18 replies to this topic

[Gigaflop]

I would like to see a change to the UAC 5 mechanic.

It is clearly derived from a pen and paper game and although I do respect the lore; there is no reason to continue with this random chance to fire twice... in military terms this would be a negligent discharge.

I have a few options to suggest:

1. the Spool up. Here the weapon would not fire right away but the barrels would begin their rotation for a short time, the weapon would then begin firing at a faster rate with a chance to jam. This allows the weapon fire single shots until you release the trigger.

2. The Ramp. The weapon fires when triggered but the rate of fire ramps up; shot... 1,5 sec shot 1.25 sec shot...1.0 sec shot where it remains at 1 shot/sec until you stop firing. In this version there would be no jam chance for the first three rounds as those rounds are already chambered. this would change that "jam cannon" feel of firing one round and then jamming. The time between shots was selected for example, the can be tweeked.

3. The Faster. The weapon just fires faster instead of double shots. Jam mechanics would remain.

The options above are just thoughts but I could flesh them out if anyone wants. I do believe that these could offer a more rational, intuitive experience with the weapons and they would remain balanced yet unique as, I believe, was the intent.

There is just one more item... multi UAC 5s are totally different. The above cannot balance the 2 and 3 UAC 5 mechs out there. The only way they can be balanced is by having them jam either:

1. All Together. if one UAC jams, all UACs will be affected. The rational explanation would be that jam has blocked ammo feed from operating until the jam is resolved. this would make the chain fire macro work around less effective. I think people would just stop using the multi UAC 5 builds, but perhaps some would adapt.

2. Based on Numbers. 1 UAC 5 has x% chance to jam, 2 UAC 5s have x+5% chance to jam, 3...x+10% and so on. This would allow people to chain or link fire but they would not be advised to just stand and shoot as eventually they will be all gummed up.

Obviously some of these combinations could have undesirable results but...
Please lets have Ultra Autocannon 5 adopt a logical mechanic!!!

Thank you

[Spheroid]

I am happy where the UAC-5 is currently. I use chain fire for dual setups as it massively reduces jam odds while still having a better DPS than AC-5s. Also I enjoy its role as a niche ballistic weapon on mediums where you just don't have a lot of weight to play with.

The only change that must be made is jamming on the first shot.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

I would like to see some kind of magazine mechanic. For example (all numbers are for demonstration purposes only):

-UACs have a "magazine" that can store a certain number of rounds. For the UAC5 lets say 5 rounds.

-The UAC fires at twice the speed of its normal AC counterpart. The UAC5 would fire every 0.75 seconds.

-Ammo is added to the magazine at the same rate at the normal AC. The UAC5 would load a new round into the magazine every 1.5 seconds.

Eventually the UAC would be firing at the same rate as the normal AC since it depletes its magazine faster than it can reload it. It would get rid of the annoying random jam but still offer more power for the weight. I'm not sure how well this would work with larger UACs but adjusting the magazine size for each weapon could probably account for such things.

Maybe add a spin up mechanic too.

Edited by Rouken, 05 April 2014 - 11:28 AM.

[Gigaflop]

first shot jams do suck...
but my focus was not where the UAC5 is... it was the double shot mechanic that just doesn't make sense for a non turn based game.
higher rate of fire with a jam chance makes more sense in a real time environment

[Gigaflop]

Rouken,
I have heard the magazine suggestion before... but my main concern is that it is not intuitive. try putting that into a mouse over tooltip, right.
I do believe the UAC needs to jam though. its a major part of the flavour

[Nathan Foxbane]

On TT it is not a random chance to fire twice. It is a random chance to jam when fired at double rate. Basically a 2 round bust fire option which may jam when engaged. Otherwise it functions as a standard autocannon. As currently implemented it could be worse. It could be true to the table top and jam for the rest of the game.

Option 1: This is a more likely scenario for balancing rotary autocannons which are weapons we will not have access to for quite some time.

Option 2: Also a good rotary autocannon mechanic.

Option 3: This has been tried at some point, I cannot recall the exact numbers used and time period. I do recall it being tried both with and without the jamming mechanic.

Multi weapon concerns.

Option 1: Not logical for the way Ultras class autocannons work. The basic function behind an Ultra is the loading mechanism of the weapon itself has an option to boost the cyclic rate of fire, but the strain on the system can cause jams. Multiple weapons drawing from the same ammo bin is irrelevant as it is the loading mechanism that is at fault not the feed from the bins. Each Ultra has its own dedicated feed belts.

Option 2: Also not logical. Since each autocannon is an independent system any chance to jam is only for the given weapon, not a group of weapons.

As stated above mounting multiple weapons is both a way to reduce potential jamming using chainfire or using group fire a gamble to not only put out more damage, but sustain fire in if one or more weapons jam.

The random chance to fire twice (in less than .25 sec) seems to me not so much a feature as a bug in the way the system registers rapid key clicks. Especially since the devs have never stated that rapid double tap is an intended feature. I have never had a double discharge when I only meant to fire off a single shot or when I just hold down the key. Currently ultras can short cycle two rounds before it goes into a standard full cool down period. Also, as stated in Spheroid's post, the only thing that should be changed is that it should not be able to jam on the first shot after a full cooldown.

Rouken, on 05 April 2014 - 11:26 AM, said:

I would like to see some kind of magazine mechanic. For example (all numbers are for demonstration purposes only):

-UACs have a "magazine" that can store a certain number of rounds. For the UAC5 lets say 5 rounds.

-The UAC fires at twice the speed of its normal AC counterpart. The UAC5 would fire every 0.75 seconds.

-Ammo is added to the magazine at the same rate at the normal AC. The UAC5 would load a new round into the magazine every 1.5 seconds.

Eventually the UAC would be firing at the same rate as the normal AC since it depletes its magazine faster than it can reload it. It would get rid of the annoying random jam but still offer more power for the weight. I'm not sure how well this would work with larger UACs but adjusting the magazine size for each weapon could probably account for such things.

If they ever do manufacturer weapon variations this would be a good feature. Many Ultra AC models are noted as being clip fed (though burst fire in nature) and ultra mode has the AC fast cycling clips for double bursts.

[Gigaflop]

Excellent post Nathan.
It is good to hear the TT rules.
I was a little more interested in the option 3 path as it seem like the easiest fix, perhaps they will revisit it again.

as for the multi ultras... it just doesn't feel right to me. I sense that no body uses a single UAC5 on their build, and to me, regardless of the illogical explanation... the UAC5 should be balanced for both single and multi users...i.e. the jam chance Is just to high to use only one ... therefore...

I guess the other option would be ghost heat LOL

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Gigaflop, on 05 April 2014 - 11:34 AM, said:

Rouken,
I have heard the magazine suggestion before... but my main concern is that it is not intuitive. try putting that into a mouse over tooltip, right.
I do believe the UAC needs to jam though. its a major part of the flavour

Yeah, I'm sure I'm not the first to come up with that. As for being intuitive I think you under estimate people. The magazine concept is almost ingrained into anyone who has played a shooter since Golden Eye so I don't think it would need much explaining.

A line such as "The ultra auto cannon uses a magazine to store ammo allowing for a higher rate of fire for a short time compared to other auto cannons" would probably be sufficient. No worse than the gauss rifle at least.

As for flavor, firing 3 shots over 15 seconds because of the jam has left a bad taste in my mouth. Can't really lower the jam though, because at 15% they were pushing out almost every other weapon.

[TELEFORCE]

What I'd like to see is how the current UAC mechanic is adapted or modified to fit the Clan Ultra ACs, those being the UAC/2, 5 10, and 20.

[Gigaflop]

ya Teleforce 2,5, and 10s are a whole 'nother thing I dunno what will happen there

Roukan, fair enough on the magazines but as I recall the 15% jam was when triple UAC5 showed up, but I don't think single UAC5s were "pushing out" the other weapons in nearly the same way,if at all.

[Nathan Foxbane]

Gigaflop, on 05 April 2014 - 11:56 AM, said:

Excellent post Nathan.
It is good to hear the TT rules.
I was a little more interested in the option 3 path as it seem like the easiest fix, perhaps they will revisit it again.

as for the multi ultras... it just doesn't feel right to me. I sense that no body uses a single UAC5 on their build, and to me, regardless of the illogical explanation... the UAC5 should be balanced for both single and multi users...i.e. the jam chance Is just to high to use only one ... therefore...

I guess the other option would be ghost heat LOL

Thank you for the compliment.
You would be mistaken about single Ultras. I swear by a lone Ultra on a Shadow Hawk 2D2 or Wolverine 6R. They will become much more common when Clan Omnimechs are released as larger ones will be available. How a player uses it is a big deal and learning to control the urge to fire as fast as possible takes a bit. Alone it is a mid-range skirmisher/harasser and burst damage weapon and should be treated as such. Snapshots at range or passing between cover/poptarting are the primary uses. It becomes an augment to lasers and missiles in straight up fights, even if it can be a big pinpoint damage dealer, because it cannot be relied upon to keep firing. Great weapon for hit-and-run or peek-n-shoot styles of play because jams just mean a player has to run or take cover sooner.

I think triple Ultra 5s do suffer ghost heat just like regular AC/5s.

Edited by Nathan Foxbane, 05 April 2014 - 12:26 PM.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Gigaflop, on 05 April 2014 - 12:14 PM, said:

ya Teleforce 2,5, and 10s are a whole 'nother thing I dunno what will happen there

Roukan, fair enough on the magazines but as I recall the 15% jam was when triple UAC5 showed up, but I don't think single UAC5s were "pushing out" the other weapons in nearly the same way,if at all.

Not quite. Triple UAC5 was run before that. Its obviously becomes more common as the reliability of the UAC5 increases.

You're right, I misspoke. UAC5s were not pushing out individual weapons. UAC5 builds were pushing out non UAC5 builds. Perhaps we had very different experiences during that time if you didn't see almost everyone using them.

TELEFORCE brings up a good point too. As far as I can tell the Dire Wolf should be able to support 2xUAC20s. Is the 20% jam rate going to be OK for that?

Edited by Rouken, 05 April 2014 - 12:36 PM.

[Gigaflop]

Nathan,
I don't question the value of single UAC5s. I have a single UAC5 on 3 different mechs, including the SHD-2D2
I think they are fun and effective... but... they are not same value as multi UACs. the IIlya triple UAC5 rolls around with nothing but UAC5s... but something tells me you got other weapons on your builds and rightly so! but the iilya or jaeger out there don't use other weapons because they don't need to.
I do use a multi UAC5 on my Yen Lo Wang. and its jam mechanics feels about right to me. the single UAC5s do seem a little too jammy to me
so I submit to you that ultras need to be balanced not against other weapons but against themselves, i.e. 2 Ultras should be merely twice as good as a single.

Thoughts?

[Nathan Foxbane]

Gigaflop, on 05 April 2014 - 12:58 PM, said:

Nathan,
I don't question the value of single UAC5s. I have a single UAC5 on 3 different mechs, including the SHD-2D2
I think they are fun and effective... but... they are not same value as multi UACs. the IIlya triple UAC5 rolls around with nothing but UAC5s... but something tells me you got other weapons on your builds and rightly so! but the iilya or jaeger out there don't use other weapons because they don't need to.
I do use a multi UAC5 on my Yen Lo Wang. and its jam mechanics feels about right to me. the single UAC5s do seem a little too jammy to me
so I submit to you that ultras need to be balanced not against other weapons but against themselves, i.e. 2 Ultras should be merely twice as good as a single.

Thoughts?

That is hard with the concept of Ultras. Even regular ACs tend to be more than twice as good in multiples because of front end loading of damage or screen shake. I do not really mind them scaling as it is a risk reward gamble. Most mechanics have their min/max ideal, but I personally find that multi Ultra platforms other an an Atlas or Victor have too little endurance and their pilots waste lots of ammo trying to put their rate of fire to use. The tripple Ultra Illyas and Jagers are simply not as impressive as the dual gauss variant because of cover. If they catch 'Mechs in the open they have incredible potential, but they seem to just fold if pressed by a good light or medium pilot. So it becomes a matter of pilot skill on both sides.

[Davers]

Spheroid, on 05 April 2014 - 11:10 AM, said:

I am happy where the UAC-5 is currently. I use chain fire for dual setups as it massively reduces jam odds while still having a better DPS than AC-5s. Also I enjoy its role as a niche ballistic weapon on mediums where you just don't have a lot of weight to play with.

The only change that must be made is jamming on the first shot.

Doesn't it have exactly the same RoF when chainfired? They have the same 1.5 second cooldown according to Smurfy.

[Spheroid]

@Davers:

No, go to testing grounds and loadup 2x AC-5 vs. 2x UAC-5 with one ton of ammo. If you repeat the experiment enough you can get a lucky run without jamming. The depletion rate is something like 15 seconds vs. 20. So when chained the ultra must be spending some amount of time both in and out of double tap mode owing to the firing delay. The DPS is lower but so are the jam odds. Dual UAC-5 in group fire almost always jams after the second or third shot. You can also compare a single UAC-5's rate of ammo use next to dual chain fire. I realize the damage is less, but the lessened jamming is totally worth it to me.

I run both ultra and standard AC-5 Jagers, I don't have a favorite.

Edited by Spheroid, 05 April 2014 - 07:29 PM.

[xXBagheeraXx]

Uacs are actually supposed to always fire a double shot....it was selectable in the lore tho, when it double tapped it had a chance to jam.

I believe in the lore its supposed to be BANGBANG *reload, jam chance* BANGBANG but the current system will jam you at the first shot so instead of the double shot you get one round off and bloody jam the things...That is really the only thing that needs to be changed.

The weapon you are describing are rotary auto cannons in all honestly, and its a long time before those are due...and i believe they will be clan first if memory serves.

[NovaWasp]

The UAC5 doesn't jam on the first shot, it jams because the trigger was held down too long. You need to let go almost immediately to prevent jamming.

[Strum Wealh]

xXBagheeraXx, on 06 April 2014 - 01:27 AM, said:

Uacs are actually supposed to always fire a double shot....it was selectable in the lore tho, when it double tapped it had a chance to jam.

I believe in the lore its supposed to be BANGBANG *reload, jam chance* BANGBANG but the current system will jam you at the first shot so instead of the double shot you get one round off and bloody jam the things...That is really the only thing that needs to be changed.

The weapon you are describing are rotary auto cannons in all honestly, and its a long time before those are due...and i believe they will be clan first if memory serves.

Strum Wealh, on 25 September 2012 - 03:51 AM, said:

Personally, I had thought of UACs as a take on the "Gast Gun" concept.

"The [Gast gun] uses two barrels combined into a single mechanism in such a way that the recoil from firing one barrel loads and charges the second. Ammunition was fed into the gun from two vertically mounted cylindrical drums, one on each side of the gun."


One modern example of the Gast gun being the Russian-built Gryazev-Shipunov GSh-23.
"The GSh-23 works on the Gast gun principle developed by German engineer Karl Gast of the Vorwerk company in 1916. It is a twin-barreled weapon in which the firing action of one barrel operates the mechanism of the other. It provides a much faster rate of fire for lower mechanical wear than a single-barrel weapon, although it cannot match the rate of fire of an electric Gatling gun like the M61 Vulcan."


Furthermore, I would think that "Standard ROF mode" would represent a safer and more reliable mode of operation that would be maintained by some sort of limiter built into the arming circuitry and fire control systems, while "Ultra mode" would double the rate of fire and could be achieved by disengaging the aforementioned limiter but risks jamming and/or damaging the gun.

By contrast, the RACs would be based on the Gatling gun/rotary cannon concept and would have a greater number of firing modes (standard ROF, 2x ROF, 4x ROF, and 6x ROF), but would be otherwise similar in operation/usage to the similarly-sized UACs.

Your thoughts?