31 replies to this topic

[The Buddha Assassinator]

So I have been playing for a while and I have been on the winning side and the losing side of complete stomps. Most people believe it is because of the LRM or PPC/AC meta, or just poor matchmaking and tonnage imbalance. But I think it's more complex than that. There is a great deal of psychology of players as well as tactical choices we make that lead one side to a complete rout. I have been thinking about these complete stomps, coming up with some ideas and I hope I can Introduce some helpful tips for new players or maybe just interesting food for thought.

It is my belief that complete stomps can occur even with similarly skilled and similarly tonnaged PUG matches. I will list the steps that I believe leads to a rout. BTW this applies mostly to Assault and Skirmish games.

Step 1. The Disadvantaged Team

When the game first starts everyone feels even, they might not feel ascertain for victory but they feel they got a shot at it. Initially there will be small skirmishes, or peek-a-boo battles because everyone feels fresh. In these short battles there might be a lone straggler caught off guard, a unlucky light who was legged in 1 volley, a guy that emerged from cover and quickly focused down. Regardless I sense that when the gap in living mechs widens to 3 or higher, there is a change in PUG confidence. PUG Players have little idea how well their teammates are doing outside of their lance, most don't even check the health of their lancemates. Once thing they can see is who many are dead. Many players get scared when they are down by 3 or more. It feels like the battle is already lost and they are going against a superior force. On the opposite team however feels supremely confident and ready to charge out and claim the kills.

Step 2. Terrain

In general most deathball teams have an idea where the enemy is because they clump together. Two teams are often fighting with a big piece of terrain in cover in front of them. Often there are not a great deal of cover when you step back away from this. Example being The plateau on Alpine, the Caldera on Caustic, the ridge on Frozen City, the ship in Forest colony...etc. When the confidence levels change, one team is ready to run and the other team is ready to charge, but the team running often don't have much cover to utilize.

Step 3. Differential in speed and attitude

Medium mech and fast heavies can turn tail and run for cover, but many Assaults are unwilling to turn their soft backs to the enemy for that long(because they are slow). Most of the time these assaults are backing up, but since top speed for going back is slower, even mech of the same speed will catch up to them. Also mechs that turned tail and ran are not shooting at the enemy, this leads to less firepower from the disadvantaged team. So when the winning team crest over the cover, they are faced with some runners and some fighters.

Step 3. Focus fire and the lack there of

Foes who are shooting back are usually a high priority target just by instinct. So when a flood
of mechs giving chase sees runners and fighters, since there are fewer fighters they are more likely to be focused down than the runners. However, on the opposite side, the few mechs fighting are shooting back without coordination, targeting whoever is most convenient. So there is a lack of focus fire. Many player are overwhelmed with the screen shake and smoke they can't target well and begin to panic. So quickly the gap widens.

Step 4. Mech Rotation

Many damaged mechs with critical injuries move back and let their more healthy teammates take the front while they move in after for support fire. Locking a mech and determining his weak points takes time. So most of the time the first mech that moved into range is one that people lock on to. Even if there is a mech that joins the fight later with red CT, they won't change targets unless that mech is deemed a more dangerous threat. The team charging in has this option, but a retreating team does not.

Lessons.

How can knowing this help you to prevent complete Stomps?

Position is everything, it is important for players not to panic and run. As the losing team, time Arty strikes at a charging team to break their confidence and formation. Focus down high priority targets. Lead them into a narrow alley where they can't not take advantage of superior firepower like the Bridge on Terra Therma. Don't split your forces and maintain the confidence that while you might be down in numbers, a lot of the enemies are cored themselves. Don't leave you slower teammates behind, stay and make them pay.

You might still lose, but it won't be a stomp.

[Voivode]

All good knowledge and all true.

[AlmightyAeng]

Yeah. Basic tactics for prospering, regardless of weapons systems.

1). Thug the enemy. Show up with MORE friends where he has LESS.
2). Engage him on two fronts to push them into a tight ball.
3). Drop airstrikes and artillery on the ball that's afraid to move.
4). Identify lone pilots and send 2-3 fast mechs after it, deal with it, and rejoin the group.
5.) Target ECM mechs FIRST. Being hidden is a big advantage. TAKE IT AWAY.
6.) Don't chase the squirrel. Letting a single light mech pull you into a huge line DOOMS you. Send 1 or 2 competent mechs to deal with it and then ignore it.
7). When you're damaged, get out of the front. You'll do more good with the weapons you have left if you're ALIVE supporting from the rear or side.
7a). If you ARE removing yourself to the rear, do it by bailing out TO THE SIDE. Please don't back straight up. It makes you slow, an easy CT target, and runs you into your teammates that want to be in front shooting. Don't be a detriment.
8.) Don't be afraid to take damage IF you're giving out VALUABLE damage. Sure, that AC2 is destroying your right arm from the side...but the Victor's center torso in front of you is glowing a beautiful cherry red.
9). Don't pursue JUST for the sake of the kill. If the cherry red torso gets away into a group of his buddies, don't follow him...wait for YOUR buddies, and then keep an eye out for him. Or your teammate might hit him instead. Don't sacrifice your mech for the sake of an easy kill...stay alive and hurt more people.
10). There's no repair in this game. This is chess. A war of attrition. You want to HURT the other team as much as possible, and if you're gonna die, MAKE IT COUNT.

Edited by Ghost Badger, 10 April 2014 - 12:26 PM.

[SethAbercromby]

Here's a few of mine.

- Stick with the team:
It doesn't matter whether you are a full brawler, a scout, or a LRM90 boat, stay within reasonable range of your teammates so everyone can cover each others backs. AMS is also always a nice contribution to the team


- Be wary of your role:
Brawlers:
You will need to get up close so don't forget to communicate with your team when you decide to do a decisive push.

Scout:
Your role is to spot and mark targets but make sure your team is in range and capable of firing at your targets. Alternatively you can try to cause some minor havoc in the enemy formations and get some of their 'Mechs to attempt to chase you, so you can lead them into a position where your team can fire on them (or distract them from firing at your team). Communicate any important information to your team immediately. "7 @ G7, ECM (Atlas/Jenner/etc.)" is much more information than one or two short locks on 'Mechs within an ECM bubble.

LRM boat:
A LRM Boat supports its team from the sideline, but don't just camp in a corner or you will easily be picked off by fast boat killers. Stick to the team, move with the formation and chose the most optimal angle to fire your LRMs to minimize the cover the enemy can use to avoid your missiles. If possible, communicate with your team.

A more balanced build can take one of three roles:
All-Range support:
These 'Mechs aren't dedicated to a certain range and can instead seamlessly transition from one range into another. These 'Mechs can stay behind the front and provide long to mid-range coverage or take the lead when necessary and fight enemy 'Mechs at close range. These 'Mechs often come with decent armor and weaponry, but often sacrifice engine power. They rely on both situational awareness of the pilot and communication with the team to succeed.

Short range support:
Fast 'Mechs that aren't intended for scouting purposes exclusively for one reason or another. These often use vulture hit and run tactics, short range harassment, or similar tactics. These are more often seen closer to the larger 'Mechs and use their speed to quickly navigate through the battlefield to cause as much havoc as possible. A pilot that can quickly analyze the battle and detect the weakest links will be able to quickly eliminate threats by either crippling enemy 'Mechs or killing them outright. Communication saves lives.

Jack of all Trades:
These 'Mechs can do anything to a certain extend. These are often Medium 'Mechs with a speed of at least 80km/h that use the mobility of the Mediums to quickly change their location on the battlefield to fill the role that is in biggest need. If no one can scout, these will take the burden, lay down suppressive fire and dive out before it gets too hot. Being able to fill any role at any time, these 'Mechs are very unpredictable for the enemy team and a good pilot will always be on the move, filling various tasks as needed. Communication and map awareness are keys to success.

- Communication:
Communicate, communicate and them communicate some more. Let your team know what you know and share your strategic input. The more a team knows, the more likely it is to succeed.

[Koniving]

Ghost Badger, on 10 April 2014 - 11:41 AM, said:

Yeah. Basic tactics for prospering, regardless of weapons systems.

There's a show on TV called Burn Notice. During it, his voice narrates how to deal with specific situations as the show has him prepare for that situation.

Example: "When a building you intend to breach is full of armed men, the first sound they hear will be the direction they all look. Create a false entry, and then breach the other side."
"Every country's special forces unit emphasizes specific skills. (Some examples I can't recall), the Chinese are trained to be proficient with either hand, and Russian Spetznaz simultaneously breach all entry points. It is extremely effective and allows for no escape, however it makes it very easy to get trapped if your target has already left the building and is working to seal you in."

If you haven't, you totally should.

And this from a Colonel I've had the pleasure of serving with for two years:
"When ambushed in an L-formation, the enemy forces are trying to drive you into a favorable direction; usually toward deadly traps. On the smallest side of the formation, the meanest looking thing there is always the weak point because the enemy relies on the psychological impact of its presence."
The meanest looking thing in his example (in Vietnam) is a gun emplacement. The side flankers were troops. 'Back' kept you in the line of fire, and the obvious trenches for escape were laden with bamboo spikes covered in unmentionable stuff so that if the spikes themselves didn't kill you the infections from the 'stuff' would. The only course to assure the unit's survival and escape from the situation is to rush the gun emplacement which can then in turn be used against the enemy.

Escape is usually possible, but you're likely leaving your comrades to die if you do. Like in the Colonel's situation, the meanest thing never has anything behind it in that kind of ambush. However, there is always another way out. Look for the one that's weakest if possible, otherwise rush past the Atlas (Stalker, what have you) and RUN! If possible, shoot behind you as you do.

Mechs good at shooting behind them include but not limited to... Hunchbacks, Centurion CN9-D (only), Kintaros, Griffins, Locusts, (Jenners to an extent).

[Modo44]

Koniving, on 10 April 2014 - 12:46 PM, said:

Mechs good at shooting behind them include but not limited to... Hunchbacks, Centurion CN9-D (only), Kintaros, Griffins, Locusts, (Jenners to an extent).

I would add anything jumping with more than one jump jet. You can typically turn to fire (at the very least with arm weapons, sometimes also torso stuff), and turn back to your intended vector before a full burn is over.

[PhoenixFire55]

You bring fair points as to why a clean sweep can happen, but ...

IMO, 12-0 can not happen when two equally skilled teams fight.

Even if you are 8 down, 4 mechs focusing fire on 1 will kill that one in a matter of seconds. Tonnage difference and/or meta doesn't matter. Reason for stomps are always bad tactical choices, and bad tactical choices (while enemy makes good tactical choices) mean only one thing - lack of skill. Inability to focus fire, 'rotate' mechs up front is lack of skill. Or when a person refuses to communicate with teammates and/or help them, this is also lack of skill.

It is very convinient to blame tonnage difference and the mythical overpowered meta for your losses, but reason for losses is always same ... its your own teams fault. Sure you can say, 'but we had 8 lights vs their 8 assautls', but I'll tell you that you can see your team composition at the beginning of the game and make a proper plan for the match. 'Staying together and focusing fire' doesn't exactly work really well when your 8 lights engage a group of 8 assaults all at the same time. 'But their jumpsnipers meta'ed us all QQ' ... only because you let them. You got brawler builds, go brawl ... sure you'll have some of them damaged even before you get in range but when you do, you'll most likely win.

However, I fully agree with the anti-stomp tips you suggest. There is a lot of basic MWO wisdom in them.

[Magna Canus]

This is a great post, also the ones from Ghost Badger and Seth. This smacks of Sun-Tzu.

Keeping team mates alive, and thus their weapons in play is vitally important. It is very had to get some of these tactics to work when randoms meet randoms, few are willing to go out on a limb for those they don't know.

I think one thing that should be added is the organized/covered retreat, something I also do when dropping solo (lead by example).

Example; we are hit on multiple sides and need to reposition/regroup. I am near a "fatty" that is trying to withdraw. I adjust my rear view mirror (mentally, it's actually just the mini-map) and walk backwards either parallel to or directly behind my fatty to provide suppressive fire to dissuade pursuers. usually in return I get to hide behind the thankful fatty when I start to go cherry.

[IraqiWalker]

Hekatonkheire, on 10 April 2014 - 11:35 AM, said:

Awesome analysis

That's pretty much how things go in 90% of all stomps. After playing this game for SOOOOOO long now, I can say that my experience confirms this.

Another factor that impacts the flow of the match is when one lance decides to separate from the main group for a flanking maneuver or another tactic, and they don't inform their teammates.

When that happens one of three scenarios will occur:

1- They get spotted and trade some shots back and forth with enemy skirmishers, this can end in one of three ways itself: A-they overwhelm the skirmishers and manage to push and flank.
B-They are spooked by the return fire and that they are spotted and so retreat and reinforce their team.
C- They are immediately surrounded and destroyed, leaving their team down 4 mechs.

2-Regardless of the result of (1) they get backup from their team and manage to drastically impact the battle field by either destroying more enemy mechs or by being annihilated.

3- Regardless of the result of (1) they get no backup get overwhelmed by a massive enemy flank and don't report that to their team and the game will usually end in a massive loss.

Most players in a group trying to do a flank think that this will allow their team to hold position while they get into the secondary position to pincer the enemy team. However, the more likely result is that their team will fragment and will move instead of hold. In either case, if a group decides to go for a separate maneuver than the rest of their team, what should happen is that their team needs to go on high alert and be prepared to bail them out. In addition, the separate group needs to always maintain communication with the main formation, especially if they encounter ANY enemies.

[MW222]

IraqiWalker, on 11 April 2014 - 07:30 PM, said:

That's pretty much how things go in 90% of all stomps. After playing this game for SOOOOOO long now, I can say that my experience confirms this.

Another factor that impacts the flow of the match is when one lance decides to separate from the main group for a flanking maneuver or another tactic, and they don't inform their teammates.

When that happens one of three scenarios will occur:

1- They get spotted and trade some shots back and forth with enemy skirmishers, this can end in one of three ways itself: A-they overwhelm the skirmishers and manage to push and flank.
B-They are spooked by the return fire and that they are spotted and so retreat and reinforce their team.
C- They are immediately surrounded and destroyed, leaving their team down 4 mechs.

2-Regardless of the result of (1) they get backup from their team and manage to drastically impact the battle field by either destroying more enemy mechs or by being annihilated.

3- Regardless of the result of (1) they get no backup get overwhelmed by a massive enemy flank and don't report that to their team and the game will usually end in a massive loss.

Most players in a group trying to do a flank think that this will allow their team to hold position while they get into the secondary position to pincer the enemy team. However, the more likely result is that their team will fragment and will move instead of hold. In either case, if a group decides to go for a separate maneuver than the rest of their team, what should happen is that their team needs to go on high alert and be prepared to bail them out. In addition, the separate group needs to always maintain communication with the main formation, especially if they encounter ANY enemies.

Lots of good info. However the problem I have is that if tier 5 is the lowest of the low then all games should be close but they are not. I have seen games that had no kills and showed no, I repeat NO Assists for an entire team. Glitch or the matchmake error?

[dragnier1]

@ mw222 - You can only get assists from kills. That means a 12-0 stomp equals 0 assists as well, since there were no kills.

Quote

Step 3. Focus fire and the lack there of

I came across this a few times : "KS"

Somehow some players (newer ones probably) bring their ideas from other games (you know which ones) to MWO and try to make solo kills.

There's also player greed in question, when they try to go for the kill and get pounded by several of the opposition.

Edited by dragnier1, 24 October 2015 - 09:44 PM.

[JigglyMoobs]

I'd also add that you should pay at least as much attention to where your teammates are as where your enemies are. 90% of the time when I see team scattered around the map, we are going to lose.

[Sylonce]

Psychology plays a huge role, and I sometimes feel as though team outcome, especially in a pug, is largely determined by which side is the most confident.

If you are a pug like me, I find that a lot of times, just having a little bit of deliberate and confident communication can go a long way in avoiding being utterly stomped. Don't be afraid to speak up or nudge the team in a certain direction if you feel that the team's position is set for failure. In a pug match, a lot of your team mates probably don't know you or anyone, so it is a bit like the blind leading the blind.

Just the other day, I lost a conquest match because an enemy light went to capture our base. Practically the whole of the team all turned around to try to take a bite at that mech, while those of us who were furthest out were litterally shot to pieces from behind by the enemy's main force. Had someone said anything, I think such tragedy could have been avoided

Edited by Sylonce, 26 October 2015 - 07:36 AM.

[Yozzman]

Get moarrr beer = less psycho stuff

[Voras]

All valid points here...

My observations:

1) PUGs tend to neglect communication
2) PUGs tend to either deathball or scatter completely
3) PUGs seldom focus fire
4) Collect resources missions turn PUGs into brainless chickens. Assaults try to cap the collector on the far side of the map, everyone runs around trying to cap and not to fight, or, even funnier, the team does not cap at all an loses by points.

Typically, the team breaking one or more of these points wins (high).

[Morggo]

With my confidence way up as I begin to get a bit better at the basics... I wanted to ask you experience pilots a question regarding Communication. I see it mentioned all over the forums, this thread included. And in my games this weekend some matches are utterly stone silent while others have a decent bit of radio chatter.

I will say, the games I really enjoy are the ones where there is chatter, and often a clearly "command" type person that jumps in and starts directing traffic so-to-speak. As a new player, I really appreciate getting the verbal info during a match.... "missle boat in Delta 5.... don't chase the light in epsion 4, he's a distraction, etc etc"

So my question... when can/should I finally plug in my headset and flip on my comms and join in the chatter? I already find I am often talking to the team, making observations, calling shots (which the wife finds pretty humorous given I'm not mic'd

I don't want to be a distraction to our lance/team commanders.. but I'm personally a vocal combat participant in many games....

[JigglyMoobs]

Morggo, on 26 October 2015 - 10:01 AM, said:

So my question... when can/should I finally plug in my headset and flip on my comms and join in the chatter? I already find I am often talking to the team, making observations, calling shots (which the wife finds pretty humorous given I'm not mic'd

I don't want to be a distraction to our lance/team commanders.. but I'm personally a vocal combat participant in many games....

I think you are ready to go man! Remember, comms is also a skill that you need to practice to get better at. I still find that at times I'm giving incorrect info or bad directions to team, but overall I think comm chatter helps even with the occasional confusion.

I'd start by just reporting information to the team. For example, giving positions and size of enemy forces, vulnerabilities on enemy mechs, letting team know that you are in trouble.

As you get more comfortable, you can start asking team to do things. Just remember that this isn't an organized match. Don't be offended if people on your team don't listen to your suggestion, or someone else has a different idea. In truth, any number of different things can work and your teammate might be seeing something that you haven't. So, if there is a disagreement, just be polite and decide what to do based on the situation.

I've been playing some nice games in solo queue where team used comms to good effect. Here was one example:

[Josef Koba]

There's some fantastic stuff in this thread. Having been on the receiving and delivering end of many 12-0 or 12-1 routes (far more on the receiving end), I appreciate any effort to identify it's causes. Essentially, in my view, it's inertia; momentum. In PUG land, the team that scores the first few kills is generally likely to succeed in the long haul, whether that ends in a 12-1 route or not. Losing three mechs without scoring a kill makes a team perhaps overly cautious. Often it paralyzes them with fear. No one dares peek out for fear of being focus fired. Then they all blob up as if waiting for the slaughter. One or two brave (or dumb) pilots might venture out but, without the support of their teammates, they too die relatively quick deaths. It's all about morale. It's psychological.

Granted, I've seen teams who are able to maintain their cool and overcome even a five mech difference, but that's pretty rare. Of course, those efforts are usually a slog, or what I'd consider a good match. I prefer losing 12-11 rather than winning 12-1. That's just me though.

Some things I'd like to see emphasized in PUG land.

1.) If you completely disarm an enemy mech, suck it up and move on to the next guy. I know that it's hard; people get target fixation and they pay no attention to anything (if they even lock the target to begin with), and they WANT/NEED/GOTTA HAVE that kill. But it's helpful to the team, when you rip the arms and torsos off that Stalker and he's just running around like a blind man, and it's in your interests to take out that King Crab that's shooting you with four hundred UACs.

2.) More comms. I'm guilty of this as well. I drop with my lance mate (or two), and we communicate over C3. One lance mate is tasked with monitoring group comms and spreading that info to our lance. This is because we're Marines and use colorful language, and we also use our MWO time to socialize (I know, I know). But even a quick message in the text box is beneficial. I'd say that 9/10 times no one ever even responds to my text queries, whereas I always acknowledge information passed via text even if it's just a "Roger, en route."

3.) Situational Awareness. As Voras says, PUGs deathball or scatter. A lot of the time they scatter; half the team isn't even visible on the minimap. Then you pull up the big map and you've got one guy fifteen grid squares away. Another fifteen grid squares the other way. Three guys chasing a much faster light. It's crazy. I don't know if most pilots even pay attention to where their team is. Sometimes, I'd be nice to see a couple mechs hold their fire until they get into position to focus fire an enemy. This, you never see.

4.) Info ops: Not in the new balance sense, but doing things like locking a target to see what it is, what it has, and how damaged it is. You almost never see this. You almost never see your teammates checking out the team; seeing how damaged people are. Helping out. Instead, you see focus firing on the first threat, not the biggest threat. No one helps anyone on the team. It's essentially 12 individuals roaming around shooting whatever they see as soon as they see it.

[Arn0ldSchwarzenegger]

SPEED - MOMENTUM - AGGRESSION

[The Great Unwashed]

and if not, then



The most difficult part of a team is trusting that people will follow you when you are at the spearhead of a push and that you do not need to slow down or take cover; they are right behind you to take fire. In less organized matches people waver, stand still, retreat. Hey, that's what I typically do when people do not push through... at that moment the team ceases to exist and becomes a blob.

I've ran a few of these matches with good teams; they do not really need to talk much because they know what needs to be done. If you follow suit then it makes sense... doesn't always work out, but you never wonder 'what might have been' while you were standing still waiting for "the right moment" to attack.

Edited by The Great Unwashed, 28 October 2015 - 07:25 AM.