950 replies to this topic

[Trystan Thorne]

DirePhoenix, on 01 May 2014 - 12:11 PM, said:

Imagine this but with a regular paint job instead of gold. This is the special pre-order geometry.

<to save some space I cout out the image and will quote Captain Jack: "Euniki, snip snip!">

EDIT: in full disclosure, despite my abhorrence of everything the Clans represent to the BattleTech franchise, I bought a MadCat a-la-carte pack yesterday. It's probably the closest I will ever get to a Marauder in this game since PGI apparently refuses to design their own or make a design "roughly based on" the one Catalyst/Topps has already been using. I lament that I will probably not get to use it while representing or fighting for the Federated Suns, but I still had to have it.

Thanks. Overall the pre-order version looks even a bit nicer.

Don't give up on the Maurader yet. I know the original design will never happen, but maybe we'll see the Maurauder IIC one day. Sure it's not as nice looking as the original Maurader, but I think PGI would make a good looking Mech out of it.
I'm still hoping to see the Warhammer IIC and the Phoenix Hawk IIC as well at some point in MWO (after CW hopefully ).

[Monsoon]

I still hold out hope that they'll go to Shimmering Sword for his versions of the Marauder:

Edited by Monsoon, 01 May 2014 - 08:06 PM.

[Cimarb]

Monsoon, on 01 May 2014 - 08:03 PM, said:

I still hold out hope that they'll go to Shimmering Sword for his versions of the Marauder:

I love his art in general, and especially his Warhammer (on Unseen Moon above), but his Marauder is more of a IIC version - far too bulky to be a Marauder (and I'm a fan of the chunky Timber Wolf...).

[JohnnyWayne]

Well I prefer the unseen moon marauder even over the original design. It just looks more like a Mech. Its even my desktopbackground.^^

[Strum Wealh]

Trystan Thorne, on 01 May 2014 - 01:51 PM, said:

Thanks. Overall the pre-order version looks even a bit nicer.

Don't give up on the Maurader yet. I know the original design will never happen, but maybe we'll see the Maurauder IIC one day. Sure it's not as nice looking as the original Maurader, but I think PGI would make a good looking Mech out of it.
I'm still hoping to see the Warhammer IIC and the Phoenix Hawk IIC as well at some point in MWO (after CW hopefully ).

IMO, it's unlikely that we'd see any of the IICs themselves (or the non-IIC Clan non-OmniTech 'Mechs) - nearly all of them don't have the variants, and the prospect of combining Clan-grade tech with the customizability of a non-OmniTech 'Mech seems like exactly the thing PGI was attempting to avoid in the first place by using the BattleTech rules for OmniMechs.

Though, that ideally shouldn't stop PGI from using the aesthetics of the Marauder IIC (specifically, the 7th variant) as the basis for their own take on the original Marauder...


Alternatively, the MAD-4X (based on the Shimmering Sword design) should also work, ideally.


However, Russ Bullock had previously made a statement to the effect of Harmony Gold having to approve any possible MWO rendition of the Macross-derived Unseen, and that HG had refused all submissions made by PGI up to that point (that is, up to October 2013).
So, unless HG has a change of heart (or "dissolves into the ether", to use Bryan Ekman's words), or an entity with deep enough pockets to beat HG at their own game (e.g. Microsoft) decides to step in, it seems unlikely that even a radical redesign of the Marauder (such as the design used in the Japanese version of BattleTech - which, ironically, was done by Studio Nue (the original creators of Macross)) may be unlikely to be seen in MWO...

[JohnnyWayne]

GO EAT SHIT HARMONY GOLD!

Srsly.. ******* patent trolls... I hope they'll be broke soon... My imperssion was they havn't released much in the last few years.

[Cimarb]

JohnnyWayne, on 02 May 2014 - 09:12 AM, said:

GO EAT SHIT HARMONY GOLD!

Srsly.. ******* patent trolls... I hope they'll be broke soon... My imperssion was they havn't released much in the last few years.

From what I have read, they are making all of their money from lawsuits, so no need to release anything new.

Edit: the speelchecker hates me...

Edited by Cimarb, 02 May 2014 - 10:26 AM.

[DirePhoenix]

Strum Wealh, on 02 May 2014 - 09:04 AM, said:

However, Russ Bullock had previously made a statement to the effect of Harmony Gold having to approve any possible MWO rendition of the Macross-derived Unseen, and that HG had refused all submissions made by PGI up to that point (that is, up to October 2013).
So, unless HG has a change of heart (or "dissolves into the ether", to use Bryan Ekman's words), or an entity with deep enough pockets to beat HG at their own game (e.g. Microsoft) decides to step in, it seems unlikely that even a radical redesign of the Marauder (such as the design used in the Japanese version of BattleTech - which, ironically, was done by Studio Nue (the original creators of Macross)) may be unlikely to be seen in MWO...

There is nothing HG can do about non-Macross derived artworks. The solution is to use art that is not derived from Macross. Clearly, Catalyst/Topps have already worked around that, with new renditions of the Unseen, even updating the previously already Re-Seen Marauder designs being used not only in print media but also in physical miniatures to incorporate some of Shimmering Sword's design features.

There is some sort of twisted expectation that the Marauder, Warhammer, Phoenix Hawk, etc. have to look like the Macross designs, and they don't. (I think these designs actually DESERVE to have their own unique artwork, not something borrowed from outside-licensed material. That worked when FASA didn't have much in the way of in-house artists, but that is clearly no longer the case)

HG only has claim on the Macross images, not the names, not the stats, not the mechs themselves. Don't use the Macross images, and there is no problem.

Edited by DirePhoenix, 02 May 2014 - 10:29 AM.

[Cimarb]

DirePhoenix, on 02 May 2014 - 10:26 AM, said:

HG only has claim on the Macross images, not the names, not the stats, not the mechs themselves. Don't use the Macross images, and there is no problem.

I don't think it's that easy, though. It's like the idiotic old lady that spills hot coffee on herself in the McDonalds drive thru and then sues McDonalds for it. That is the reason we have the stupid "warning: coffee is hot" (duh) message on every coffee cup now, and That print may not seem like much, but it is costing companies a LOT of money just to add it to all of their cups.

HG is so sue happy, they would likely sue PGI even if it looked nothing like the original, just to tie it up in litigation, forcing PGI to either fight out the meaningless battle in court, losing tons of money just to prove they are right, or settle with HG by giving them money to avoid the legal battle. That's how these scummy people make money, and unfortunately, it works far better than it should.

[DirePhoenix]

Cimarb, on 02 May 2014 - 10:58 AM, said:

HG is so sue happy, they would likely sue PGI even if it looked nothing like the original, just to tie it up in litigation, forcing PGI to either fight out the meaningless battle in court, losing tons of money just to prove they are right, or settle with HG by giving them money to avoid the legal battle. That's how these scummy people make money, and unfortunately, it works far better than it should.

If that were the case, explain how Catalyst/Topps (and by extension IronWind Metals) have, for over a decade now, been using new images for the 'mechs that previously used the Macross images.

Edited by DirePhoenix, 04 May 2014 - 01:03 AM.

[Strum Wealh]

DirePhoenix, on 02 May 2014 - 10:26 AM, said:

There is nothing HG can do about non-Macross derived artworks. The solution is to use art that is not derived from Macross. Clearly, Catalyst/Topps have already worked around that, with new renditions of the Unseen, even updating the previously already Re-Seen Marauder designs being used not only in print media but also in physical miniatures to incorporate some of Shimmering Sword's design features.

There is some sort of twisted expectation that the Marauder, Warhammer, Phoenix Hawk, etc. have to look like the Macross designs, and they don't. (I think these designs actually DESERVE to have their own unique artwork, not something borrowed from outside-licensed material. That worked when FASA didn't have much in the way of in-house artists, but that is clearly no longer the case)

HG only has claim on the Macross images, not the names, not the stats, not the mechs themselves. Don't use the Macross images, and there is no problem.

There shouldn't be anything HG can say/do about designs not derived from those from Macross.

What I'm worried has happened - and this is pure speculation on my part - is that PGI might have made some sort of agreement with HG in response to the fiasco with the MW5 trailer, wherein PGI could have actively given HG this "veto ability" that they've apparently been exercising; that would explain why HG can "veto" any designs (including those not derived from Macross/Robotech) that PGI submits (per Russ' statement) & why PGI's hands are tied until HG dissolves and can no longer enforce said agreement (following Bryan's statement)...

[Cimarb]

DirePhoenix, on 04 May 2014 - 01:02 AM, said:

If that were the case, explain how Catalyst/Topps (and by extension IronWind Metals) have, for over a decade now, been using new images for the 'mechs that previously used the Macross images.

That could be explained by size. Much like hunting cats, HG isn't going to attack the strongest in the herd - they are going to look for the weakest to avoid any personal injury to themselves in the process. That means they attack PGI, who has cash flow, but little experience legally.

I'm pretty sure HG recently got into a bigger legal problem than they had expected, but can't remember who it was with - I think it had to do with GIJOE or Transformers toys, so maybe Hasbro or Mattel?...

[Pariah Devalis]

GI Joe. The fighter looked vaguely like a Phoenix Hawk LAM in plane mode. I have no idea what it is called in Macrosseese.

As I understand it, some companies that can afford it will pay royalties to HG for the rights, but it takes an awful lot to do so. The case of the Reseen, the HG designs were never actually allowed AFAIK, which is why they redesigned the mechs entirely, but PGI cannot just use the redesigns, either, as they have an agreement not to use other people's art, either. The would need to get permission from whoever is currently producing the miniatures for Battletech to use (or heavily base) designs off of them.

Part of the problem with the excellent ShimmeringSword marauder is that it is being turned into a production model. While fantastic for the table top crowd, it is unfortunate for MWO as it kinda locks us out of that, unless PGI/IGP was willing to secure permission to base a redesign of the Marauder on Shimmering's design. Which costs money. Lots and lots of money.

For those who want to run a MAD using the Timber Wolf, it is fully doable in the Prime configuration, and should be manageable, heat wise, as long as you do not Alpha Strike:

Timber Wolf Mad Wolf
Clan TW
75 tons
Cost: 23,549,530 C-bills

Movement:81 KPH
Engine: 375 XL
Heat Sinks: 20 [40]
Gyro: Standard Gyro

Armor: 440/462 (Ferro-Fibrous)
Armor
Center Torso 80
Center Torso (rear) 12
Right Torso 54
Right Torso (rear) 10
Left Torso 54
Left Torso (rear) 10
Right Arm 48
Left Arm 48
Right Leg 51
Left Leg 51



Weapon Loc Heat
ER PPC RA 15
ER PPC LA 15
ER Medium Laser RA 5
ER Medium Laser LA 5
Ultra AC/5 LT 1

Ammo Loc Shots
Ultra AC/5 Ammo LT 1 Ton
Ultra AC/5 Ammo CT 1 Ton

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 04 May 2014 - 07:14 AM.

[Reported for Inappropriate Name]

DirePhoenix, on 01 May 2014 - 12:59 PM, said:

I only shelled out $50 for three of "those things". If you're more patient, you won't have to shell out any $ and can shell out instead.

$500 gets you 3 of each clan invasion chassis plus a gold 'mech (25 'mechs in total).

3 story tall gold painted mechs? yeah that won't be hard to miss. I really do hope people support the game so it exists long enough for me to grief them for picking sub optimal mechs. Although I may get the direwolf if it can fit dual uac20. that is literally the only thing worth investing in if so. If you don't like that I said that I'm sorry you're disillusioned with the damage/hitpoints model of gameplay and that anything but the highest damaging weapons matter.

Edited by Battlecruiser, 04 May 2014 - 11:02 AM.

[Hawk819]

I can't wait to get mine in the garage. Just a month and twelve days to go. Just purchase an upgraded to my package to Mad Cat status.

Only the Masakari (War Hawk) left.

[Zack Esseth]

Battlecruiser, on 04 May 2014 - 10:58 AM, said:

3 story tall gold painted mechs? yeah that won't be hard to miss. I really do hope people support the game so it exists long enough for me to grief them for picking sub optimal mechs. Although I may get the direwolf if it can fit dual uac20. that is literally the only thing worth investing in if so. If you don't like that I said that I'm sorry you're disillusioned with the damage/hitpoints model of gameplay and that anything but the highest damaging weapons matter.

I cant see why you couldn't do dual UAC-20s on a the Dire Wolf. It doesn't have Endo or Ferro so they cant dead lock a critt space in the arms. And as far as I know, it doesn't have heat sinks welded into it. The prime is already set with two ballistic points and i think the alt config C has four in the arms and the B has one in a torso. And part of the omni mechanic is that if you use the ballistic slot, it removes the lower arm actuator so the 20 will fit. I will probably do a quad UAC-5 on one, but we have yet to get ghost heat details for clan tech.

[Strum Wealh]

Zack Esseth, on 04 May 2014 - 11:52 AM, said:

Battlecruiser, on 04 May 2014 - 10:58 AM, said:

3 story tall gold painted mechs? yeah that won't be hard to miss. I really do hope people support the game so it exists long enough for me to grief them for picking sub optimal mechs. Although I may get the direwolf if it can fit dual uac20. that is literally the only thing worth investing in if so. If you don't like that I said that I'm sorry you're disillusioned with the damage/hitpoints model of gameplay and that anything but the highest damaging weapons matter.

I cant see why you couldn't do dual UAC-20s on a the Dire Wolf. It doesn't have Endo or Ferro so they cant dead lock a critt space in the arms. And as far as I know, it doesn't have heat sinks welded into it. The prime is already set with two ballistic points and i think the alt config C has four in the arms and the B has one in a torso. And part of the omni mechanic is that if you use the ballistic slot, it removes the lower arm actuator so the 20 will fit. I will probably do a quad UAC-5 on one, but we have yet to get ghost heat details for clan tech.

The Daishi uses standard materials for Internal Structure & Armor (rather than Endo Steel & Ferro-Fibrous), but it does use a Clan XL Engine (which take up two critical spaces in each side-torso) and has three hard-wired Clan DHS outside of the Engine (which take up two criticals apiece in each side-torso and the Left Leg).
It starts with 50.50 tons free for weapons and equipment.

As of 3051, the available configurations (excluding the character-specific "Hero 'Mechs") are the Prime, A, B, W, and S (with all but the Daishi S being available prior to 3050).
The Prime configuration has at least one ballistic hardpoint in each arm, while the B configuration has at least two ballistic hardpoints in each side-torso. The A, W, and S configurations do not add more ballistic hardpoints to any of those locations, or to any new locations (that is, the Center Torso or the Head).

So, the Daishi could theoretically have six ballistic hardpoints on a single 'Mech (at least one in each arm, plus at least two in each side-torso) by combining the arms of the Daishi Prime and the side-torsos of the Daishi B, if the Daishi B is one of the variants implemented in MWO.
And the Daishi C, canonically available in 3054, would have a Clan ECM Suite (identical in functionality to the Guardian ECM Suite, but one half-ton lighter and half the volume/crits) as an OmniPod in its Center Torso (which PGI indicated would be the identifying feature of the 'Mech, for XP tracking/accumulation purposes), stock...

I forsee many Clan players fielding the Daishi C Center Torso with the side-torsos from the Daishi B and the arms from the Daishi Prime - relatively large numbers of ballistic weapons, shrouded by ECM, on an Assault 'Mech.
Imagine such a 'Mech fielding a six-set of Clan LB 5-X ACs (35 tons for the guns, leaving plenty of tonnage and space for ammo & secondary weapons) in Slug mode, firing ~30 points of front-loaded damage out to ~720 meters every ~1.66 seconds... for a mere 6 base heat per salvo.
Imagine such a 'Mech fielding a quartet of Clan LB 10-X ACs (40 tons for the guns, still leaving plenty of tonnage and space for ammo & secondary weapons) in Slug mode, firing ~40 points of front-loaded damage out to ~540 meters every ~2.50 seconds... for a mere 8 base heat per salvo.
With 15 DHS pre-built (and hardwired) into the base 'Mech (and the ability to carry more if desired), "Ghost Heat" would likely mean very little to such loadouts.

So, the question is one of if (and how) PGI is prepared to deal with the possibility of such builds becoming the new dominant "metagame"...?

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

Battlecruiser, on 01 May 2014 - 12:52 PM, said:

looking forward to cleaning off their absurdly large side torsos and then giving them an ac/20 to the catapult huge cockpit. unless you know, pgi only makes the head hitbox one of the tiny windows. I'm more surprised people are actually shelling 500$ out for these things

I think people are forgetting something.

Clan technology developed effective countermeasure to counteract the "big hitbox" effect. A timberwolf mitigates the risk of having overendowed mech parts by running faster than Forrest Gump.

Shooting off the torsos of a lumbering atlas stumbling along at 40 kph is one thing.

Scoring a solid hit on the cockpit / side torsos of a timberwolf speed blurring its way through your crosshairs at 80 is completely different.



The hitboxes HAVE TO BE BIG else you and I would never have a prayer of hitting them!

Strum Wealh, on 04 May 2014 - 12:50 PM, said:

The Daishi uses standard materials for Internal Structure & Armor (rather than Endo Steel & Ferro-Fibrous), but it does use a Clan XL Engine (which take up two critical spaces in each side-torso) and has three hard-wired Clan DHS outside of the Engine (which take up two criticals apiece in each side-torso and the Left Leg).
It starts with 50.50 tons free for weapons and equipment.

As of 3051, the available configurations (excluding the character-specific "Hero 'Mechs") are the Prime, A, B, W, and S (with all but the Daishi S being available prior to 3050).
The Prime configuration has at least one ballistic hardpoint in each arm, while the B configuration has at least two ballistic hardpoints in each side-torso. The A, W, and S configurations do not add more ballistic hardpoints to any of those locations, or to any new locations (that is, the Center Torso or the Head).

So, the Daishi could theoretically have six ballistic hardpoints on a single 'Mech (at least one in each arm, plus at least two in each side-torso) by combining the arms of the Daishi Prime and the side-torsos of the Daishi B, if the Daishi B is one of the variants implemented in MWO.
And the Daishi C, canonically available in 3054, would have a Clan ECM Suite (identical in functionality to the Guardian ECM Suite, but one half-ton lighter and half the volume/crits) as an OmniPod in its Center Torso (which PGI indicated would be the identifying feature of the 'Mech, for XP tracking/accumulation purposes), stock...

I forsee many Clan players fielding the Daishi C Center Torso with the side-torsos from the Daishi B and the arms from the Daishi Prime - relatively large numbers of ballistic weapons, shrouded by ECM, on an Assault 'Mech.
Imagine such a 'Mech fielding a six-set of Clan LB 5-X ACs (35 tons for the guns, leaving plenty of tonnage and space for ammo & secondary weapons) in Slug mode, firing ~30 points of front-loaded damage out to ~720 meters every ~1.66 seconds... for a mere 6 base heat per salvo.
Imagine such a 'Mech fielding a quartet of Clan LB 10-X ACs (40 tons for the guns, still leaving plenty of tonnage and space for ammo & secondary weapons) in Slug mode, firing ~40 points of front-loaded damage out to ~540 meters every ~2.50 seconds... for a mere 8 base heat per salvo.
With 15 DHS pre-built (and hardwired) into the base 'Mech (and the ability to carry more if desired), "Ghost Heat" would likely mean very little to such loadouts.

So, the question is one of if (and how) PGI is prepared to deal with the possibility of such builds becoming the new dominant "metagame"...?

Aren't LBX considered short range "spray and pray" weaponry, though?

An atlas with 5 large lasers could be about as significant a threat? It may all balance out in the end. :T

Edited by I Zeratul I, 04 May 2014 - 01:10 PM.

[Zack Esseth]

Strum Wealh, on 04 May 2014 - 12:50 PM, said:

The Daishi uses standard materials for Internal Structure & Armor (rather than Endo Steel & Ferro-Fibrous), but it does use a Clan XL Engine (which take up two critical spaces in each side-torso) and has three hard-wired Clan DHS outside of the Engine (which take up two criticals apiece in each side-torso and the Left Leg).
It starts with 50.50 tons free for weapons and equipment.

As of 3051, the available configurations (excluding the character-specific "Hero 'Mechs") are the Prime, A, B, W, and S (with all but the Daishi S being available prior to 3050).
The Prime configuration has at least one ballistic hardpoint in each arm, while the B configuration has at least two ballistic hardpoints in each side-torso. The A, W, and S configurations do not add more ballistic hardpoints to any of those locations, or to any new locations (that is, the Center Torso or the Head).

So, the Daishi could theoretically have six ballistic hardpoints on a single 'Mech (at least one in each arm, plus at least two in each side-torso) by combining the arms of the Daishi Prime and the side-torsos of the Daishi B, if the Daishi B is one of the variants implemented in MWO.
And the Daishi C, canonically available in 3054, would have a Clan ECM Suite (identical in functionality to the Guardian ECM Suite, but one half-ton lighter and half the volume/crits) as an OmniPod in its Center Torso (which PGI indicated would be the identifying feature of the 'Mech, for XP tracking/accumulation purposes), stock...

I forsee many Clan players fielding the Daishi C Center Torso with the side-torsos from the Daishi B and the arms from the Daishi Prime - relatively large numbers of ballistic weapons, shrouded by ECM, on an Assault 'Mech.
Imagine such a 'Mech fielding a six-set of Clan LB 5-X ACs (35 tons for the guns, leaving plenty of tonnage and space for ammo & secondary weapons) in Slug mode, firing ~30 points of front-loaded damage out to ~720 meters every ~1.66 seconds... for a mere 6 base heat per salvo.
Imagine such a 'Mech fielding a quartet of Clan LB 10-X ACs (40 tons for the guns, still leaving plenty of tonnage and space for ammo & secondary weapons) in Slug mode, firing ~40 points of front-loaded damage out to ~540 meters every ~2.50 seconds... for a mere 8 base heat per salvo.
With 15 DHS pre-built (and hardwired) into the base 'Mech (and the ability to carry more if desired), "Ghost Heat" would likely mean very little to such loadouts.

So, the question is one of if (and how) PGI is prepared to deal with the possibility of such builds becoming the new dominant "metagame"...?

In reading your post I see I may have mixed some of the variants up. Also, didn't know that quad uac 2 variant had two in the torso, I thought they where in the arms on the B (B has four ballistics, not C, I have faltered). But still, the Dire Wolf wont have much trouble in the "I'm a walking battle ship" department.

Also, why clans no put alt config designations in order of build date. Having the Prime, A, B and W is confusing and I need a remarkably better source than Sarna.

Edited by Zack Esseth, 04 May 2014 - 01:11 PM.

[Pariah Devalis]

The Direwolf, regardless of how many guns you put on it, will still be at risk from poptart mechs. It is far too slow to close the distance across open fields fast enough to get there, and would rely on approaching from heavy cover - and considering it is a 100 ton mech it needs a lot of cover. That said, if it finds a mech in the open the Direwolf will be absolutely vicious. If you thought the Banshee was bad, this is going to make your head spin.

Warhawk will be interesting to play out. I see it being the Clan Stalker. Peeksniping with it might be what happens, though it does need to expose itself a little more than the Stalker. The 20 hardwired DHS and 30+ tons of pod space means you can fit in what energy weapons you need, have the room left over to cool them, and still have an eensy bit more to play around with for, say, an AMS or something. 2 ERPPC is no match for 22+ DHS, 23 and above can practically spam ERPPC as is. Prime will be unlikely to be used much because it is hot on top of hot, but C, with 2 ERPPC and 2 CLPlas is solid any way you cut it, especially considering those CLPLas will hit out to around 600 meters.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 04 May 2014 - 01:29 PM.