9 replies to this topic

[Ghillie Dhu]

two questions realy :-
1. what is the calibre of the mg's in the game?
2. is there any reason why in the future, i shouldn't be able to change the round I use from standard to armour piercing?
3. Oh and a third . . . how about wp heat rounds that act like little narc missiles?

[Karl Streiger]

the caliber of machine guns is always a loved topic....

currently in game - looks like very heavy machine guns - 12-15mm?
but machine guns in the lore range from simple 7.62mm guns to 20mm gattlings...

Why AP rounds... its an AI weapon.... it deals damage in TT because you fire it at point blank - with long burst at "one" specific part on the enemy Mech - most likely weak spots like joints, weapons or heatsinks.

How most playes in MWO use Machine Gun should deal exactly ZERO damage to armor. You really should need 1-3seconds burst of bullets at a specific location to deal damage - same could be said about lasers - a beam of 0.2seconds should deal damage at all...only when the laser is kept longer in place - the "ballistic" layer of outer side battlemech armor should start to melt.

I'm really sad about how PGI solved weapon ranges.... a machine gun - didn't stop to deal damage at 200m... its more as capable of hitting a Atlas at ranges of 2000m and beyond.... but it doesn't deal damage at all.

Edited by Karl Streiger, 08 April 2014 - 01:26 AM.

[Ghillie Dhu]

So armour isn't "steel" plate it's more of a heat resistant compund more a kin to the anti mag stuff around during ww2 ?

[Karl Streiger]

Ghillie Dhu, on 08 April 2014 - 01:29 AM, said:

So armour isn't "steel" plate it's more of a heat resistant compund more a kin to the anti mag stuff around during ww2 ?

Nobody knows wich material BT armor is from (it must be dense, flexible and incredible light - kind of black hole magic)
- in the lore its described as kind of composite armor with heat ablative layers - and hard anti kinetic layers.

Have made some "tests" to get a feeling for BT armor - thanks to the Aprils Fool TRO 1945 from last year.
Considering the size of an Atlas -> 19tons of aluminum would be hardly enough to cover the front size with a thickness of 20mm. Hardly enough to stop even a rifle bullet.

Maybe Carbon Nanotubes would be an option - but they weren't invented in the 80's at all. What i can say with a great portion of confidence - is that the material of structure that is described in most novels wouldn't work either.

Edited by Karl Streiger, 08 April 2014 - 01:36 AM.

[Ovion]

It's described as ablative armour, meaning it 'flakes off' as damage is taken.

Also remember that when BT was originally made, the explanation for everything was basically 'future did it'.

[AlexEss]

Ghillie Dhu, on 08 April 2014 - 01:17 AM, said:

two questions realy :-
1. what is the calibre of the mg's in the game?
2. is there any reason why in the future, i shouldn't be able to change the round I use from standard to armour piercing?
3. Oh and a third . . . how about wp heat rounds that act like little narc missiles?

1: Think 20 mm and you will at least have some peace of mind.
2: Because... That is sadly the answer to pretty much anything in BT. In this game i think it has to do with keeping things as simple as they could due to very restrictive amounts of time to create a game and prove it to be a viable concept before they lost the license(it was touched upon at some point either here or on NGNG). But i would guess all ammo in the MG´s are AP.. They woudl not do much good else-wise
3: Because the NARC is a sophisticated beacon that missiles can lock on to... WP rounds are just tracers and we have that i think.. or maybe i am imagining things. Or do you mention rounds with a small payload of WP that coat the mech upon impact... That would be interesting but we have flamers for that and sucha weapon would render the flamer pretty much useless (compared to the mostly harmless they are today)

[Bishop Steiner]

Just for the record about BTech Armor:

Standard BattleMech armor is composed of several layers providing various degrees of protection and support. The first layer is extremely strong steel, the result of crystal alignment and radiation treatment, which is also very brittle. The second layer is a ceramic, cubic boron nitride, which combined with a web of artificial diamond fibers acts as a backstop to the steel layer. These two layers rest atop a titanium alloy honeycomb structure which provides support, and a layer of self-sealing polymer sealant which allows for space and underwater operations
http://www.sarna.net...hs_%26_Vehicles

As far as MGs go, in lore they ranged anywhere from a .50 caliber projectile to a 20mm. Remember though, a 50 cal is not necessarily the 50 BMG we think of today, and could be a significantly different round with a higher density, higher velocity cartridge.

Also, Armor, MGs, Lasers, Autocannons... they are intentionally generic "catch alls". Just as there are dozens of tank cannons in use in MBTs today, most of them do approximately the same thing, same with the Soviet Heavy MG vs the American 50 caliber. So instead of making the customization system needlessly complex, you have "classes" of weapons, some of higher caliber, some with higher RoF, some single shot, some burst, etc. An ac20 could be a 140mm "burst" cannon, or a 203mm single shot.

The game was designed when there was no internet to get instant info on. 99% of military vehicle info was unknown to civilians back then. You needed certain reference works (most of which were notoriously inaccurate) or access to Janes Guides. By the time better information was available, the basic Battletech system had been about so long, it was far too late to make any substantive changes.


So what you see is what you get. But for MGs, the single closest to what a Mech would carry would be: http://en.wikipedia....wiki/M61_Vulcan So yeah, while they are primarily used for anti-infantry/anti-vehicle, they are quite capable of damaging mechs too.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 08 April 2014 - 04:02 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

well, technically, some use a single barrel weapon, like the Madcat (and the MWO generic graphic) so use this instead


http://en.wikipedia....%C3%A8le_F2_gun
which is also, not too far from being .5 tons

[Monky]

In battletech there are two kinds of MG's - man portable anti personel and light material MG's (think a future version of a squad MG or portable 50.cal) which might wreck light vehicles or covered infantry. Then there are the half ton beasts mounted on vehicles and in mechs which have at least short range anti armor capability when engaging armor that is in common use in BTech (heat/kinetic ablative composite). You have 2000 rounds in MWO (200 in BT) per ton of ammo - and we're also using 'future propellant' and 'future projectiles' as well, if that gives you an idea of how powerful these rounds have to be to even manage to dent 'future armor'. You're basically firing a gatling version of a low caliber semi auto cannon and simply trying to jackhammer your way through armor plate or internal structure.

Basically, they should have called mech/vehicle mount MGs mini cannons or something more accurate, their name is basically the only part about it that doesn't make sense given the setting.

[Strum Wealh]

Ghillie Dhu, on 08 April 2014 - 01:17 AM, said:

two questions realy :-
1. what is the calibre of the mg's in the game?
2. is there any reason why in the future, i shouldn't be able to change the round I use from standard to armour piercing?
3. Oh and a third . . . how about wp heat rounds that act like little narc missiles?

As far as weapon calibers go, another player compiled a list of many of the calibers mentioned in BattleTech (the source material from which MWO's content is derived).

Nebfer, on 08 August 2013 - 05:50 PM, said:

Parden the spelling, but this is from my raw files... (txt files)

================================
Machineguns
================================
20mm Gatling			  = 20mm (TRO 3039) skorpion tank entry
M100					  = 12.7mm (leithal hearitage) -Phawk
Johnston minigun		  = 20mm (temptation by war) Ranger VV1 -discribed as caseless (ch 14)
Scattergun				= 20mm (temptation by war) DI Schmitt
22mm Gatling			  = 22mm (TRO 3075) JES 1 entry
================================
Class 2 Autocannons
================================
Whirlwind-L			   = 32mm (Binding force) BlackJack BJ-1
Whirlwind-L			   = 30mm (Threads of ambition) Blackjack BJ-1
SarLon					= 30mm (TRO 3026) Warrior VTOL
Thor RAC-2				= 40mm (TRO 3058) Warrior VTOL
Mydron Model D-rf (Ultra) = 20mm (Imminent Crisis) Jagermech III  
Mydron Model D			= 30mm (Threads of ambition) Jagermech
Defiance Shredder LBX	 = 20mm (Fortress republic) -Catapult
================================
Class 5 Autocannons
================================
GM Nova 5  Ultra	  = 50mm (Binding force) -cataphract
GM Nova 5  Ultra	  = 40mm (Illusions of victory) -Cataphract
GM Whirlwind		  = 120mm (Thunder ridge & Wolves on the border) -Marauder
GM Whirlwind		  = 50mm (killing field) -Marauder
Armstrong J11		 = 80mm or 90mm (Thunder ridge) -Shawdow Hawk
Imperator-A		   = 80mm (Price of Glory) -Riflemen
Whirlwind			 = 60mm (Price of glory) -Wolverine
Whirlwind			 = 90mm (Wolves on the border) -Wolverine
Imperator Ultra AC-5  = 80mm (Storms of fate) -Vulcan & Daikyu
Armstrong AC-5		= 50mm (Double blind) -Clint
Armstrong AC-5		= 105mm (TRO 3075) -Merkava Hvy Tank
Pontiac Light		 = 40mm (Illusions of victory) -Striker mech
Snake killer LAC5	 = 60mm (Battlecorps) -Shadowhawk-9D
Mydron Model RC RAC5  = 50mm (A call to arms & fortress republic) -Legionnaire & Rifleman
Mydron Tornado  RAC5  = 50mm (By Temptations and By War) -DI Schmitt
Defiance type J AC-5  = 75mm (Heir to the dragon) -Zeus 6S
================================
Class 10 Autocannons
================================
Luxor-D				= 80mm (Price of glory, Ghost of winter) -Centuien
Mydron Excel UAC	   = 80mm (Patriots and tyrents) -Enforcer
Mydron Excel LBX	   = 80mm (Patriots and tyrents) -Dragon Fire
Mydron Excel LBX	   = 80mm (Illusions of victory)  -Cataphract
Defiance Disintegrator?= 100mm (end game) -Banshee
Mydron Model B		 = 80mm (Flash point) -Bushwacker
Federated AC-10		= 80mm (Flash point) -Enforcer
Imperator Code Red	 = 100mm (Flashpoint) -Challenger MBT
KaliYama			   = 80mm (Illusions of victory) -Orion
Imperator Code Red	 = 80mm (Illusions of victory) -Emperor
Imperator-B			= 80mm (Warrior en Guard) Urbanmech (implyed to be similer in caliber as the Riflemen)
================================
Class 20 Autocannons
================================
Death Giver				= 100mm (Heir to the dragon) -Atlas
Pontiac 100				= 100mm (Heir to the dragon) -Victor
Armstrong				  = 120mm (binding force) -Von Luckner MBT
Chemjet					= 185mm (TRO 3026) -Demolisher I tank
Crusher SH				 = 150mm (TRO 3026) -Hetzer Assault gun (or 120mm Threads of ambition)
Defiance Thunder Ultra	 = 120mm (Patriots and Tyrants) -Blitzkrig
Defiance Disintegrator LBX = 120mm (Patriots and Tyrants) -Barghest -Illusions of victory & The Dying time as well
Kali Yama Big Bore		 = 120mm (Threads of ambition) -Thunder
Tomodzuru				  = 180mm (Era Report 3052) -Hunchback
Luxuor Devastator		  = 120mm (Storms of fate) -Typhoon UAV
Death Giver				= 120mm (Storms of Fate) -King Crab

================================
Unknown type
================================
Jagermech "500mm" AC (Double blind) -most likely a typo
Mackie 5S AC-5 = 110mm (Birth of a King)
Jagermech 7F RAC-5 = 80mm
Templar omni, Grayson config AC-5 = 40mm (Imminent Crisis)
Blackjack omni LBX-10 = 80mm

Clan
Type 9 UAC 10 = 75mm
Type 10 UAC 20 = 120mm
Type 20 UAC 20 = 200mm
Type 25 UAC 2 = 50mm
Type 31 UAC 5 = 40mm
Type Kov LBX-10 = 75 or 150mm (same book two diffrent vehicles)
Type Covr-X 40mm

Wolves on the border LRMs = 75mm catapult ch 19
Gauss rifle = 10cm -starlord ch 2
infantry HMG "spanner" 15mm (not sure where this one is from)
Shrapnel mentions HE shells, a gray death book also mentions HE rounds...
blood legacy, unknown vtol, door mounted rotary 12.7mm MG
The Dying time, jeep mg = 13mm 43 gram -recount of thunder rift (1500 RPM)
temptation by war, ryoken II MGs = 20mm (likely AC-2s, as I do not think it has MGs)
patriots stand, generic gun trucks, 20mm "Gatling" MGs
flight of the falcon, mining mech mod, twin 50 cal MGs
Their are a few more but this is most of what I found, as one can see their is a few contradictions.

As noted, the average BT 'Mech-mounted machine gun has a bore on the order of 20mm, making them more similar to the cannons mounted on fighter aircraft (such as the previously-mentioned M61 (for multi-barrel rotary-type models), or the M39 (for single-barrel revolver-type models)) than to the machine guns used by infantry.

For the second and third points: BT 'Mech-mounted MGs fire "normal" bullets (that is, generally solid slugs) rather than payload-carrying shells, and did not have alternate munition types in the source material (that is, in BattleTech).