42 replies to this topic

[luxebo]

During the public test, not only did I test some regular, more standard builds that I would run (well some of them on this account, some on another), I also tried some other mech builds on another account, namely some 'meta' builds some of my friends just wanted to show me. I don't understand why people complain about them so much, they really aren't that powerful, but they're very situational.

The 5 that I tried with my friends are the CTF-IM (triple AC5 w/ triple med laser), HGN-733C (dual PPC dual Ultra AC5), BNC-3E (dual PPC triple AC5), JM6-S (dual AC20), and STK-M (dual PPC w/ AC20). All these are really situational, and these can all be defeated with different ways. A ton of people complain heavily on these kind of builds, but they really aren't as powerful/OP as people say they are. The Ilya runs out of ammo quickly and usually has XL. The Highlander is really easy to disarm (which was what happened constantly when testing it). The Banshee was either slow or fragile, and STD engines at max go to about 40 kph, while XL engines are easy to shoot off. The Jagermech is really easy to destroy because the shoulders are easy to shoot off. And the Misery is slow and weak for how much tonnage it weighs, so it can be taken out.

The problem with people complaining is that people don't know how to kill these quickly. As a general rule to most of these kind of builds, don't brawl with 'meta' mechs dependent on ammo in general, as they are much better at nailing you close range (Jagermech and IIya examples). Instead, kite them and snipe them from afar. Do the opposite for the ones with PPCs, as they have a 90m minimum range, which could be taken advantage of (Highlander, Misery, and Banshee examples). Aim as a general rule for the legs first (scratch em and check them for ammo and weak armor), and then the right torso. Don't shoot the shield side, as it's wasted effort and ammo/heat. Finish them in the right torso if they have an XL or destroy their center if they don't have an XL.

After testing, I realized that 'meta' mechs are generally very situational and can be taken out quickly when known. I created this topic because I saw that many people, often in nearly every match, complain about how the 'meta' is OP and wanted to address this so some might see it and see their errors in trying to counter the 'meta' or how they're dealing with the game itself.

Edit: Builds used:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...7d6fe8a655524b3 (Boomjager)
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c82c70b30121649 (Triple AC5 Ilya)
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...31bcecd3ade46a9 (Misery)
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...60d60241784336c (Poptart Highlander)
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...739dfbdfa4cf581 (Slow Banshee)

BTW I was asked by friends to try poptart Shadow Hawks and CTF-3D and Victors with a similar layout to the above mechs, but I didn't really have enough cash in the account used nor did I want to create another account for a public test to test mechs that are already there pretty much. So those were taken out of my test and I didn't use them.

Edited by luxebo, 02 April 2014 - 10:38 AM.

[Alzarns Fire]

Luxebo this is a great, long overdue post. I run meta builds, and I run balanced builds, and I 'try' my own weird variations. As you say Meta are far from OP - rather they are very very effective in certain situations, more so when they are piloted by those who know how to use them in said situations. Every single mech, and every single build has weaknesses. Its the same as the complaints about LRM 'noobs' First to run a LRM boat to max effectiveness you must be a good pilot, not a noob. Second LRM boats are generally very poorly equipped to handle < 180 meter engagement - so use that knowledge to combat them. Same goes for the Meta's - up against me in my BNC-3E in your short range build trying to pop me from 500 meters is gonna get you killed very fast. The Banshee is big and slow, and if its only got standard PPCs loses 20 points of damage inside 90 meters. Again info to use. Conversely the Dual AC20 Boom Jaeger is a close range build - try and engage it at range. All it requires is for the complainers to do some tactical thinking.... if that's not asking too much.

[Mazzyplz]

to be fair, not every build is the same.
that's why - when you're on the battlefield... you always need to prioritize the jagers and victors.
haven't you noticed that trend?
it's because autocannon is a bit out of control right now - the nerf will come soon.
the numbers have been pulled and the ROF on AC is a bit high for the heat.

don't tell me you haven't run into a build your team had to neutralize quick? hint: it's usually not the mechs carrying lasers

[Alaskan Nobody]

luxebo, on 01 April 2014 - 07:31 PM, said:

Wall-o-Text^tm

Paragraphs please?

One argument (play devil's advocate for ya just like I did for Victor) A lot of those builds are powerful - the AC/40 Jager can ruin your day really fast if you are not careful - but for that power there is a tradeoff - for the AC/40 it is no range.

The other builds have their strengths to - or they wouldn't be the "Meta" - but they also have their weaknesses.
Or to put it in a manor similar to how you did - they are powerful - but they are not that powerful.

[luxebo]

I'll try to split the big paragraph, it's a bit much to read.

Dual AC20 Jager is indeed quite powerful, but the problem is that people tend to BRAWL with the Jager in things that would obviously be beaten. The lucky few winners in a brawl against a dual AC20 Jager usually end badly afterwards. It's much better to kite it slowly and run away from it while slowly killing it rather than running into it and fighting a point blank brawl with it. It rarely works. I've seen people run at it with stuff that just shouldn't go directly against it.

They did say that they'll be looking into ACs, but then again it's stated this: "We are proud to announce that Paul was quoted as saying 'now everything is perfect and we never have to change anything ever again.'" So I guess we're stuck with balance as is?

Yeah, agreed with all 3 posts above, thanks for commenting guys.

[Parliment]

Meta is a myth. It is Fedrat lies do not listen to the misinformation.
Also if your having problems the CTF-3D with 2 ppc /ac 10 will fix those problems ~

Edited by supernachos, 01 April 2014 - 10:06 PM.

[Modo44]

It is easy to destroy meta builds when people with not enough skill play them. Meet someone who knows positioning, has good aim, and shields every time as a reflex, and it will be a whole other experience. The ggclose kind.

[Koniving]

This is why my Misery runs an AC/5 to go with the PPCs, plus small and small pulse lasers and an SRM rack.
Once the twin PPC + AC/20 Misery fires, there's a 4 second window of complete helplessness and a poor ability to turn. Also it's weakest from the side.

The Highlander is relying too heavily on the right side; it's why more intelligent builds utilize both sides.

Banshee; that is stupidly slow. My 4 ballistic, 4 energy Banshee goes faster than that (in excess of 53) with a standard engine and makes enemy mechs become rattling nightmare coffins. That's with no unlocks.

Jagermechs doing twin AC/20s are somewhat foolish; admittedly the standard engine ones are the ones I consider to be dangerous.

And that Illya Muromets seems alright, but honestly triple AC/2 + twin PPC or the IKBoSy (twin flamers, UAC/5, twin LB-10x) would be a bit more to worry about. Though not sure on the lack of ammo, I usually carry 8 to 10 tons of ammo. For triple AC/5 that's 240 rounds; 80 trigger pulls minimum at 8 tons (and 1,200 damage potential).

Honestly the biggest trouble with "meta" rigs in general is everyone knows their secrets.

Edited by Koniving, 01 April 2014 - 10:14 PM.

[Mazzyplz]

luxebo, on 01 April 2014 - 09:51 PM, said:

They did say that they'll be looking into ACs, but then again it's stated this: "We are proud to announce that Paul was quoted as saying 'now everything is perfect and we never have to change anything ever again.'" So I guess we're stuck with balance as is?

yeah, that was said in the april fool's patch.
it was an april's fool joke, obviously not everything is perfect

[ShinVector]

Get what you mean for META builds but it is really only as good as the pilots.

The possible exception might be LRMs... Any noob in the previous Stalker Champion.. Could simple get a lock from distance and cause anyone pain..
Now that mech is gone from the rotation.. There should be less of that nonsense..

Mowing people down in the public test seems to take much less effort compared to live server..


Edit: typos

Edited by ShinVector, 02 April 2014 - 12:31 AM.

[Koniving]

ShinVector, on 01 April 2014 - 10:30 PM, said:

Thermal vision

Your thermal works well. Mine is so borked that I'm seeing black mechs in Frozen City at long range and can't see them at all up close. I also get black mechs against black backgrounds on most environments.

I'm on DX 11.

[ShinVector]

Koniving, on 02 April 2014 - 12:27 AM, said:

Your thermal works well. Mine is so borked that I'm seeing black mechs in Frozen City at long range and can't see them at all up close. I also get black mechs against black backgrounds on most environments.

I'm on DX 11.

DX11 has issues... Image shuttering when when turning, lower fps... I hardly see any benefit.
I went back to DX9.... Absolutely no shutter when turning with the latest patch on DX9.

[The Great Unwashed]

The "problem" with meta mechs is that they typically operate in groups and know perfectly well how to either use cover, keep or close the range to be effective. Metamechs are effective because the players know the tricks that the OP outlined are difficult to achieve against them. Getting in that position against a good team is something different entirely.

So, metamech + good player is 1+1=3...

(I run triple AC5 mechs and I love 'm)

Edited by The Great Unwashed, 02 April 2014 - 01:01 AM.

[Magna Canus]

I will re-post some text I wrote today for another post on this topic;

It definitely is a lot easier to deal with pop-tarts when you know where to hit them.

Take the HGN-733C for example, you should always be aiming for the right shoulder since when that is gone their 2xPPC + 2xACs are gone. Few if any carry back-up missile weapons on the left side to counter this.

Same thing with the CTF-3D, hit the right side to take out the weapons if not kill the mech outright as a 3D needs an XL to run an AC/PPC pop-tart build.

The third most prevalent pop-tart is the Dragon Slayer which has the same issue as the HGN-733C and the CTF-3D; the weapons are all on the right side plus to run the pop-tart build they need an XL engine.

Morale of the story? Always hit the right side.

Most pop-tarts are going to be absorbed with their play style, e.g. eventually they will rear their ugly heads over cover to peek and/or do their pop-tart thing. One of the best weapons against this play style is patience and focused fire. More often than not you have an idea as to where the pop-tart is going to crest his cover. As soon as you see the head rising over cover take aim for the right shoulder. If you have good aim and timing hit them right before they reach the apex of their jump which will throw their aim off and hopefully prevent a counter shot. Another good tactic is to use LLs and paint a circle around their cockpit, effectively obscuring their vision making aiming difficult. Even better is having someone with an AC20 up close who can hit the mechs shoulder and whip them about, hopefully forcing their shot off mark.

[AlmightyAeng]

The Great Unwashed, on 02 April 2014 - 01:00 AM, said:

The "problem" with good players is that they typically operate in groups and know perfectly well how to either use cover, keep or close the range to be effective. MECHS are effective because the players know the tricks that the OP outlined are difficult to achieve against them. Getting in that position against a good team is something different entirely.

So, mech + good player is 1+1=3...

(I run triple AC5 mechs and I love 'm)

Fixed that for you. I understand what you're saying, but a good player who UNDERSTANDS his build is aware of its weaknesses, and plays according, REGARDLESS of the build.

There's a reason why new players who jump into a 'meta' mech often have problems. They don't get that it's powerful because of HOW it's used.

I can't tell you how many times I've seen a Boomjager charge people head on over open ground and expect to simply steamroll everything. Yeah, no. I will shoot your side torso, cover, come back out, watch you alpha and overheat, hit your side torso again and giggle as you crumple. A 'meta' playstyle, a 'balanced' playstyle or even a 'joke' build ALL have situations where they are strong, and situations where they are weak. A good pilot knows this. A GREAT pilot uses it to his advantage. This game is made or broken based on POSITIONING and TIMING.

It's not about the build...it's about how SMART you play. I was having terrible games last night in my 'balanced' Protector and my 2LL, 3xAC5 Muromets. Horrible games (with one okay game - 5 kills, 600 dmg - for me that we still lost). All I wanted to do was jump into something, watch stuff expode, and go home happy. Minimum effort. I was playing lazy, and dumb, and the numbers showed it. So, I jumped into my D-DC. My sneaky, brawler, 2LL, 3xSRM4, AC20 D-DC.

First game, 750 dmg, 3 kills, 8 assist. Second game 967 damage, 4 kills, 5 assists. Third game, 690 damage, 2 kills, 10 assists.

Instead of just getting into a high-damage metamech and wanting to "DESTROY EVERYTHING" I took a deep breath and starting using chat, and my brain.

On Alpine I told Beta lance they were being idiots for heading straight to the enemy base in light mechs on Assault. After they were rebuffed I told them WHERE to regroup and pull the mechs. I told Charlie lance to stop playing patty-cake on the ridgeline and to get in I9 with the rest of us where they had a better position. I surveyed the field, waiting for the enemy to push against that light lance that was so beat up, under the mountain, and then yelled "PUSH THEIR REAR FORMATION" and ran my bigass Atlas off the cliff, down the mountain and into the enemy flank. Instead of leaving me to die, the team FOLLOWED and it worked BEAUTIFULLY and we won that game with only 3 deaths. Patience, intelligence, communication.

Frozen City. Our team heads for lower city and gets pushed back...they all start to cluster around 'epsilon.' I took my DDC and teammates into the tunnel. I peeked at Seismic and saw a relatively large group on the hill at the head of the dropship. I typed "We're going to steamroll their flank...when I say push, PUSH over that hill or you're losing your ECM and Assault firepower." Me and 3 stalkers snuck up behind them, I one-shotted their Raven 3L, 2-shotted the boomjagers left torso (Thank you Atlas gorilla arms, you soaked a 40-pt alpha), the stalkers took out the DDC and we proceeded to wreak havoc. Again, I came out of that match SEVERELY damaged...but in the latter half I played more defensively. I knew that after the initial push, it was more important for me to remain alive and giving out ECM and tanking damage than it was for me to go for the kill on more mechs. I still got 3...but I COULD have gotten more...but it would have jeopardized the win.

River City Night. Our team had Jack for LRM's. The team starts to set up around Alcatraz, ready to play the peekabo game. I tell our lights to give them something to shoot at in the water, and then tell the team "Your precious ECM cover is going to their base-area." They all followed. With so many buildings, the enemy LRM's were pretty useless, and between ECM and them "chasing the squirrel" we all crossed behind Alcatraz and over the open water without taking a single salvo of missiles. The enemy trickled toward us in 1's and 2's, separated by speed/weight, and we tore them apart. At the end I had no front armor, a cherry torso, my SRM's and a single arm left. But I was alive, still giving us ECM, and my team USED that.

This is not a 'look at me I'm awesome' post. This is a 'Working for it, using your brain, and communicating, EVEN IN PUGS, will get you victory more often than not' post.

It doesn't depend on meta-builds. It depends on KNOWING your build, and knowing what it does best.




And smart ECM helps.

Edited by Ghost Badger, 02 April 2014 - 06:33 AM.

[luxebo]

I'll sorta reply one by one on this one.

@Koniving Yeah some of the builds are not perfect at all. Misery build is not the best, as it's dependent on turning one direction, and it's slow in twist. Similar to the Highlander, it's very dependent on one direction, and it's easy to take out the shoulders. Banshee build is reliant on basically two choices, XL which makes it easy to kill, or STD which makes it under 50 kph on average, slow as said. Jagermechs with STD engines are easy to kite, run from it and snipe down both torsos. Generally they don't have enough speed to catch up, but with an XL engine they are easy to take out. And I see what I did wrong with the Ilya, I had only 5 tons of ammo, so I ran out pretty quickly. I was chain firing the AC5s too, so yeah more ammo needed. Thanks for the comments Koniving.

@Mazzyplz Understood now, forgot that it was April 1st that patch rolled out. Now I remember the Urbie with dual ac20s...

@The Great Unwashed + Shinvector + Magnakanus Since you guys are all talking about the same general idea I'll just reply to the idea itself. This is true, as many good players with meta mechs are basically really good at destroying anything they see, however most people encounter good players with meta mechs and don't know how to deal with them.
As said, always always always hit the right side of a mech (your left). This is best done because in almost every mech (Hunchback, Centurion, etc) the punch is on the right side of the mech. Some are symmetrical but still should be focused on in the right side as it may have XL or would be easier to core out this way. Thanks for commenting guys.
Edit: However there are some exceptions to the aim right rule. Shadow Hawks, Dragons, the Misery, DDCs, etc usually have a strong punch in their left side, so choose when to aim at the torso when seeing the loadout.

@Ghost Badger Good stories you posted. Using your brain is the best thing to do in general, and is always the best way to play instead of treating the game like CoD or Battlefield with one shot machines. Thanks for the comment.

Edit: I'm gonna post my builds here, best to do so.

Edited by luxebo, 02 April 2014 - 10:31 AM.

[Koniving]

ShinVector, on 02 April 2014 - 12:33 AM, said:

DX11 has issues... Image shuttering when when turning, lower fps... I hardly see any benefit.
I went back to DX9.... Absolutely no shutter when turning with the latest patch on DX9.

Anti-aliasing without motion blur. But that's the only benefit I see.

[luxebo]

Just wanted to bump this thread. Anyone else have any comments, stories, etc related to this topic? Was this small guide/thread in countering the meta helpful in any way to newer players?

[Kjudoon]

The cure to so many of those are LRMs and not giving them LOS or let them get too close. That's why we just suffered the QQpocalypse. Good post, OP.

Edited by Kjudoon, 02 April 2014 - 07:06 PM.

[Alaskan Nobody]

luxebo, on 02 April 2014 - 07:01 PM, said:

Was this small guide/thread in countering the meta helpful in any way to newer players?

I would hope so!

I had another thought on meta btw - what is the meta is sometimes not actually the strongest - but rather what is easiest to use.
Theorycrafted example (as I cannot remember any real examples surprise there, huh?)- even if they made the cooldown on the Gauss Rifle 0 seconds - there would still (probably) not be many using it because of the "awkwardness" of the charge mechanic - but it would be one of the "strongest" weapons in the game.


ACs and PPCs have been strong the entire time I have been playing (even back when SRM were the only "meta" due to the splash damage bug)- because both are really easy to use.
They were "meta" the whole time, even when they were not "meta" (if that makes sense)
Example: CTF-3D the basic "strong" builds for that have not changed - there are stronger builds out there, but the basic poptart build is suggested so frequently - mostly because it is simple, without being weak.




....I lost the core of how I was going to phrase that - but I think what I worked out of my stupor makes sense.