63 replies to this topic

[Mister Blastman]

Now I know some of you are probably rolling your eyes at yet ANOTHER SRM topic. I promise, this one isn't a rant, a whine or anything such. Instead, it is objective and seeks empirical and factual answers. To help begin our short journey into what I'm getting at, I start us off with some interesting figures based on footage I recorded on May 28th, 2013 that I found sitting around growing mold on it and compare it with yesterday.

The Mech:
Trebuchet 3C
4x Medium Lasers
2x SRM 6s

The weapons used this entire experiment:
2x SRM 6s. Nothing else is fired.

The Location:
Testing Grounds--Forest Colony

The figures from May 28th, 2013:
A. Catapult
a1: Range: 22 Meters
a2: Alphas to kill (that is a single salvo of 2x SRM 6s): 5 to the center torso

B. Atlas
b1: Range: 49 Meters
b2: Alphas to kill: 9

The figures from Yesterday, April 4th, 2014:
A. Catapult
a1: Range: 22 Meters
a2: Alphas to kill: 7 to 9 (on average, 8)

B. Atlas
b1: Range: 22 Meters
b2: Alphas to kill: 12 every time


What happened? Why are the SRMs worse, not even slightly better?

To help with this mystery, I present a timeline of events that influenced SRMs.

March 21st, 2013:
http://www.qqmercs.com/?p=986
Talk about removing splash damage

March 22nd, 2013:
http://www.qqmercs.com/?p=1158
Hotfix drops SRM damage from 2.5 to 1.5
Splash is being investigated but not removed yet due to CT coring bug with LRMs if removed

May 21st, 2013:
http://www.qqmercs.com/?p=2382
SRM flight path tweaked.

June 4th, 2013:
http://www.qqmercs.com/?p=2550
SRM spread reduced from 8 meters to 6 meters. It has not been changed since?
HSR for unguided missiles introduced

July 16th, 2013:
http://mwomercs.com/...23-16-jul-2013/
GHOST HEAT (boooo hiss!)
and
SRM damage BUFF! to 2.0 per missile

July 30th, 2013:
http://www.qqmercs.com/?p=3128
SRM max range fixed??? (they weren't going far enough, after this patch they do)

August 20th, 2013:
http://mwomercs.com/...39-20-aug-2013/
Streak SRM damage increased to 2.5

September 3rd, 2013:
http://www.qqmercs.com/?p=3410
SRM cooldown reduced for 2s and 4s

October 15th, 2013:
http://www.qqmercs.com/?p=3521
SRM shake reduced

So there we have it.




My video was recorded on May 28th. My SRMs in the video were far more effective on May 28th than now. 33% more effective against an Atlas and 40 - 80% more effective against a Catapult. That is a BIG DIFFERENCE! Remember, on May 28th, SRM damage was 1.5 per missile.

Now... some things worth note from all the dates above...

June 4th, flight path TIGHTENED. This means more missiles dealing damage to a single location. Sounds good, right? This should have been an improvement.

Also, on June 4th, HSR was implemented for unguided missiles like the SRMs. Well, since I'm using Testing Grounds, this should be a non-issue, right?

July 16th, damage buff! From 1.5 to 2.0. That's a 33% INCREASE in damage!


How can this be, Blastman? I don't get it! We saw damage spread reduced and damage per missile increased since May 28th, yet... we are doing far less damage?

What gives?

To be fair, I've considered one thing... perhaps it is the chassis tweaks where damage is being spread to the legs. That sounds reasonable, right? Thing is, the Trebuchet is so tall I'm looking down onto the top of the Catapult when performing the test, shooting it in the exact same spot. The damage isn't being transferred to the legs.

The Atlas... well, possibly.

I could upload the videos. I might get around to doing that. But for now, this is something I'm hoping my fellow forum warriors can crunch through and figure out.

Since May 28th we've had several buffs to SRMs, yet we are doing less damage with them now than then... on the Training Grounds. The Training Grounds should rule out any HSR related things, right? What else could it be?

One thing is for sure. PGI has utterly, completely failed to improve SRMs at all since May 28th. They are worse now than they were then and that was AFTER SRMs received their major nerf.

[Mcgral18]

I don't believe splash damage was ever removed either, just set to 5 CM, down from however many meters.

I'm curious if they could code it so the splash would be bigger/how it used to be, but only damage a single component instead of multiple. I imagine that would help a fair bit with hit detection, giving it a wider area to hit.

Because if 1.5 damage SRMs were more effective with a larger spread than 2.0 SRMs, there's a pretty big issue there.

[Daekar]

Sounds like disappearing SRM hits is still a problem. Leave your missile hardpoints at home.

[Mazzyplz]

BUT!

do you wanna be able to shoot in your first person shooter?

cause that's all fluff!!

i say they just stick to using all manpower on community warfare.
which is a pretty map .gif you will be taken before and after your deathmatch rounds so you can have the illusion of depth
definitely. the latter is more important.

[Duncan Aravain]

PGI has obviously used their known talent and acumen to address the SRM problem, you are just seeing the results of their labor.





.

[El Bandito]

PGI should just replace current buggy SRM with LBX projectiles covered with SRM skin. No splash. Then adjust speed and spread.

Voila. Best band-aid fix.

Edited by El Bandito, 06 April 2014 - 09:03 AM.

[Avimimus]

Maybe ballistics, LRMs, Pulse Lasers and streaks just got better...? So we now preceive SRMs as worse?

[FupDup]

Avimimus, on 06 April 2014 - 09:07 AM, said:

Maybe ballistics, LRMs, Pulse Lasers and streaks just got better...? So we now preceive SRMs as worse?

Ballistics are mostly the same as they've always been. The most recent change to them was nerfing the UAC/5 RoF to 1.5 seconds (used to be 1.1) and changing the jam chance to 20%. Pulse lasers only got a tiny range increase and a heat decrease on the LPL. Streaks haven't been changed in a while, they're a bit weird.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

El Bandito, on 06 April 2014 - 09:02 AM, said:

Voila. Best band-aid fix.

Paul does love his cheap halfass bandaid fixes....

[Maggiman]

When i got my first Victor, Srms did seem to be somewhat stronger...but that might be my imagination...

Edited by Maggiman, 06 April 2014 - 09:32 AM.

[aniviron]

I like your style, OP. One thing I'd ask for, however, is repeat tests. It's not good science unless you run the test over again (and again, and again and...). Especially due to the semi-random nature of SRMs, it's important to load up repeated instances of the test and see if it takes the same number of volleys to kill in all the tests. If it does, then we have solid evidence that SRMs have gotten worse, or that something has changed about how damage is applied in the testing grounds. Otherwise, it could have been a fluke of the testing server.

While SRMs getting worse despite the buffs seems to match what I have anecdotally seen in the live environment, it could just be confirmation bias here.

[Davers]

Damn you Testing Grounds! Why do you so easily find problems that PGI's metrics and game tools can't?!?

[Deathlike]

Here's what SRMs are supposed to do:
1) Scare poptarts
2) Kill bad lights that get in your way
3) Punish slow assault mechs

Here's what SRMs actually do:
1) Tickle your mech
2) Work like LBX (aka generally useless)
3) Missing In Action - Like Congress

I'm sure PGI will get to fixing SRMs... this coming Christmas... 2015.

Edited by Deathlike, 06 April 2014 - 01:32 PM.

[OneEyed Jack]

You won't find the issue by looking at missile/SRM updates. Nor is it in the original implementation of HSR. I can't recall at this time the exact patch, but it was post-HSR for missiles. I was using SRMs regularly, as my primary ride was a brawling 733C, so I pretty much knew immediately when they went from working consistently (as much as a spread weapon can) to having serious problems. Looking at the notes for the patch that had just gone up at the time, the only thing mentioned that could possibly be related was some kind of performance boost, though I don't recall the specifics. Maybe one of the improvements to bandwidth load?

[Trauglodyte]

Quote

Here's what SRMs are supposed to do:
1) Scare poptarts
2) Kill bad lights that get in your way
3) Punish slow assault mechs

Here's what SRMs actually do:
1) Tickle your mech
2) Work like LBX (aka generally useless)
3) Missing In Action - Like Congress

I'm sure PGI will get to fixing SRMs... this coming Christmas... 2015.

Sadly, SRMs were only ever good at killing lights when the broken splash was in game. Due to how they're coded, you can't pair them with any other kind of weapon except for another projectile spread weapon short of you just hitting your targets head on.

I run them on a few mechs but the swings from game to game are staggering. And, I never know if my overall damage should have been greater or not.



PS> Do not ever try using SRMs on a shut down mech. Had a 'Mando overheat on me the other night in Caustic Valley while I was in my Wolverine. I put two SRM6 packs and a Md Laser dead center into its chest and nothing happened. The paper doll flashed, my reticle went red, and all of the damage connected. But, God strike me down if I'm lying, he powered back up and took off like I burped in his direction.

[aniviron]

Trauglodyte, on 06 April 2014 - 02:32 PM, said:

PS> Do not ever try using SRMs on a shut down mech. Had a 'Mando overheat on me the other night in Caustic Valley while I was in my Wolverine. I put two SRM6 packs and a Md Laser dead center into its chest and nothing happened. The paper doll flashed, my reticle went red, and all of the damage connected. But, God strike me down if I'm lying, he powered back up and took off like I burped in his direction.

Hahaha, you think that's bad? I run an AWS-8R with quad SRM6s; I can't tell you the number of times I have pumped 48-72 missiles into the face of a shutdown light at under 50m, only for them to power up and not even have open armor. The latest patch hasn't changed anything, I've done it twice with 48 since the patch went live.

[Deathlike]

aniviron, on 06 April 2014 - 03:39 PM, said:

Hahaha, you think that's bad? I run an AWS-8R with quad SRM6s; I can't tell you the number of times I have pumped 48-72 missiles into the face of a shutdown light at under 50m, only for them to power up and not even have open armor. The latest patch hasn't changed anything, I've done it twice with 48 since the patch went live.

I'm hopelessly hoping the mid-month patch fixes "part of this" (but it isn't gonna fix them all).

Having BAP would help vs shutdown mechs (at least, seeing if your damage is connecting). It's also great for somewhat keeping ECM in check when you go with Artemis.

[Mister Blastman]

Trauglodyte, on 06 April 2014 - 02:32 PM, said:

Sadly, SRMs were only ever good at killing lights when the broken splash was in game. Due to how they're coded, you can't pair them with any other kind of weapon except for another projectile spread weapon short of you just hitting your targets head on.

Say what?

SRMs from late 2012/early 2013 were amazing!

I ran them on mixed builds all the time, especially Dragons. They were deadly against anything and everything. My Hunchback 4SP (pre-speed nerf) was a death dealer. Those twin six packs would wreck everything.

I had no problem at all managing them with autocannons and lasers--and back then we even had firing delays to deal with. It still was worth using them.

What we have now--hell, I don't know what we have now. It should be much stronger considering the patch history but they actually went in the opposite direction.

[Rebas Kradd]

Mister Blastman, on 05 April 2014 - 06:39 PM, said:

One thing is for sure. PGI has utterly, completely failed to improve SRMs at all since May 28th.

PGI hasn't worked on SRMs since then. The only thing they've addressed is server-side hit effect.

[Mister Blastman]

Rebas Kradd, on 06 April 2014 - 04:57 PM, said:

PGI hasn't worked on SRMs since then. The only thing they've addressed is server-side hit effect.

Yes, they have. Or did you not even bother to read my original post?