88 replies to this topic

[Davers]

R5D4, on 05 April 2014 - 08:31 PM, said:

Ah...fair point. I concede to that one.
Still I wonder if something couldn't be done with capacitors but maybe just not tied to engines.

More thought is required.

If it were tied to the mech, maybe. But if we need weight, critical slots, hardpoints, heat, range, ammo requirements, weapon cooldown times, different damage mechanics, and now capacitors to balance the weapons then we should just admit that balance just isn't possible.

[Monkeystador]

Ghost heat is an effective way to nerv single combinations. Most systems effecting everything is fated to have side effects.
The direct alternative is to cap alpha damage cap or different weapon convergence speed that prevents pinpon alpha unless you take more time to aim. Same as with fps shooters amd movement penalties on weapons.

[TexAce]

aniviron, on 05 April 2014 - 04:17 PM, said:

Though there haven't been a lot of complaints, (Well, there have been, but not about any of these specific builds in particular; just search the gameplay balance forum for 'autocannon' if you want a specific list of complaints that have been leveled against them in the last six months) all of those builds are significantly more powerful than a triple PPC build or a quad llas build; I just don't like that this punishment arbitrarily makes every single energy-heavy loadout much worse, while doing nothing to curb the power of ballistic-heavy builds that are already significantly better than the energy builds anyway. It just gets more obscene when you have a mech like the BNC-3E which can do quad AC5 with room to spare for some backup weapons.

You won't find me defending ghost heat; again, I feel like there has to be a better way to balance out the heat mechanics than screwing over every energy-dependent variant more than they already are.

Why not just raise the heat of AC5, UAC5s and AC10s?

Monkeystador, on 06 April 2014 - 12:33 AM, said:

Ghost heat is an effective way to nerv single combinations. Most systems effecting everything is fated to have side effects.
The direct alternative is to cap alpha damage cap or different weapon convergence speed that prevents pinpon alpha unless you take more time to aim. Same as with fps shooters amd movement penalties on weapons.

Everyone would love convergence to play a role since it would fix a lot of balance problems we have right now but the devs are simply not good enough to make it work in a HSR server-side world.

[aniviron]

TexAss, on 06 April 2014 - 11:30 AM, said:

Why not just raise the heat of AC5, UAC5s and AC10s?

To raise the heat on autocannons enough that it would matter at all, it'd have to be doubling, tripling, maybe more, and I don't think that's a good solution, or one that anyone is going to like at all. If we're going to put the heat cap at 30 and return DHS to being 2 heat/second, then dropping ammo back to tabletop levels (i.e. halving it in this game) would be the way to go. Essentially, heatsinks are energy weapon ammo- they're a system that takes tons and crits to enable to fire your weapons, the more of them you take, the longer you can fire. The difference between energy and ballistic builds is that with energy weapons you're still going to run out of 'ammo' (heat) during pretty much every extended engagement, but will never run out overall. Ballistics don't run out of firing capability in the middle of a fight, but running out of ammo overall is a concern. Dropping ammo to more normalized levels should help create parity between ammo-based weapons and energy weapons, as it preserves the intended ratio of tonnage that a build is required to devote to supporting its weapons.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

aniviron, on 06 April 2014 - 11:48 AM, said:

To raise the heat on autocannons enough that it would matter at all, it'd have to be doubling, tripling, maybe more, and I don't think that's a good solution, or one that anyone is going to like at all. If we're going to put the heat cap at 30 and return DHS to being 2 heat/second, then dropping ammo back to tabletop levels (i.e. halving it in this game) would be the way to go. Essentially, heatsinks are energy weapon ammo- they're a system that takes tons and crits to enable to fire your weapons, the more of them you take, the longer you can fire. The difference between energy and ballistic builds is that with energy weapons you're still going to run out of 'ammo' (heat) during pretty much every extended engagement, but will never run out overall. Ballistics don't run out of firing capability in the middle of a fight, but running out of ammo overall is a concern. Dropping ammo to more normalized levels should help create parity between ammo-based weapons and energy weapons, as it preserves the intended ratio of tonnage that a build is required to devote to supporting its weapons.

AC ammo was only increased by 50% not doubled.

[Bacl]

Lower heat cap and faster dissipation all the way! A mech with over 29 heatsinks shouldnt accumulate heat while chaining or firing a single medium or a large laser. Shooting them in batteries however then in that case i should accumulate heat. Right now the whole heat system is broken, ballistic dont care, energy and even missiles do suffer from it.

[Darian DelFord]

So the general consensus is Lower heat threshold and raise heat dissipation, seems like it would work and not punish the Laser folks. but I am sure it would make the AC folks a bit more powerful.

[Dulahan]

Add Autocannons being thematic - AKA, "Stream" fire. Pull the trigger, fire a stream of shells, not just one pinpoint damage. The only 'theme' pinpoint weapons are Gauss and PPC. Heck, I read every Battletech book last year (Novels) and half the Dark ages. In NONE of them is the AC anything but a 'stream' weapon. Pull trigger, fire a cannister of shells, multiple, not one.

Likewise, the same for LRMs - which would actually help deal with the upcoming Clan LRM with no minimum range problem too. What is this? That LRMS are DUMB FIRED! They Do Not Lock On. Not unless TAG or NARC helps them to. And even then they shouldn't have every missile hit. This would mean in close range, Clan LRMs will be like a shotgun instead. (Bonus points if they add a World of Tanks style Artillery shot method for LRMs)

Then add a charge fire mechanic for PPCs just like Gauss (Heck, PPCs are actually more thematic to require a charge!).

BOOM! Things would probably work a lot better!

Extra bonus points if they take it a bit further and add 'hardpoint sizes' - So certain hardpoints can't take "Large" weapons. Like, for instance, the CT of a Shadowhawk can only get max size AC10, not put an AC20 there. Only the Hunchback would have a "Large" Ballistic point. Or any mech with say, 3 Energy slots on the arms? They're only Mediums, no Large Lasers or PPCs on said arms. That would change builds a lot, but would help a lot with preventing Boating.

[Khobai]

Quote

So the general consensus is Lower heat threshold and raise heat dissipation

stupid fix IMO. all that does is prevent mechs with a lot of hardpoints from using all their hardpoints. the heat capacity needs to stay where it is so mechs with 10-12 hardpoints actually use all their hardpoints. otherwise whats the point of having that many hardpoints? whats the point of the nova having 12 lasers if it cant fire them all?

I personally think we need high heat threshold, high heat dissipation, slower fire rates, and graduated heat penalties. we also need damage spreading mechanics on weapons like ACs/PPCs to help curb FLD. Doing that would get us as close to battletech as possible for a live action game.

Edited by Khobai, 07 April 2014 - 08:58 PM.