58 replies to this topic

[Lykaon]

Rebas Kradd, on 07 April 2014 - 02:54 PM, said:

I'm in the camp that says 12 people on VOIP is a setup for disaster of a different kind. Confusing and conflicting orders, arguments, name-calling and trolling, all kinds of childish behavior. It happened in Counterstrike, and the result was people sticking to their "home" servers in order to play in the environment they wanted. They don't have that option here. So they'll just...turn it off.

And a lot of people just won't listen. What OP is describing is true to every game. People are morons, communication or no.

This is of course why pre drop lobbies are essential.There needs to be a form group/looking for group tool added.

Something like...

A drop commander forms a group and creates a chat channel in the process.

The newly formed group appears on a list of open groups that a player can request to join.

The chat channel creator (drop commander) can accept of decline join request.The drop commander can kick or reassign leadership.

Now we have a system that includes the tools to monitor and elliminate the concerns of trollish behavior.

Someone can't shut up,they get kicked from the group/channel don't want strangers in group don't accept them.

Eventually serious players will have a good sized list of actual reliable players to group with and encourage a formation of community and kinship with like minded players.

[ImperialKnight]

spawn points were changed because people were complaining about the deathball. breaking up the spawn points allowed less chance of deathballing. so basically they nerfed teamwork

[Navy Sixes]

Pugs Are Set Up To Fail - Why?

Because we're worthless, clueless, idiotic, mangy, no-good, waste-of-a-mech scumbags whose only merit is being cheaper than AI. We're filler. Content. Our learning curve is unimportant. Our survivability is not only unlikely; it's actively discouraged. We're here so that leet skilzer prems can shoot at something marginally more interesting than the shut-downs in the testing grounds. Any entertainment we draw from this game only underscores the depraved, twisted, masochistic nature of the average solo PUG at large. You can't fix stupid. Hangin's too good for 'em.

PUG life, baby. PUG life.

Edited by Tycho von Gagern, 07 April 2014 - 09:02 PM.

[Lynx7725]

Play Skirmish. Learn how to play in a team with little to no comms. Skirmish is amazingly good at teaching PUGs not to wander off on their own.

[wanderer]

Why are PUGs set up to die?

Because when you build a game with units designed for an era far, far ahead of when we actually had real-time voice comms to keep people together and DON'T have reasonable communication, you are now playing Cat-Herder Online instead.

The difference between a team linked with VOIP and one that isn't is night and day. MWO's command and control setup for a team is horrible for what it needs to be in order to have any level of effectiveness, limiting most games to a single premade lance having real levels of C3 while the rest stumbles around like a blind sailor. Arguably, if you can get the rest to follow your lead this can work...but trying to fight and type at the same time is asking for it.

Heck, in-universe they realized commanders had issues multitasking and THAT is why the command console exists in the first place! It gave you a "13th man" slot for the unit lead while someone else did the fighting, letting the commander focus on running the unit.

[Bobzilla]

Pugs aren't set up to fail, as they are against pugs. 2 sides cannot both be set up to fail. Other than bad luck with the MM the only other factor to tip the scales are premades, which again can be on both sides. The only way to limit the imbalance that happens from time to time is communication.


Add in game voip, add grouping options during drop, remove group size restrictions.

Have voip with channels, team, lance, group.
Have mute player option and voip toggle.

Adresses ability for teamwork, (death ball is not a tactic, it's the only viable option).
Adresses premade advantage, (no difference between 12 man premade and 12 puggers with voip other than preparation, which 3/3/3/3 will partially balance).
Adresses the worry of disruptive, or too many players talking (mute, or talk with lance/group. Want your group to communicate with the rest of the team, have one person in both channels that won't get freaked out by the potential of 12 people talking).
Adresses lack of scocial aspect, (being able to group easy in a drop will organically form scocial groups of like minded players who play at similar times).

Edited by Bobzilla, 08 April 2014 - 04:40 AM.

[Grommen]

I played BF2 for several years and 2142 for a long time as well.

Can't recall many issues with children messing up my VOIP.

Can remember many times when being able to say "Hay behind you" to someone I didn't know that happened to be in my squad. This saved us both.

Team work is OP. I would really like some.

They made the spawn points worse by moveing them around. Because on several of the maps two lances are close, and one is out flapping in the brease. However the single lance is really close to two lances on the other team. So whom ever figures this out first just rolls over the odd lance, and keeps going.

Besides that people are truly stupid. Even though they know this information, I've seen 12 players go 13 differant directions at the start of a match.

You can't fix stupid. If they don't understand the concept of "safty in numbers", it's just going to be a short match...

[Lucian Nostra]

I do always get a chuckle when people seem to think VOIP is going to solve all issues and be some great equalizer vs dropping against some friends on TS.

Nobody listens to anyone with typed messages, why is that suddenly gonna change if it's spoken?

Sure you can get some of those "Atlas exposed right torso" off but in general your group is still gonna just mill about how they want to and shoot at what they want to shoot at.

Personally if VOIP does come in it better have a tick to shut it off because I don't wanna hear any of the yelling, name calling, l337 players KDR, how much sex you had with my mom, your shitty hip hop music, smokers coughing, 10 year old squeeky voiced players crying about how much of a noob the guy on the other team is because he killed you with ACs/PPCS or LRMs, as no real player with skill needs.

Edited by Lucian Nostra, 08 April 2014 - 07:24 AM.

[Solahma]

Quote

I played BF2 for several years and 2142 for a long time as well.

Can't recall many issues with children messing up my VOIP.

Perfect example of a VOIP done right. Regular player's communication is limited to lance-mates only. Lance Commander can either speak to his lance OR to the Company Commander. The Company Commander of a team can speak to the other Lance Commanders or his own lance.

Of course this opens up the Trolling issue where people could jump into the commander seat just to mess with people... But you rarely see that with the current mechanics and being able to move people between lances. Battlefield's solution was an "Apply" feature which only allowed the top rank (in this case ELO) player, who applied, to be Company Commander.

There was also the option to vote-remove your Company Commander... not sure how that would work in MWO though as the game will be over before a vote can be decided, unless everyone votes quickly, I don't see that going very well. So a commander would be the commander for the entire game, like it is currently.

I believe this would help coordination considerably without introducing a chaotic VOIP atmosphere. There would be a clear chain of command. Maybe PGI could introduce incentives to taking the commander seat for the team or a lance. The commanders could get an XP and/or C-bill bonus if their team wins the match. Now there is a reason to take a leadership role and help your team to victory.

Of course there would be an option to mute players for the match... just in-case...

The other feature that the game is missing, as noted time and time again, is a communication rose. I thought that PGI confirmed they were working to implement one? I don't remember, can anyone else remind me? (besides the "hur der, PGI isn't giving us anything"

Not sure how it would function, but I have at least one idea. The communication rose would allow a player to "request help" or "Enemy closing" (among many others) and it would display either with a new text color in the chat area or a new location on the right side of screen under the "Target Mech" read-out. It would list the player's name or designation and the communication option chosen.

Another option is to also include voice dialogue reading out the communications, but that would involve voice acting. They could do this by opening up auditions via a community announcement. The incentive for the amateur voice-actors among us would be that their voice would be in the game forever. For die-hard MechWarrior fans, that might be reason enough to submit demos and work with PGI to get their voice in the game. I know it's a bit too late, but then again we got Cockpit class specifically for immersion (haters gunna hate).

Players would have the option to turn off communication rose audio and use text only. The rose would have a ~2-5 second delay before using again, to avoid spam. Every time a player uses the communication rose, the "Blue Triangle" friendly indicator of that mech would flash. This brings me to another point, we should be able to recognize who is who. Friendly triangles should have a name attached or, to remove clutter, a designation such as 1A, 2A, 3A, and 4A for Alpha Lance (1B, 2B, etc for Bravo Lance and 1C, 2C, etc for Charlie Lance) so they are not confused with grid locations. Then the rose is used, the text line on the top right will read "A3 requesting aid" or "C2 has spotted multiple targets advancing"

Edited by Solahma, 08 April 2014 - 07:37 AM.

[RussianWolf]

The single largest advantage you have in this game is VOIP and good use of it. No one can really argue that.

That being said, I don't use it. Why? Its not really a sporting advantage in PUGs. If I were in a competitive 12man, I would use VOIP and all that since the environment demands it. You are on a team that is supposed to act as one and should have and use all the asset they have at their disposal. The other team will also. In PUGs where any number of players on the other team can't say "Need help in c3" while they are piloting and shooting someone, again not sporting play in my opinion. It would be like the US Navy coordinating an attack on a dozen ships from a dozen countries, none of whom even speak the same language. A couple may figure out each others intentions and act as a unit, but the outcome would likely be the same. Not very sporting. I play the game to enjoy myself and using things that give that much of an advantage isn't enjoyable to me. Now the challenge of not using VOIP and beating those that do....... That's sporting. lol

I will also point out that as a veteran player and a pretty decent one for the most part. When the action starts, I can't read the chat. Too busy trying to kill and not be killed. Sometimes I look down at the minimap and see that my team has changed position and I'm out on a wing alone and need to high tale it. They may have even chatted about the move, but I missed it because my attention was on the battle. DON'T TEXT AND PILOT!!!

[Solahma]

RussianWolf, on 08 April 2014 - 07:59 AM, said:

I will also point out that as a veteran player and a pretty decent one for the most part. When the action starts, I can't read the chat. Too busy trying to kill and not be killed. Sometimes I look down at the minimap and see that my team has changed position and I'm out on a wing alone and need to high tale it. They may have even chatted about the move, but I missed it because my attention was on the battle. DON'T TEXT AND PILOT!!!

Another good point and another reason I would love to see a well implemented VOIP and voiced audio lines from a communication rose. IMO it would create a new level of immersion as well. One thing I really miss about the old campaign modes. Also another reason I found Ace Combat pretty entertaining for an unrealistic arcade-style game.

Another note about VOIP. Players who die could have their voip turn off automatically. If a player dies, he wouldn't be able to whine, cry, qq, or anything. Would be a bit more realistic too. Dead men tell no tales.

Edited by Solahma, 08 April 2014 - 08:07 AM.

[Bobzilla]

Lucian Nostra, on 08 April 2014 - 07:22 AM, said:

I do always get a chuckle when people seem to think VOIP is going to solve all issues and be some great equalizer vs dropping against some friends on TS.

Nobody listens to anyone with typed messages, why is that suddenly gonna change if it's spoken?

Sure you can get some of those "Atlas exposed right torso" off but in general your group is still gonna just mill about how they want to and shoot at what they want to shoot at.

Personally if VOIP does come in it better have a tick to shut it off because I don't wanna hear any of the yelling, name calling, l337 players KDR, how much sex you had with my mom, your shitty hip hop music, smokers coughing, 10 year old squeeky voiced players crying about how much of a noob the guy on the other team is because he killed you with ACs/PPCS or LRMs, as no real player with skill needs.

Why don't all the negative things you mention ever happen on TS? Take that reason and apply it when creating in game voip. There, your whole rant is pointless, regardless of set reason.

Oh and you can't listen to a typed message, which is kinda the point. Would you use TS if everytime somebody talked your screen went black and every time you talked none of your controls worked?

[Trauglodyte]

Nick Makiaveli, on 07 April 2014 - 12:34 PM, said:

A couple of points...

Chat doesn't work, but VOIP would suddenly cause PUGs to listen?

Lack of tutorials mean they have no clue, but we all know the vast majority wouldn't read/watch them, so umm yea.

PUGs are chickenshit, and most are KDR whores, so spawn points are to blame?

Let me help you here seeing as you thought I had a "tone".

Coordination in game with people not on comms is problematic at best and near impossible at worst. Typing orders and the convoluted command system makes things worse. Spreading people out when most people either won't listen or think that they may know better makes things worse.

I'm not bagging on PUGs. I'm just saying that some of the in game mechanics sets up some games for failure. As was said before, putting that one lance way too far out from the other two when the opposing side has its two lances close to your offset lance is a horrible thing and it happens on the larget maps (Terra Therma, Tourmaline, and Alpine). I'd be happy with a voice to chat option just to make it so that I don't have to stop moving to type things out. Even if there was VOIP, you're still not going to get PUGs to listen if they don't want to and I'm not asking for VOIP as priority #1. I'm simply saying that bringing the individual lance drop points closer together would be a wondererous start just to keep teams together. Playing 8 v 12 cause a lance didn't want to listen to the simplicity of "group up in <insert location>" isn't fun for anyone, PUGs or otherwise. (bolded and underlined in case my "tone" got in the way)

Edited by Trauglodyte, 08 April 2014 - 09:57 AM.

[Tremendous Upside]

I agree with a lot of what you're saying. But anyone that's spent time on TS in the past can tell you this whole notion of "groups vs. PUGs" gets played up a lot more than it really is. The vast majority of players in "groups" honestly aren't any better than your average pickup PUGs. They can range from very good players to facepalmingly terrible just as easily. While VOIP certainly does help, most groups I've dropped with don't use it effectively - if at all. Oftentimes it's close to dead silent in game aside from idle banter back and forth... If you simply want to win games more often than not and want your PUGs to work with you, it's not difficult. Just do what Mister Blastman does. Put a marker on the map, type "go there, kill @#$%" and then update the map as necessary. You'll win the majority of your games. Deathball tactics always have and still do rule.

It's a team game. And if you're teamed with PUGs, you can either try to win with them or in spite of them. Just don't let your frustration mount because you've ignored them entirely and expected them to do "more".

Edited by Banky, 08 April 2014 - 10:48 AM.

[FupDup]

[Sandpit]

I agree with some of the OP's sentiment but at the same time, uhm PGI is and has done everything it can to cater to PUGs in regards to MM. It's not the MM, it's the way they have decided to group up players. That's the core issue and they have completely dedicated themselves to it at this point from what I've seen.

Which basically means....


We went in a direction that has caused nothing but issues from the get go and continue down the same path trying to tweak it here and there instead of changing core fundamentals in how players are placed in a game together.
New players
Vets
Stock mechs
Customized mechs
New players starting middle of the pack Elo ratings
I could go on but THESE are what causes the MM to be "problematic"

[Trauglodyte]

I understand that, Banky. We've played with each other long ago and play against each other from time to time when the MM permits. I do not profess to be a top dog nor do I wallow in the bowels of the ELO. I'm a mid range guy and I accept that, both in my wins and failings. All that I'm saying is that there is enough in this game that works against the team, whether it be a Champion driver that got dropped into your game cause the MM needed people, because someone is driving a brand new mech and hasn't invested or doesn't have the cbills to invest in all of the upgrades let alone having fully maxed out the efficiencies, etc. Do we honestly need to spread people out and tempt them to go loan wolf against the odds? That's all that I'm saying. If we can pull the drop points a little bit closer so that we start off close together but not in a death ball, would that not at least provide the unspoken idea of sticking together, thus limiting the outliers?

[Voivode]

Nick Makiaveli, on 07 April 2014 - 02:46 PM, said:

I was being a bit sarcastic due to the tone I detected in the OP.

But since you are being reasonable etc, I see what you are saying, and yes VOIP is far superior to typing. However, PUGs are, as a rule, stupid.

Too many people trying to talk at once. Trolls giving silly or contradictory orders. Telling your momma jokes or lying about not being virgins. See my point?

If not I can go on. Either you only allow one person to talk, or else some will play music and jabber constantly so you can't understand what is being said. OR it will be a race to get the mic (just like with CC) and then if that person is a douche, no one else will get to talk.

Personally I will be on the DHB server and if I drop solo, and am not on TS, then I will turn off or mute the in-game VOIP unless I see someone I know from another unit etc.

Yeah. The same people posting on these forums will be the ones you have to listen to match after match after match. I think there's a simpler way to help organize the pugs (well, ATTEMPT to organize them, results will vary) without resorting to forcing people to listen to trolls all day.

A few keyboard shortcuts could go a long way to helping the spread of information. A single button that pings the grid location under your crosshairs on the minimaps of all of your team letting them know you spotted the enemy there (let Betty do the talking) or a hotkey the drop commander can use to toggle a command menu from outside the fullscreen map for quick commands. Things like that can allow better communication without forcing all players to listen to a deluge of crap from anonymous internet dwellers.

Also, better tutorials. *shakes head at complex games with no tutorials*

Edited by Voivode, 08 April 2014 - 11:10 AM.

[Tremendous Upside]

Trauglodyte, on 08 April 2014 - 10:56 AM, said:

I understand that, Banky. We've played with each other long ago and play against each other from time to time when the MM permits. I do not profess to be a top dog nor do I wallow in the bowels of the ELO. I'm a mid range guy and I accept that, both in my wins and failings. All that I'm saying is that there is enough in this game that works against the team, whether it be a Champion driver that got dropped into your game cause the MM needed people, because someone is driving a brand new mech and hasn't invested or doesn't have the cbills to invest in all of the upgrades let alone having fully maxed out the efficiencies, etc. Do we honestly need to spread people out and tempt them to go loan wolf against the odds? That's all that I'm saying. If we can pull the drop points a little bit closer so that we start off close together but not in a death ball, would that not at least provide the unspoken idea of sticking together, thus limiting the outliers?

Oh no... I'd fully agree the drop points have created more chaos than anything else. Again - I agree with most of what you've said The only thing the new drop spawns have done is determine the outcome in a larger percentage of games within the first 30 seconds. One lance goes left. One goes right, and you may as well disconnect (which seems to be happening more and more frequently)... It hasn't helped improve gameplay at all. Most of the maps are just too small... The smart players group up and deathball left or right around citadel, spire, etc. - regardless how far you space them apart. The bad ones split up and get rolled - then whine in the "dead box" over who's to blame. No idea how they felt it would work any other way as implemented - but it's a game change I'm definitely not a fan of.

[wintersborn]

Answer = Separate queues.

Problem = PGI.