177 replies to this topic

[Nicholas Carlyle]

mogs01gt, on 10 April 2014 - 09:18 AM, said:

I do agree that the maps are way too small!!

It's funny, when they released Alpine, we were all in awe of how big and rangey it was.

Till we realized, that the gameplay still ended up revolving around a small portion of the map.

Just releasing a bigger map isn't enough, it has to be accompanied by reasons to use other portions of the map.

Skirmish theoretically does this by not having objectives.

But we also need the opposite of skirmish, a true objective based mode. Conquest should've been, but it never quite reached that point.

Ultimatum X, on 10 April 2014 - 09:19 AM, said:

All good points, and I do think Mediums need more role space.

I just don't believe nerfing already slow Assault mechs to be even slower is the solution.

I'd prefer if they just scaled Mediums to be smaller, but PGI seems very reluctant to do that.

Then see how things shake out afterward.

[Joseph Mallan]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 10 April 2014 - 09:20 AM, said:

It's funny, when they released Alpine, we were all in awe of how big and rangey it was.

Till we realized, that the gameplay still ended up revolving around a small portion of the map.

Just releasing a bigger map isn't enough, it has to be accompanied by reasons to use other portions of the map.

Skirmish theoretically does this by not having objectives.

But we also need the opposite of skirmish, a true objective based mode. Conquest should've been, but it never quite reached that point.

But but but Brawling?

The purpose of Big maps is to let us wield long range weapons in their natural environment. Not to continue to cluster*uck!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 10 April 2014 - 09:23 AM.

[mogs01gt]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 10 April 2014 - 09:21 AM, said:

It's funny, when they released Alpine, we were all in awe of how big and rangey it was.
Till we realized, that the gameplay still ended up revolving around a small portion of the map.
Just releasing a bigger map isn't enough, it has to be accompanied by reasons to use other portions of the map.
Skirmish theoretically does this by not having objectives.
But we also need the opposite of skirmish, a true objective based mode. Conquest should've been, but it never quite reached that point.I'd prefer if they just scaled Mediums to be smaller, but PGI seems very reluctant to do that.
Then see how things shake out afterward.

The issue with Alpine is the placement of the cap points and the base. Totally different discussion though.

Though map balancing does play a huge part in Mech balance. Over head cover could make certain mechs useless in that scenario.

Joseph Mallan, on 10 April 2014 - 09:23 AM, said:

But but but Brawling?
The purpose of Big maps is to let us wield long range weapons in their natural environment. Not to continue to cluster*uck!

Big maps with no cover support long range weapons. Big maps that have cover, could increase the importance of flanking and brawling.

Edited by mogs01gt, 10 April 2014 - 09:26 AM.

[Ultimax]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 10 April 2014 - 09:21 AM, said:

I'd prefer if they just scaled Mediums to be smaller, but PGI seems very reluctant to do that.

Then see how things shake out afterward.

It's most likely a cost issue as it pertains to art assets.

In most games changing the stats of a few weapons is really spreadsheet balancing to an extent.

Art asset changes often take quite a bit more manhours (Read: $$$)

[Joseph Mallan]

mogs01gt, on 10 April 2014 - 09:24 AM, said:

Big maps with no cover support long range weapons. Big maps that have cover, could increase the importance of flanking and brawling.

Only if the map had lots of Terrain and cover, and lanes of approach, or a big city Map! In combat though, and you can ask my more experienced brothers in arms, Cover is not always readily available.

[mogs01gt]

Joseph Mallan, on 10 April 2014 - 09:30 AM, said:

Only if the map had lots of Terrain and cover, and lanes of approach, or a big city Map! In combat though, and you can ask my more experienced brothers in arms, Cover is not always readily available.

Correct, most maps we have do not allow for proper cover. This is why poptarting and LRM boating are popular strategies.

Edited by mogs01gt, 10 April 2014 - 10:43 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 10 April 2014 - 08:52 AM, said:

Well, you seemed to indicate a light mech can 1v1 an assault fine now. Which you are in favor of.

Now not to say that a medium can never beat an assault (I've done it), but lets be honest here. It would take a fairly decent skill discrepancy, or a loadout issue (IE a Medium Brawler vs. an LRM Stalker) for it to be doable.



So you want light mechs to be bigger?

Yup. They should be anyhow, as volumetrically, they are ridiculously undersized. And if we are going to make all Assault Mechs have the reflexes of a 3 Toed Sloth in Frozen Molasses, then the new Meta would instantly shift to Lights, because the Assaults (who already have a hard time with them) will be totally helpless against them.

We might need to tweak Heavies a tad on agility too, as high alpha is still a legit balance issue for lighter chassis. But If we want to maintain balance, re-sizing the Lights properly, would be essential.

Seriously, have you tried to fight a single Spider in a BNC-3E? If the SPD pilot is half way decent, you will never have him in your sights. That ain't balance. Heck, if the Spider anklehumps, the BNCs weapons literally can't hit it if it's dead in front of it.

And it would also significantly change the "snipe-Light" game.

[Ultimax]

I think map size is only part of it, the number of maps is also an issue.


Having the maps memorized makes for those skirmishes on Terra Therma where everyone seems ok to just meet up at the center and deathball each other until its over.

[DONTOR]

JJ capable assults didnt feel lumbering, since the changes they feel more like they should IMO.

[Wolfways]

mogs01gt, on 10 April 2014 - 09:32 AM, said:

Correct, most maps we have do not allow for proper cover. This is why poptarting and LRM boating are proper strategies.

I think Joseph was referring to RL cover. MWO maps are "arena's" that are basically nothing but cover (except Alpine).
Look at BF2 or MWLL, they are great maps imo.

[Joseph Mallan]

mogs01gt, on 10 April 2014 - 09:32 AM, said:

Correct, most maps we have do not allow for proper cover. This is why poptarting and LRM boating are proper strategies.

So a good and proper combat style fight for a combat game...

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Bishop Steiner, on 10 April 2014 - 09:37 AM, said:

Yup. They should be anyhow, as volumetrically, they are ridiculously undersized. And if we are going to make all Assault Mechs have the reflexes of a 3 Toed Sloth in Frozen Molasses, then the new Meta would instantly shift to Lights, because the Assaults (who already have a hard time with them) will be totally helpless against them.

We might need to tweak Heavies a tad on agility too, as high alpha is still a legit balance issue for lighter chassis. But If we want to maintain balance, re-sizing the Lights properly, would be essential.

Seriously, have you tried to fight a single Spider in a BNC-3E? If the SPD pilot is half way decent, you will never have him in your sights. That ain't balance. Heck, if the Spider anklehumps, the BNCs weapons literally can't hit it if it's dead in front of it.

And it would also significantly change the "snipe-Light" game.

I was just asking for clarification, wasn't really agreeing or disagreeing.

[Bishop Steiner]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 10 April 2014 - 08:52 AM, said:

Now not to say that a medium can never beat an assault (I've done it), but lets be honest here. It would take a fairly decent skill discrepancy, or a loadout issue (IE a Medium Brawler vs. an LRM Stalker) for it to be doable.

I find that only to be true with the VTR in general.

Problem is too many medium, jocks try to match the Fatties blow for blow as support units or poptarts. But almost no Assault can 1v1 me now in my Shadowhawk or Griffin. TheVTR was the only consistent, legit threat, and it is a lot less so now.

Probably the biggest thing I see is too many people overspecialization their Mediums, which are jacks of all trades for a reason, and thus get caught out in situations their cookie cutter builds can't handle. Over specializing, in general, should be the realm of Lights and Assault as their inherent limitations feed into minmaxxing. People actually run balanced medium builds, and not expect them to go into a toe to toe brawl with Assaults, or Harry off "hunting" Lights, people would find their Mediums a lot more effective.

That said, while I think there should be more of a gap (particularly in straight line speed, with a few oddball exceptions, like the Charger) between the chassis, I don't think Mediums are at a particular disadvantage as is. More often, IMO, people don't really get how to use a Medium. I know a lot of the players are Twitch Shooters, and all things are meant to be inherently balanced so that equal skill meets equal skill it pans out to a 50/50 split, but that is absolutely not how a "role" warfare game should be. PGI needs to decide, once and for all, does it want a FPS twitch game, in which case we need that perfect balancing, or a role warfare game, where we need imperfect balancing.

Nicholas Carlyle, on 10 April 2014 - 09:47 AM, said:

I was just asking for clarification, wasn't really agreeing or disagreeing.

Not a problem, just figured I'd make my "sales pitch" in the clarification. And hey, even if you did/do sdisagree, ain't no thing, we all grown ups here!

[Thorqemada]

Big Engines bring big Speed and Agility and Assaults can equip often very big engines, on top you get the biggest bonus from the skilltree for the biggest engines.

[Mavairo]

Wait, is Paul playing the same game as the rest of us?
ANY mech I have that moves at 60 or god help me worse, is a lumbering Pig.

[Rhent]

Pro Tip Paul:

Play a Banshee and then gets buggered by a Spider that matches your movement exactly and stays in your deadspot with 1 ML and 4MG. I've been on the end of that and when running a small light mech, I've done it to plenty of Banshee pilots.

Banshees can barely look down, have a lack of arm mounts (2 chassis have arm mounts, 1 of which is MC only and the other has only 1 Energy Arm mount), and has a rigid torso turn.

So Assaults aren't lumbering, REALLY PAUL, REALLY?

[kuangmk11]

100 tons that can move 50+ kph is not "slow and lumbering" and is not supposed to be. A giant bipedal robot would have to be extremely agile, fast and strong to move like that without falling over. Just get the idea out of your head, Paul. You can replace it with "lights don't feel fragile enough". If a nerf to Assaults is what you want for this game then make some decent sized maps (and then use more than a little corner of them).

[Mavairo]

kuangmk11, on 10 April 2014 - 10:05 AM, said:

100 tons that can move 50+ kph is not "slow and lumbering" and is not supposed to be. A giant bipedal robot would have to be extremely agile, fast and strong to move like that without falling over. Just get the idea out of your head, Paul. You can replace it with "lights don't feel fragile enough". If a nerf to Assaults is what you want for this game then make some decent sized maps (and then use more than a little corner of them).

Paul wants assault mechs to move like an animatronic Mecha Godzilla.
Which is more proof he just needs to be fired.

Edited by Mavairo, 10 April 2014 - 10:13 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mavairo, on 10 April 2014 - 10:13 AM, said:

Paul wants assault mechs to move like an animatronic Mecha Godzilla.
Which is more proof he just needs to be fired.

Now now. Be fair.
...
...
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Thats not the only reason.

I couldn't help it. That was to easy!

[Harathan]

Ultimatum X, on 10 April 2014 - 08:21 AM, said:

The Atlas weighs 100 tons.
The Victor weighs 80 tons.
The Orion weighs 75 tons.

Why should the Victor feel more like an Atlas than an Orion, based on what is a completely arbitrary name like "assault" that only serves to denote where one weight class begins and another weight class ends?

THIS.