58 replies to this topic

[Trauglodyte]

We know that the match maker can be, for lack of better words, problematic. We also know that Paul has gone on record as to say that getting PUGs to listen is a lot like herding cats. And, we all know that the lack of VOIP makes it hard for PUGs to know what is going on along with typed out chat being lack luster to getting them to work as a team - most PUGs out right ignore it cause they don't recognize other players are knowing more than they do (ego is bleh!).

So, why does PGI continue to make the pressing issues worse with the continued problem that is the spread out spawn points? We've had the random spread out locations for several months but it never ceases to amaze me how much of a hinderance it is to the game. Whether it is in Conquest, where each lance feels the need to press on to a node by themselves or an Assault/Skirmish game on a large map where that one lance, and I have NO idea why this happens, is so far away from the other two that it is almost impossible for them to catch up with the main body of the group. In many cases, this almost suggests that these groups go off on their own doing their thing at the expense of the team. And losing an entire lance within the first few minutes of the game is extremely detrimental to the fun of the other players let alone the point of the game.

I can accept that most PUGs don't have the guts to commit to a movement (ie, they don't like pushing) because there is no telling if anyone is going to come with you - I've died because of that too many times to count. I can even accept, to a point, the "don't hurt me bro" two step that many of them adopt when ever fire is incoming. I refuse their inabilities to know how to properly space themselves, the friendly fire, the clumping in choke points, etc - that is just common sense but that is also something that lacks completely on the interwebs. The point, we cannot teach the masses what they should and should not do because, while we are probably better, who are "we" to tell them anything (again, ego!)? But, if that is the case, why are we set up to fail because we cannot carrol those that cannot/will not be contained?

I love the idea of instant action but not if it is bad for the game. PGI needs to understand this.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

PGI is to blame why Pugs are setup to fail miserably...


-No in game Voice for them
-MM Bias to throw them in against long term veterans, regularly
-Next to ZERO social features to help them organize
-Next to ZERO in game features to organize (taking command and marking a random location on the map doesn't count)
-Besides a very rudimentary movement tutorial, ZERO game assets to teach them anything / cut their teeth
-Convoluted game mechanics with zero explanation like Ghost Heat™ and ECM functions (BAP isn't even listed to counter it)
-Etc.

[Darian DelFord]

A simple 5 mission PvE campaign would help alot of this

[Ultimax]

All great questions, and something that absolutely needs to be addressed.


Over the weekend, I was in several matches where the slower parts of my lance hadn't even made it from my spawn point to the main body of the team and half the team had already collapsed.


In other matches, I had the same thing happen except my team was the one doing the killing.


Winning our losing in a quick 3 min blowout due to poor team comp/spawn points/zero communication really is not good for anyone, and is not really sustainable imo.

[Trauglodyte]

mwhighlander, on 07 April 2014 - 09:23 AM, said:

PGI is to blame why Pugs are setup to fail miserably...


-No in game Voice for them
-MM Bias to throw them in against long term veterans, regularly
-Next to ZERO social features to help them organize
-Next to ZERO in game features to organize (taking command and marking a random location on the map doesn't count)
-Besides a very rudimentary movement tutorial, ZERO game assets to teach them anything / cut their teeth
-Convoluted game mechanics with zero explanation like Ghost Heat™ and ECM functions (BAP isn't even listed to counter it)
-Etc.

You're absolutely correct on all of that. It is why I'm so baffled over the spawn points that are so spread out. MWO has a massive learning curve so why make the situation worse? I mean, if Paul even says that it is a problem getting PUGs to listen and MWO has a tip indicating that team work and VOIP are essential to winning, adding in game mechanics that suggest going against that is pure insanity.

Hell, Forrest Colony is currently the only map that doesn't have spread out spawn points and that is only because it is retardedly small.

Edited by Trauglodyte, 07 April 2014 - 09:43 AM.

[Daekar]

Make the maps big enough that lances have to fight lances rather than gamble on which way the enemy deathball went, and it will be better - people won't die as fast and slow mechs will have a harder time being in the right place to apply their firepower.

Putting the spawn points close together is just setting it up so the deathball forms earlier.

[Bobzilla]

I've noticed people starting to catch on to the strategy on certain maps where you can catch a lance by it's lonesome with overwhelming odds.

[Nick Makiaveli]

A couple of points...

Chat doesn't work, but VOIP would suddenly cause PUGs to listen?

Lack of tutorials mean they have no clue, but we all know the vast majority wouldn't read/watch them, so umm yea.

PUGs are chickenshit, and most are KDR whores, so spawn points are to blame?

[AEgg]

Nick Makiaveli, on 07 April 2014 - 12:34 PM, said:

A couple of points...

Chat doesn't work, but VOIP would suddenly cause PUGs to listen?

Lack of tutorials mean they have no clue, but we all know the vast majority wouldn't read/watch them, so umm yea.

PUGs are chickenshit, and most are KDR whores, so spawn points are to blame?

Maybe some won't listen. But they CAN speak. You can't type and move at the same time, hence why it's borderline suicidal to report enemy positions as soon as you see them.

Similarly, you can't tell anyone anything while in combat unless you want to walk in a straight line and not shoot for a moment, which is usually MUCH worse for you than not telling your teammates that that ECM atlas you're close enough to target has a red right torso.

I wouldn't really blame spawn points for anything, though. The issue is lack of VOIP.

[Nick Makiaveli]

AEgg, on 07 April 2014 - 02:39 PM, said:

Maybe some won't listen. But they CAN speak. You can't type and move at the same time, hence why it's borderline suicidal to report enemy positions as soon as you see them.

Similarly, you can't tell anyone anything while in combat unless you want to walk in a straight line and not shoot for a moment, which is usually MUCH worse for you than not telling your teammates that that ECM atlas you're close enough to target has a red right torso.

I wouldn't really blame spawn points for anything, though. The issue is lack of VOIP.

I was being a bit sarcastic due to the tone I detected in the OP.

But since you are being reasonable etc, I see what you are saying, and yes VOIP is far superior to typing. However, PUGs are, as a rule, stupid.

Too many people trying to talk at once. Trolls giving silly or contradictory orders. Telling your momma jokes or lying about not being virgins. See my point?

If not I can go on. Either you only allow one person to talk, or else some will play music and jabber constantly so you can't understand what is being said. OR it will be a race to get the mic (just like with CC) and then if that person is a douche, no one else will get to talk.

Personally I will be on the DHB server and if I drop solo, and am not on TS, then I will turn off or mute the in-game VOIP unless I see someone I know from another unit etc.

[Rebas Kradd]

I'm in the camp that says 12 people on VOIP is a setup for disaster of a different kind. Confusing and conflicting orders, arguments, name-calling and trolling, all kinds of childish behavior. It happened in Counterstrike, and the result was people sticking to their "home" servers in order to play in the environment they wanted. They don't have that option here. So they'll just...turn it off.

And a lot of people just won't listen. What OP is describing is true to every game. People are morons, communication or no.

Edited by Rebas Kradd, 07 April 2014 - 02:54 PM.

[AEgg]

Rebas Kradd, on 07 April 2014 - 02:54 PM, said:

I'm in the camp that says 12 people on VOIP is a setup for disaster of a different kind. Confusing and conflicting orders, arguments, name-calling and trolling, all kinds of childish behavior. It happened in Counterstrike, and the result was people sticking to their "home" servers in order to play in the environment they wanted. They don't have that option here. So they'll just...turn it off.

And a lot of people just won't listen. What OP is describing is true to every game. People are morons, communication or no.

It really depends on the playerbase. VOIP can work, but traditionally that's been the case mostly in games where there are admins (and thus it's simple to permamute anyone problematic). Sometimes public VOIP is a disaster, sometimes hardly anyone uses it. It really depends on the game. (To a lesser extent consoles are worse for this, since they ship with a mic and thus more people can use one).

Either way, I'd rather have ingame VOIP that some people mute (or even opt-in VOIP) than not even have the option of communication with randoms, which is pretty much what we have now. It's simply not possible to set up a third party app with randoms you just happen to get matched with. That has to be part of the game or it can't be done.

Edited by AEgg, 07 April 2014 - 03:08 PM.

[warner2]

It's pretty shocking how under-developed the game still is, and they've actually made it worse with changes like the spread out spawn points. Totally agree. It's assault mode mainly that has the issue. They should pull Caustic, Tourmaline, Alpine and Terra Therma closer together and closer to base. The rest are OK.

[Corwin Vickers]

You can't tell me what to do! You're not my dad!

[Nutlink]

Rebas Kradd, on 07 April 2014 - 02:54 PM, said:

I'm in the camp that says 12 people on VOIP is a setup for disaster of a different kind. Confusing and conflicting orders, arguments, name-calling and trolling, all kinds of childish behavior. It happened in Counterstrike, and the result was people sticking to their "home" servers in order to play in the environment they wanted. They don't have that option here. So they'll just...turn it off.

I like how ArmA always had different VOIP options - local, squad, team, global, command, vehicle, etc. This could work here. The company leader can speak could have the option to speak to everyone, his lance, or just lance leaders. Lance leaders could have the option to speak to the company leader and their lance. Regular players would only be able to speak within their lance. You can cut out a lot of asshatery that way, plus there's always the mute option if you run into someone in your lance who pulls this crap. Once people figure out that the company leader can speak to everyone, you'd have more people taking that spot JUST to avoid having a jackass take it.

At least, that COULD have worked early on. Nowadays, a lot of players are set in their way so you probably won't ever see pugs working together, no matter what you do.

[TehSBGX]

Yeah I've noticed ever since spread out spawn points, Pugging is just plain worse. It's more erratic and people are more likely to run off from a group and get killed. Without voip grouping up into a deathball is pretty much the only viable tatcic for pugs.

Pug life is f*cking hell.

Edited by TehSBGX, 07 April 2014 - 06:31 PM.

[Aresye]

Funny how player-side servers and admins always seem to do a better job at running multiplayer games than companies.

I'd like to see more control given to the entire team overall. Not just VOIP.

I want to see a, "vote kick," feature that requires a majority (like 75%) vote. I betcha the KDR whoring crowd won't be so quick to find a hiding spot and shut down for 10min if they start seeing, "1 player has voted to kick you," "4 players have voted to kick you," "8 players have voted to kick you."

With the way matchmaking currently works, it also has a very small probability of being abused.

[Zaggeron]

I'm a player who's only got a couple of weeks in the game. As mentioned here and in other posts, I believe one of the biggest issues is the lack of in-game social features. Even something as simple as a recent player's list would make a big difference. As it stands there is no realistic way to make friends inside the game. Say that, against all odds, you and a couple of other randoms on your team spontaneously started employing team tactics. Next game,of course, they are nowhere to be found.

But what if you had a recent player's list and simply send out friend invites to some folks in the last game that you had a blast playing. Soon you might have a large list of friends. With friends you are more likely to form groups when you notice they are logged on. With in-game VOIP this would give every group the chance to perform better instead of having to arrange voice and friends outside the game.

For in-game VOIP, it should be simple to allow you to toggle between: hear only your group, hear any group, and hear all. With the ability to easily mute any player from the "tab" screen, I don't see in game voice as being problematic.

Of course, this would change many assumptions about groups. With people easily being able to form ad hoc groups of 2 -4 complete with in-game support for VOIP, there would suddenly be a lot more groups dropping -- groups of all skill levels. This, it seems would be very good for the game.

[Mavairo]

Three map decisions have been utterly tragic in this game.
1: was the addition of turrets. They only added them to keep people from capping.
....which is one of the two primary objectives in Assault. I'm sorry PGI but if your players are too effin stupid to DEFEND THE BASE they deserved to lose to cap. Period.

2: The spreading of spawn points. Especially since on several maps, some poor ******* lance is stuck straight down the teeth of 2 enemy lance firing lanes right out of the box.

3: the changing of the cap points in Conquest on Alpine, which has caused less than 1/2 of the map to even be used... in a TAKE AND HOLD game. Worse still 3 of the cap points are right in the Death Corridor. It's pitifully easy to defend ALL THREE cap points, without having to actually move in to push the enemy off, since it's right down BOTH sniper alleys.

[Dulahan]

Not going to lie. More than anything else. In Client VOIP is the thing I want most of all for this game, and wish PGI would make the number 1 priority.