27 replies to this topic

[Foxfire]

This last server migration has done a lot to improve hit detection in this game.. and I am starting to see more and more of something that I've warned against months ago.. that, as hit detection improves, the survivability of light significantly decreases due to the instant application of damage on certain weapon types and pinpoint accuracy.

So... as you improve hit detection while leaving in FLD weapons, what are you going to do to give light mechs a legitimate role on the battlefield that isn't direct combat?

[FupDup]

Probably not.


Go go Steiner Scout Company!

[Ultimax]

Foxfire, on 06 April 2014 - 05:23 PM, said:

This last server migration has done a lot to improve hit detection in this game.. and I am starting to see more and more of something that I've warned against months ago.. that, as hit detection improves, the survivability of light significantly decreases due to the instant application of damage on certain weapon types and pinpoint accuracy.

So... as you improve hit detection while leaving in FLD weapons, what are you going to do to give light mechs a legitimate role on the battlefield that isn't direct combat?

I agree there should be more scouting/non-damage focused roles supported in the game.

I've seen a lot of lights die because they are used to hopping in the middle of a bunch of assaults with near impunity, so perhaps it will take light pilots a bit of time to adjust to reality.

Except Spiders.

[Khobai]

Unlikely since that would require bigger maps, new gamemodes, and the implementation of role warfare. Thats the only way a non-combat role like scouting could ever be important enough.

[Adiuvo]

I play lights exclusively and haven't noticed any decreases to my survivability.

Then again I never really was one to play as I did when I had a lagshield, so...

[Foxfire]

Adiuvo, on 06 April 2014 - 05:45 PM, said:

I play lights exclusively and haven't noticed any decreases to my survivability.

Then again I never really was one to play as I did when I had a lagshield, so...

I've seen more instances where a momentary exposure gets me either cored or exemtremely damaged in an instant. As a Light, I try to be careful and not over commit but with the ease that spotting happens in this game, it only takes a moment to get drilled by a meta build in a light mech.

Edited by Foxfire, 06 April 2014 - 06:08 PM.

[YueFei]

Light mechs need to be able to safely scout enemies from a distance to do their job. It's not a gameplay balance issue if a Light mech can get splattered in 2 salvos up-close. But if you can't safely spot from long-range, that's a problem, because that impinges directly on role warfare.

I'm not sure if top Light mech pilots going up against the top marksmen in this game feel confident in being able to dodge long-range PPC+AC fire? If they are confident in doing this now, then it's fine.

If not, maybe they should slow down PPC and AC projectile speeds a little bit, little by little, until that's achieved.

Of course, that's not PGI's style when it comes to balancing. =P

[Khobai]

Quote

Light mechs need to be able to safely scout enemies from a distance to do their job

Right but the maps are so small that any reasonably fast heavy mech can scout just by walking up a hill and looking for the enemy. You simply dont need lights to perform the scouting role because of how small the maps are.

So the first big step towards making scouting a more important role is bigger maps. These maps we have now are pathetically small. Even the maps in MW4 were two or three times bigger and that was 8v8 (not 12v12 like MWO).

Edited by Khobai, 06 April 2014 - 06:25 PM.

[El Bandito]

Lights were used as effective spotter and NARCer when LRMs were at 175 speed. Now that PGI had nerfed LRM speed and people abandoned LRMs again, that particular Lights' role is gone as well.

Blame those who couldn't handle LRMs.

[Adiuvo]

YueFei, on 06 April 2014 - 06:18 PM, said:

I'm not sure if top Light mech pilots going up against the top marksmen in this game feel confident in being able to dodge long-range PPC+AC fire? If they are confident in doing this now, then it's fine.

1 on 1 I can close on anyone and, thanks to the JJ nerfs and PPC under-90m-no-damage thing can fight pretty much anyone as well.

Problem comes when the assault mechs are grouped, and since they always should be grouped you can see the conundrum.

That's where your bigs come in though. A light pilot shouldn't have any problem surviving the early stage of the fight even against top snipers.

[topgun505]

Unless you plan on making the maps about 10x the size of our current largest maps I don't see much room for new roles for lights. Scouting is near non-existent except on a few maps. It just isn't needed.

Foxfire, on 06 April 2014 - 05:23 PM, said:

This last server migration has done a lot to improve hit detection in this game.. and I am starting to see more and more of something that I've warned against months ago.. that, as hit detection improves, the survivability of light significantly decreases due to the instant application of damage on certain weapon types and pinpoint accuracy.

So... as you improve hit detection while leaving in FLD weapons, what are you going to do to give light mechs a legitimate role on the battlefield that isn't direct combat?

[Dock Steward]

I don't know if it's just a 12 man thing, but our scouts are extremely important to our success. In fact, many of our losses can be traced back to losing a light mech early in the game.

Side note: one of our scouts got HUGE rewards in a game where he didn't even do any damage. TAG ftw.

[ICEFANG13]

YueFei, on 06 April 2014 - 06:18 PM, said:

Light mechs need to be able to safely scout enemies from a distance to do their job. It's not a gameplay balance issue if a Light mech can get splattered in 2 salvos up-close. But if you can't safely spot from long-range, that's a problem, because that impinges directly on role warfare.

I'm not sure if top Light mech pilots going up against the top marksmen in this game feel confident in being able to dodge long-range PPC+AC fire? If they are confident in doing this now, then it's fine.

If not, maybe they should slow down PPC and AC projectile speeds a little bit, little by little, until that's achieved.

Of course, that's not PGI's style when it comes to balancing. =P

Its not difficult, but you have to move if you see anything move, else risk dying. It can happen, but not if you play smartly. Scouting does have a role, but it does diminish greatly as the fight starts whatsoever. As said before, lights can kill any other mech in a 1v1 but the problem really starts in teamfights. When 'you' (anyone, not you) are better and co-ordinated with your team, it makes it easier to deal the damage without being focused, but because lights are easiest the kill, the other team may go for it as well. Its too complicated to always have an answer for, but in my opinion, lights are not in a bad spot, although game balance is lacking overall, lights are not terrible, just you have to know whats happening. Its hardest to play a light at a moderate skill level, where the blobs are very king and there is no extreme team co-ordination.

El Bandito, on 06 April 2014 - 06:22 PM, said:

Lights were used as effective spotter and NARCer when LRMs were at 175 speed. Now that PGI had nerfed LRM speed and people abandoned LRMs again, that particular Lights' role is gone as well.

Blame those who couldn't handle LRMs.

The power of light mechs will always be closely tied to the power of all missiles.

[kuangmk11]

Foxfire, on 06 April 2014 - 05:23 PM, said:

As You Improve Hit Detection In This Game..

I don't think there is any danger of that. If hit detection was ever truly fixed they would be at square one balance wise. It would destroy the game completely. They would need to add in an artificial "cone of fire" or reduce damage across the board. Why make more work for themselves?

[Roland]

The best light pilots tended to be people who had low ping, and thus didn't really have much of a lag shield... Because having less lag also tended to make it easier for the light pilot to hit OTHER things while zipping all over the place.

Believe it or not, there actually are light pilots who can survive based purely on their own maneuverability and skill, and don't need lag to keep them alive.

Generally, I don't really have much trouble hitting light mechs if they are running decent pings.. unless they're actually a good light pilot.

[Joseph Mallan]

Foxfire, on 06 April 2014 - 05:23 PM, said:

This last server migration has done a lot to improve hit detection in this game.. and I am starting to see more and more of something that I've warned against months ago.. that, as hit detection improves, the survivability of light significantly decreases due to the instant application of damage on certain weapon types and pinpoint accuracy.

So... as you improve hit detection while leaving in FLD weapons, what are you going to do to give light mechs a legitimate role on the battlefield that isn't direct combat?

During the Centurion weekend our 4man Scout spotted, and helped us wrack up great numbers with LRMs all while out scoring 3 Missile boats dealing 300+ damage! Heck I dropped 700 damage one match and was still beat by 14 point by a Firestarter! I was using the Champion Stalker!

Lights do fine... when a good pilot is in one.

[Bishop Steiner]

One thing is required for Lights to have "viable" in game roles.

In-game VOIP. In 12 man, Lights already do much more than just wolfpack. In many decent PUG queue's the same is true. Heck, one should have noted the QQ from the last few patches.....most of that "LRMageddon" most players whined about (not even close to the real LRMageddon, btw) was made possible by Lights acting as Spotters, Planting NARCS, etc.

On Conquest, most good teams ant their Lights flipping switches, etc.

Proper communication for better coordination would extend that. Of course, you would still have to get the herd of cats to remotely try to work together, which is a different issue.

So perhaps upping rewards for non combat accomplishments might help, because 90% of the issues now aren't that the roles are not there, it's that people worry about epeen first, the team second. Which is why Lights are more interested in kill stealing than anything else.

Get hit detection popping them a little more reliably, and I think the EZMode joy certain Lights enjoy atm will fade, and people will either switch to different classes, or decide that flaunting HSR and hit regs flaws to ankle hump isn't so easy when shots register consistently, so maybe less in your face roles make more sense.

[Bobzilla]

Better hit detection may seem like a nerf, but really it's just correcting a problem. Lights poping out of cover for a second taking heavy damage, welcome to the world of every other weight class.

[Foxfire]

Joseph Mallan, on 07 April 2014 - 03:43 AM, said:

During the Centurion weekend our 4man Scout spotted, and helped us wrack up great numbers with LRMs all while out scoring 3 Missile boats dealing 300+ damage! Heck I dropped 700 damage one match and was still beat by 14 point by a Firestarter! I was using the Champion Stalker!

Lights do fine... when a good pilot is in one.

I'm talking about the future. Light mechs right now still have a role. However, as hit detection continues to improve, they will be pushed more towards indirect combat roles. The disadvantages that they will have, especially once this becomes the 'norm' for light mechs, is how easy it is to spot(and thus be counter-spotted) and the overall small sizes of maps .

You will limit the usefulness of all non-ECM mechs in the spotting game if you don't change how targeting works and force lights into such roles.

As for 12v12, that is really a different dynamic that makes up a small portion of the games played. The majority of gameplay is either PUG or small group based, sadly, and thus doesn't enjoy proper VOIP coverage that makes lights better in organized play.

Overall, I just want PGI to deliver on role warfare so that this game is more than just a slugfest.

Edited by Foxfire, 07 April 2014 - 07:41 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

have you read the Description of our Light Mechs in this game. The intended role they are meant to fill?

the Jenner was meant to be a fast guerrilla fighter

Commando. Created for the Lyran Commonwealth Armed Forces and one of the first 'Mechs ever designed for reconnaissance,

The Spider was originally designed by Newhart Industries as a 'Mech to be used by SLDF commando forces.

The Raven is a light electronic warfare BattleMech which, when it first debuted following the end of the Third Succession War

The Firestarter was designed by Argile Technologies of Skye in 2550 to perform as an incendiary 'Mech

The Locust was built exclusively for reconnaissance.

As opposed to

The Panther is one of the BattleMechs that is most iconic of the Draconis Combine. The design was originally commissioned in 2739 at the behest of the Star League to provide fire support for other light, fast-moving 'Mech units,

This mix of long and short-range weapons allows the Valkyrie to soften up other 'Mechs from long range then move in for a kill. Also, when working as part of a scout lance, the Valkyrie can operate in a fire support role.

So of the MW:O Lights we have... Only one is designed to be more than a scout or support Vehicle.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 07 April 2014 - 07:52 AM.