136 replies to this topic

[GalaxyBluestar]

pbiggz, on 27 April 2014 - 02:09 PM, said:

but if you come to me and tell me that THIS actually looked good, you're simply deluding yourself. THIS is 80s Japanese mecha, THIS is absurd, MWO's art style is gritty, (relatively) realistic western mecha, keep your dancing ballet mechs away from me, I do not care for them.

yep it has always looked that good, damn you harmony gold!

pbiggz, on 27 April 2014 - 03:18 PM, said:

The next person who says pipe cleaner arms are the result of fancy clan tech will be clan LRM 20'd in the face at point blank range. Pipe cleaner arms are 80s art style. ART STYLE

30 year old art style doesn't fly in a modern video game.

though i can argree with this. just shave the circumfrance of those blocks by some pixles here and there would make tons load of difference for the TW. the adder looks spot on why couldn't the timberwolf be so?

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 27 April 2014 - 10:26 PM.

[CCC Dober]

pbiggz, on 27 April 2014 - 02:09 PM, said:

Thin arms you were saying?

And no, i dont think any mech with twigs for arms looks good. Are you going to burn me at the stake for heresy?

I understand the desire to stick to what you love, I love mechwarrior 2 and 3, I loved mechwarrior 4 as well (not quite as much as 3) but if you come to me and tell me that THIS actually looked good, you're simply deluding yourself. THIS is 80s Japanese mecha, THIS is absurd, MWO's art style is gritty, (relatively) realistic western mecha, keep your dancing ballet mechs away from me, I do not care for them.

My good man, are you serious when you present the upper redesign of the lower (original) design, which is a recognized classic?

Because if you do, then pray tell where are the hordes of Mechwarrior fans that prefer the former to the latter? Even if that were the case, where are the toys and the marketing that goes with it. There is a reason why the former is 'tolerated', but that's only because the original had license issues that bit FASA in the arse down the road. Let's not mince words: the original is where it's at and the redesign falls under the category: nice try, but try harder next time. That's not just my humble opinion, but also supported by the absence of marketing pushes and echoes of the community around the globe.

I understand that it leaves you and some others in a difficult situation, but if you think for one second that people are gonna subscribe to the travesty that turns sleek and sexy into chunky, then you are headed in the wrong direction. Every Mech has visual characteristics that make it what it is. The past MW game designers paid homage to that and PGI is well advised to heed their wisdom, as it got them to sell plenty of games and build a fanbase that helped to get MWO off the ground. Call it moral blackmail if you want, but that's only because not nearly as much effort went into the Timberwolf as in other iconic Mechs, such as the Atlas. It shows because the Atlas actually looks a whole lot better for it, while the same cannot be said for the Timberwolf, angled or not.

However this does nothing for the discussion at hand. My point still stands that the Mech in question (Timberwolf) never looked chunky and disproportionate. While the concept art looks acceptable in that regard, it is the transformation to geometry that seems to be lacking. For example, if you compress the torso to address hitbox issues (a wise move), then you are selectively changing proportions that need to be balanced out as a whole in order to preserve aesthetics. That also includes arms, legs and height/stance. Call it a second pass if you want, but it needs to be done good and proper. Art and 3d need to be aligned again, if not for the reason that the former sold the actual product.

[JDante]

Old MArauder look scary .. and have more interested than new one

new style mech look like a usual machine ,similar to tractor))

old one look like the mythic mechanizm,with mystery electonics inside
all this tubes, parts its interesting

[CyclonerM]

Pariah Devalis, on 27 April 2014 - 02:29 PM, said:

Activision's Timber Wolf, MicroProse's Timber Wolf, and Microsoft's Timber Wolf all looked very different. They were only related in general shape, which is what the MWO Timber Wolf does. Key features retained in all. All of them do not look like the Table Top miniatures. Wandering Samaurai and Punakettu did not make a for profit rendition of it. As soon as money comes into the picture, things need to be changed.

Exactly my point. They are all different from each other. This means different renders can live up to my mental image of this iconic 'Mech, but not the MWO one. Why?

I was thinking about buying a à la carte Timberwolf to have it in June, but now i decided to wait. If the TW was based on any of the previous renders i mentioned i may have liked it quite more

About the arms: look again at Punakettu's Timberwolf in "Path to Terra":


I think here they look similar to the classic ones but heavier, more square and more armored than the original. I think they are a very good compromise and, so far, the best arms i ever seen in a TW design.

Also, i think their photographing skills are quite more lacking than their art skills: in some screenshots it looks far different and better than in others. I will have to see the actual model in-game to fully appreciate it indeed. It does not look terrible, mind it, but it has failed to impress me as i hoped..

[Pariah Devalis]

I think that is probably the most fair statement about it that I have heard yet.

Up until now people have been screaming it was junk. That is not only unfair to Alex as an artist, but unfair to the overall quality of the product as well, all based on personal differences in aesthetic taste. In reality, nobody seems to hate all of it, just one part of it at a time. Arms, or legs, or whatnot. There is a lot of gray here because aesthetics are personal opinions on taste. Personally, to me it looks every bit as Timber Wolf as the prior game versions of it, if not more so vs MW4 version.

It makes me wonder. If MW4 HAD an official forum like MWO, I'm sure people would have raged about the design. As Mech 4 did not, however, people learned to accept it or live it. Hating it is too strong a word by far. By just having an avenue to complain, however, it seems like minor aesthetic mismatches to individuals' mental checklists get magnified beyond all reasonable levels. The psychology of it is fascinating, really.

[CyclonerM]

Pariah Devalis, on 28 April 2014 - 12:40 PM, said:

I think that is probably the most fair statement about it that I have heard yet.

Up until now people have been screaming it was junk. That is not only unfair to Alex as an artist, but unfair to the overall quality of the product as well, all based on personal differences in aesthetic taste. In reality, nobody seems to hate all of it, just one part of it at a time. Arms, or legs, or whatnot. There is a lot of gray here because aesthetics are personal opinions on taste. Personally, to me it looks every bit as Timber Wolf as the prior game versions of it, if not more so vs MW4 version.

It makes me wonder. If MW4 HAD an official forum like MWO, I'm sure people would have raged about the design. As Mech 4 did not, however, people learned to accept it or live it. Hating it is too strong a word by far. By just having an avenue to complain, however, it seems like minor aesthetic mismatches to individuals' mental checklists get magnified beyond all reasonable levels. The psychology of it is fascinating, really.

Interesting indeed

True, i may have complained too about the Timberwolf in MW4 (i did not mention it among my favourite for a reason).

Anyway, i still think it is even less true to the original designs than the MW4 "Mad Cat". The difference is small of course but still the MW4 version had a longer torso. Sure, it was painfully easy to die with it, but playing a bit with hitboxes may alleviate the issue.. And as you well know it is often a matter of perception. If they could have made the torso in MWO only slightly longer, not making it too big but making it look less a pug nose and more a wolfish head...

[ramp4ge]

CCC Dober, on 27 April 2014 - 11:28 PM, said:

My good man, are you serious when you present the upper redesign of the lower (original) design, which is a recognized classic?

Because if you do, then pray tell where are the hordes of Mechwarrior fans that prefer the former to the latter? Even if that were the case, where are the toys and the marketing that goes with it. There is a reason why the former is 'tolerated', but that's only because the original had license issues that bit FASA in the arse down the road. Let's not mince words: the original is where it's at and the redesign falls under the category: nice try, but try harder next time. That's not just my humble opinion, but also supported by the absence of marketing pushes and echoes of the community around the globe.

I understand that it leaves you and some others in a difficult situation, but if you think for one second that people are gonna subscribe to the travesty that turns sleek and sexy into chunky, then you are headed in the wrong direction. Every Mech has visual characteristics that make it what it is. The past MW game designers paid homage to that and PGI is well advised to heed their wisdom, as it got them to sell plenty of games and build a fanbase that helped to get MWO off the ground. Call it moral blackmail if you want, but that's only because not nearly as much effort went into the Timberwolf as in other iconic Mechs, such as the Atlas. It shows because the Atlas actually looks a whole lot better for it, while the same cannot be said for the Timberwolf, angled or not.

However this does nothing for the discussion at hand. My point still stands that the Mech in question (Timberwolf) never looked chunky and disproportionate. While the concept art looks acceptable in that regard, it is the transformation to geometry that seems to be lacking. For example, if you compress the torso to address hitbox issues (a wise move), then you are selectively changing proportions that need to be balanced out as a whole in order to preserve aesthetics. That also includes arms, legs and height/stance. Call it a second pass if you want, but it needs to be done good and proper. Art and 3d need to be aligned again, if not for the reason that the former sold the actual product.

I think that redesign looks way better than the original Marauder, simply because I'll never be able to take the original Marauder seriously after seeing Glaugs prance around looking ridiculous. Compared to that, the redesign is fantastic.

[pbiggz]

CCC Dober, on 27 April 2014 - 11:28 PM, said:

My good man, are you serious when you present the upper redesign of the lower (original) design, which is a recognized classic?

Because if you do, then pray tell where are the hordes of Mechwarrior fans that prefer the former to the latter? Even if that were the case, where are the toys and the marketing that goes with it. There is a reason why the former is 'tolerated', but that's only because the original had license issues that bit FASA in the arse down the road. Let's not mince words: the original is where it's at and the redesign falls under the category: nice try, but try harder next time. That's not just my humble opinion, but also supported by the absence of marketing pushes and echoes of the community around the globe.

I understand that it leaves you and some others in a difficult situation, but if you think for one second that people are gonna subscribe to the travesty that turns sleek and sexy into chunky, then you are headed in the wrong direction. Every Mech has visual characteristics that make it what it is. The past MW game designers paid homage to that and PGI is well advised to heed their wisdom, as it got them to sell plenty of games and build a fanbase that helped to get MWO off the ground. Call it moral blackmail if you want, but that's only because not nearly as much effort went into the Timberwolf as in other iconic Mechs, such as the Atlas. It shows because the Atlas actually looks a whole lot better for it, while the same cannot be said for the Timberwolf, angled or not.

However this does nothing for the discussion at hand. My point still stands that the Mech in question (Timberwolf) never looked chunky and disproportionate. While the concept art looks acceptable in that regard, it is the transformation to geometry that seems to be lacking. For example, if you compress the torso to address hitbox issues (a wise move), then you are selectively changing proportions that need to be balanced out as a whole in order to preserve aesthetics. That also includes arms, legs and height/stance. Call it a second pass if you want, but it needs to be done good and proper. Art and 3d need to be aligned again, if not for the reason that the former sold the actual product.

Chunky Mad Cat says hi



Chunky Mad Cat wants to have a word with you.



And just to add constructively to this conversation, PGI wont change the model, because they have yet to downsize the awesome, or flatten the dragon's nose, or make the trebuchet less wide. Hit box changes dont fix these mechs, they're simply built to big and their key components are too easy to hit, no matter where you put the hit boxes.

Edited by pbiggz, 04 May 2014 - 09:08 PM.

[_Comrade_]

No more marauder pics! You guys are making me miss that mech and curse harmony gold.

[Pariah Devalis]

pbiggz, on 04 May 2014 - 09:06 PM, said:

Man, this mech was such a deathtrap. That CT was just hellaciously bad. I remember fighting one online with a 6 ERLLas Nova Cat and just disassembling the poor guy. Right ear, left ear, right arm, left arm, right leg, and then drilled the CT out. Any time I fought a Timber Wolf in mech 4, it was a priority target just because it would die so fast because of the jutting CT.

THAT, far and away beyond the side torsos, is the real concern I have for the mech. Hopefully part of the cowling around the nose in MWO counts as side torso.

[Wolfstanus]

I'm just going to leave this here

My introduction to MechWarrior was "MechAssault 1/2"

[ShadowWolf Kell]

Grimwill, on 04 May 2014 - 09:10 PM, said:

No more marauder pics! You guys are making me miss that mech and curse harmony gold.

I still have all my Marauder stuff. TROs, boxed set, reinforcement cards and Ral Partha miniatures. Still one of the sexiest mechs of all time.

[Grimmrog]

Shath Allenson, on 11 April 2014 - 02:14 PM, said:

My thoughts are as follows torso, legs and weapons are all messed up. I realy wanted this one mainly for nastalgia, but this basterdised version of it, hell no I'll keep my money and thanks for the heads up on that posible mispurchase. I think the catapult looks more like a twolf then this does.

except from missing arms, this is so true.

The whole TW design has too many squares and Cubes. Why doesn't it has the Catapults legs? They would look so much better on the TW than the legs it got now.

So while w ehave a catapult ingame, and the MAD CAT got named by beign a mix of Marauder and catapult, where except from the rocket batteries is the Catapult in this MAD CAT.

[PitchBlackYeti]

Legs on the MWO MadCat don't bother me at all, same with the rest of the mech. I like the chunkiness of the PGI design, it just fits the modern game design better than the chicken-leg version from the 80's. And before hardcore BT fans come for me with torches and pitchforks let me say that I'm old enough to remember the original designs and I liked them very much back then. But as time progresses, the artstyles have to move on too. I agree with the above post though that giving it Catapult legs would be more lore-friendly.

What bothers me more is how the MadCat will perform under the current mechanics we have, namely the missile pods being part of side torso hitbox. We all know how fragile the missile pods are on the Catapults, you rarely see one making it to the end of a game with both "ears" intact. And while on the Catapult loosing an ear means loosing half of your firepower, it will be death sentence for all MadCats running XL engines (somehow I doubt we will get clan XLs with 2 crit space in ST or even more doubtful, new separate hitboxes). Killing an engine by shooting an external missile module seems off, much like dealing damage through a commanders cupola in World of Tanks. I fear that the MadCat will share the same fate as Tiger I in WoT, players will rush to play an iconic mech which will turn out to be mediocre at best due to game mechanic limitations. That said, I know I want to play it nevertheless

Edited by PitchBlackYeti, 08 May 2014 - 01:44 AM.

[GalaxyBluestar]

PitchBlackYeti, on 08 May 2014 - 01:40 AM, said:

And before hardcore BT fans come for me with torches and pitchforks let me say that I'm old enough to remember the original designs and I liked them very much back then. But as time progresses, the artstyles have to move on too.

and so does my wallet moving on...

[Forte]

I'm very much a fan of the Timberwolf design. I like my mechs to feel like a military machine. The older renders of the Timberwolf just felt....off. I couldn't connect with it because I couldn't stand the arms and legs. They just didn't look like they were actually attached, or could hold ammo, or hold their own weight really. This version looks sturdy. It can eat that AC20 round and punch you back. I could see the legs bending some more and making it a tad shorter, but overall I'm happy with the design. I don't know who made this particular design but he/she did an amazing job modernizing and militarizing this mech.