However for factional interests like the IS Houses each Clan would ideally be recognised as their own faction for any potential loyality interests in CW.

Hey, I had one of those as my rank once! This one ;-)



But, those of us Clansmen (pretty much all of the active ones) in the NBT-HC planetary league had both our Clan Symbol (on the torso) and the Cameron Star (on the legs) to represent the Star League legacy we were striving to restore. THIS was our banner.

Edited by Gremlich Johns, 04 April 2014 - 03:22 PM.

[Lukoi Banacek]

GJ and Moerng have the right of it my opinion. The Cameron Star is the symbol of the Clans overall. Who better to restore the Star League than her descendents?

[GalaxyBluestar]

i don't buy much cockpit clutter but this'll do for now. yeah i brought the uller early but no more mechs until some definate results/info appears.

[Asheron Storm]

why would non-invading clans be limited to teaming with friendly clans? In "reality" most of the reserve clans were assigned to fight along side their most hated rivals.

At any rate, while Cloud Cobra is my favorite clan and I hope I'll be able to change my name so I can fight as a Steiner or Khatib, I'm pretty much resigned to the idea that I'll have to fight as a Ghostbear or join my friend, whose favorite clan is Wolf.

Hmm.. also, wouldn't it be cool if the Clan pre-order peoples got to use their clan mechs under a wolf's dragoons banner for a little while?

[Craig Steele]

Asheron Storm, on 07 April 2014 - 07:10 AM, said:

why would non-invading clans be limited to teaming with friendly clans? In "reality" most of the reserve clans were assigned to fight along side their most hated rivals.

At any rate, while Cloud Cobra is my favorite clan and I hope I'll be able to change my name so I can fight as a Steiner or Khatib, I'm pretty much resigned to the idea that I'll have to fight as a Ghostbear or join my friend, whose favorite clan is Wolf.

Hmm.. also, wouldn't it be cool if the Clan pre-order peoples got to use their clan mechs under a wolf's dragoons banner for a little while?

In 3050, only the "Invading" Clans have the right to land on IS worlds.

If another Clans wanted to drop, they would need the consent of one of those Invading Clans (implying some sort of freindly relationship exists).

Thats in a canon sense only, in MW:O it doesn't look like it matters too much at all.

[Noesis]

Lukoi, on 04 April 2014 - 03:38 PM, said:

GJ and Moerng have the right of it my opinion. The Cameron Star is the symbol of the Clans overall. Who better to restore the Star League than her descendents?

The Clans may have decended from the SLDF but other factions of the SLDF also remained in the inner sphere migrating to the Marik worlds after the SLDF was officially disbanded.

Later around 3058 time the SLDF is retored as part of IS forces to effectively combat the Clans. The Nova Cats then becoming a warden Clan and a member of the SLDF to effectively irradicate the Smoke Jaguars.

http://www.sarna.net...e_Defense_Force

So in principal could see a conflict of interest with official recognition as being a part of the SLDF when this occurs and using their logo.

Overall the SLDF as part of history has always represented an IS defence initiative. And is only applicable to Warden interests effectively contradicting Crusader interests with Operation Revival.

As such I struggle to recognise the SLDF image as a valid one to use for the Clans because of this dissonance in how it is representing defending the IS even if historically the Children of Kerensky had these origins as it was this force that Kerensky took to formulate the Clans. However in doing so I still see the Clans as a completely "different animal" (if you pardon the pun) to the SLDF as an organisation as a result.

This is also then seemingly reflected by PGI in MWO in the way they recognise the Clan Dagger star as a more effective symbol for the Clans:

[Craig Steele]

Noesis, on 08 April 2014 - 09:30 PM, said:

The Clans may have decended from the SLDF but other factions of the SLDF also remained in the inner sphere migrating to the Marik worlds after the SLDF was officially disbanded.

Later around 3058 time the SLDF is retored as part of IS forces to effectively combat the Clans. The Nova Cats then becoming a warden Clan and a member of the SLDF to effectively irradicate the Smoke Jaguars.

http://www.sarna.net...e_Defense_Force

So in principal could see a conflict of interest with official recognition as being a part of the SLDF when this occurs and using their logo.

Overall the SLDF as part of history has always represented an IS defence initiative. And is only applicable to Warden interests effectively contradicting Crusader interests with Operation Revival.

As such I struggle to recognise the SLDF image as a valid one to use for the Clans because of this dissonance in how it is representing defending the IS even if historically the Children of Kerensky had these origins as it was this force that Kerensky took to formulate the Clans. However in doing so I still see the Clans as a completely "different animal" (if you pardon the pun) to the SLDF as an organisation as a result.

This is also then seemingly reflected by PGI in MWO in the way they recognise the Clan Dagger star as a more effective symbol for the Clans:

Kinda,

The Clans are descendants of the SLDF but they also freely admit the are seperate too. Better in most ways (they maintain).

They disavowed many of the SLDF aspects because those did not help combating the nationalistic feelings of the 5 house affiliations in the Pentagon Worlds which culminated in the 2nd Exodus.

Nicholas was very much about "creating" a new culture, based on martial excellence.

They did however retain Alexanders overall mission "to return humanity" to a time of peace of prosperity, which the original Star League governed over.

Every Clan believed this was their obligation, their purpose, and their culture was to be the best warriors they possibly could be until the time of return.

Some Warden Clans openly project the requirement to exterminate the House Lords and replace all levels of planetary government with their Trueborn warriors so humanity could be "educated" in the proper ways of Clan culture.

There was never any doubt that both Warden and Crusader envisaged combat with the House Lords to "save" humanity, the Warden vs Crusader argument was largely when that combat would be required, not if.

As for the Star League itself, well when Alexander left those units that chose to remain behind fell into one or another of the House armies (some as mercs, some just absorbed) and the worlds of the Terran Hemagony were gobbled up by the Succesor States during the course of the 1st Succession War, bar Terra which Comstar had claimed and declared untouchable at the threat of communication interdiction.

So the SLDF affiliation is spread across all the States to some degree.

Eg, 4th Tau Ceti Rangers and 15th Dracon were SLDF units that stayed in Liao colours for many years as "Mercs", Erandi Light Horse was Kurita than Davion (they went to Steainer for a bit from memory). There are others ofc.

[Noesis]

Yes I can understand the need to recognise the origins of the Clans in this way with the use of the SLDF and the connections orginally associated with them prior to them leaving the Inner Sphere.

I also recognise that a spread of forces occured with the dissolvement of the SLDF. I mentioned the Marik contingent as I believe this is where the majority of the Military arm that remained in the IS of the SLDF migrated to when this occured.

I don't really have a strong opinion about the use of the symbol as it is still part of those overall interests in terms of the Clans decisions and purpose to invade the IS. And that it is a part of Clan heritage or their "history".

However from an organisational representation the Cameron Star should be associated officially then with the Star League. Which of course is re-established as a new organisation in the future that does not represent the overall Clan community.

[Lukoi Banacek]

First, the Clans feel they are the primary descendents of the SLDF. If you read the novels about the 3058 version of the Star League, the IS appropriation of the symbol was highly offensive to most of thee Clans and they were considered frauds for posing as a reborn SLDF.

Second, it is 3050. At this point in history, the Clans by and large did not know about the remaining Eridani etc, and would have felt justifiedin coopting the symbol imo.

Third, PGIs reflection of canon is not ever going to be a selling point in a debate lol. It may be what we all have to tolerate in order to enjoy some part of the franchise experience, but they do a poor job of reflecting much of the spirit of canon let alone the actual details so their selection of the dagger star doesnt sway me in the slightest that it should be the overarching Clan symbol.

I will gladly tolerate IS having clan mechs on day one of the invasion because PGI did a poor job of organizing their game (for example) but that in no way reflects canon lore. But a mangled lore is bettee than no game at all. Plus they are gettjing better imo.

[CyclonerM]

The Cameron Star is regarded as sacred, as everything related to the Star League. The Clan daggerstar is actually a variation of the Cameron Star. The Clans believe that they should one day restore the Star League.

In short, the Cameron Star is not the symbol of the Clans but it is a highly considered symbol.

[Lukoi Banacek]

CyclonerM, on 09 April 2014 - 07:43 AM, said:

The Cameron Star is regarded as sacred, as everything related to the Star League. The Clan daggerstar is actually a variation of the Cameron Star. The Clans believe that they should one day restore the Star League.

In short, the Cameron Star is not the symbol of the Clans but it is a highly considered symbol.

There is no official overarching symbol of the Clans.

[CyclonerM]

Lukoi, on 09 April 2014 - 07:50 AM, said:

There is no official overarching symbol of the Clans.

Are you sure? They are often represented by the red daggerstar. It is not only the symbol of the MechWarriors as i recall: daggerstars with different colors are also used to represent Elementals, ASFs and probably vehicles during the bidding process.

[Lukoi Banacek]

The daggerstar is common but not uniform across all of the Clans. Consider as just one example the CBS star which has all equal length points.

The Cameron is revered by all Clans. Again, it is all mere opinion for one simple reason...there was no definitive standard in the sourcebooks or the novels. So we will have to agree to disagree on this one I think.

Not that it matter atm regardless...There is no "banner" to unify us all nor should there be. The Clans are competing to take Terra.....not alot of cooperating lol.

[Gremlich Johns]

Kerensky took about 80% of what remained of the SLDF with him on Exodus (113 divisions), the remaining 20% spread across the known worlds could not constitute an effective fighting force and besides, the "Lords" of the extant Republics at that time kept/took a portion of that 20% for themselves, effectively eliminating any real unit Esprit de Corps among the components. They could, however, in 3058, justifiably claim Honorifics from any those SLDF units which remained after the liberation of Terra and Amaris' death before Exodus.

@Lukoi, the CBS lengths of the CBS star are not uniform

[Will9761]

The only clan banners untouched are Clan Fire Mandrill and Clan Ice Hellion.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Gremlich Johns, on 09 April 2014 - 02:22 PM, said:

Kerensky took about 80% of what remained of the SLDF with him on Exodus (113 divisions), the remaining 20% spread across the known worlds could not constitute an effective fighting force and besides, the "Lords" of the extant Republics at that time kept/took a portion of that 20% for themselves, effectively eliminating any real unit Esprit de Corps among the components. They could, however, in 3058, justifiably claim Honorifics from any those SLDF units which remained after the liberation of Terra and Amaris' death before Exodus.

@Lukoi, the CBS lengths of the CBS star are not uniform

You are right GJ, my mistake. When I looked at an earlier and smaller picture of that symbol it must have been compressed because it was uniform in that version. Regardless it is not a traditional Daggerstar either.

[Lucian Nostra]

Dunno something we've talked about in length. Makes me sad as a Cat knowing PGI probably isn't going to add us into the game for... years and years.. if they ever do.

I'm not heartbroken about running as a Jaguar if we must, but than again I don't have the animosity towards Jags a lot of Cats do...

Edited by Lucian Nostra, 09 April 2014 - 03:59 PM.

[Craig Steele]

Lucian Nostra, on 09 April 2014 - 03:59 PM, said:

Dunno something we've talked about in length. Makes me sad as a Cat knowing PGI probably isn't going to add us into the game for... years and years.. if they ever do.

I'm not heartbroken about running as a Jaguar if we must, but than again I don't have the animosity towards Jags a lot of Cats do...

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, you can legitimatly drop with any of the big 4 if you have some pseudo Sci Fi BS as in canon, all 34 Khans were in the Invasion zone (we presume with appropriate escorts.)

Heck you could even just argue the Khan negotiated a one off resource deal for the option to support a planetary assault with a "star" or whatever if you really wanted.