180 replies to this topic

[100 Tonne]

I know there have been many suggestion on how to balance ballistic weapons, but I have not seen this idea. (if it has been suggested then sorry)

What if you can only carry a maximum of 2 tons per ballistic weapon. Then balance how much shots per ton each type of weapon can have.

You still could have the unique feel of ballistics but would need to carry back up lasers as you would run out of ammo fast!

[BourbonFaucet]

Putting limits on customization freedom like that tends to get Mechwarrior players angry.

A better way is to impose a psychological "cap" on the ammo count by making the chance of ammo exploding when critted out much more likely.

Edited by Techorse, 07 April 2014 - 05:58 AM.

[FupDup]

Arbitrary, and pretty much cripples non-MG ballistics (and maybe Gauss, because its slow RoF makes it fairly ammo efficient). No support.

[Dock Steward]

Plus it gives no attention to whether or not that particular weapon is considered a primary or secondary weapon on that particular build. Sometimes my AC/20 is basically all that medium mech has (backup lasers too, obviously), and sometimes that AC/20 is just the punch in an overall powerhouse build. That first mech needs more ammo than the second.

Edit* Needed a comma

Edited by Dock Steward, 04 April 2014 - 09:45 PM.

[Hoffenstein]

Only if you cap heatsinks at 2 per energy weapon too.

[Mcgral18]

Hoffenstein, on 04 April 2014 - 09:44 PM, said:

Only if you cap heatsinks at 2 per energy weapon too.

The difference is, ammo was increased from TT, while heat dissipation was nerfed hard, 1.4 per external DHS and 3x fire rates.

The OP isn't a good option either, but it would certainly make the game play differently.

[wolf74]

Ammo count got taken up because Armor values were doubled to extend game. But a side effect of doubling armor is a indirect nerf of all ammo based weapons due to the limit rounds you had per ton.

[Mcgral18]

wolf74, on 04 April 2014 - 10:04 PM, said:

Ammo count got taken up because Armor values were doubled to extend game. But a side effect of doubling armor is a indirect nerf of all ammo based weapons due to the limit rounds you had per ton.

A similar argument is that due to the pinpoint nature of aiming in MWO, that ton of ammo is so much more effective than in TT, where you have a chance to hit just about any component, while you can aim for a torso or leg in MWO without difficulty.

More effective use of more ammo. Still, double armor and not quite doubled ammo can take a toll, but I'd say it's in a decent spot.

If we were restricted to two tons, then yes, there would need to be a buff.

[El Bandito]

Just make the ballistic range 2X.

[wolf74]

Ammo amount where Not Doubled, they were only taken up on a average of 50%. VS the Armor Doubling.

I do agree the pinpoint auto-convergence is at the Core to much of Direct fire Boat builds.

[kapusta11]

What's wrong with ballistic weapons in the first place?

[wolf74]

(Wavy Line Flash Back )

Auto-Convergence is set to Auto
Mech are dying in tree or less hits
Armor Values Double to let game play last Longer
Most ammo base weapons get a small boost to Shots per ton of ammo due to Armor Values being doubled (SRM & M.G. have not had there Ammo count boosted)

Flash forward

The Core root many (myself in that group) started with perfect Auto-Convergence (AKA point and Click mentally), the OP problem seems to come from AC have the Ammo they need to do there Job.


If you drop the Max Ammo Per weapon to two ton, I would have only One Extra heat Sink Per weapon add would be aloud to Counter Balance Energy weapons. (reason only one is because the Engine Comes with 10 Already)

[Mystere]

A better suggestion is to bring back rearm and repair and at full 100% rates. In that way, missiles too are covered. It will also help nudge people in using more energy weapons.

[OneEyed Jack]

Sure, we'll just limit the number of shots on energy weapons, too.... at about half the shots of an equivalent ballistic, since you're strapping yourself with a much smaller and lighter boat anchor when it runs out.

[wanderer]

Mystere, on 05 April 2014 - 02:23 PM, said:

A better suggestion is to bring back rearm and repair and at full 100% rates. In that way, missiles too are covered. It will also help nudge people in using more energy weapons.

Cue non-premium types using energy weapons exclusively. When we had R&R, LRMs were literally throwing C-bills at your targets. I used to just run my old Founder's Cat with lasers and a cheap standard engine, because money.

[wolf74]

R&R that does Change a Lot of Meta Build that for Sure, My Old A1 Catapult could burn through $500,000 C-Bills of ammo in a game (Before the lower the Price on ammo)

Good thing we only had to pay for 75% of our ammo used.

Edited by wolf74, 05 April 2014 - 02:55 PM.

[stjobe]

Big Grimm, on 04 April 2014 - 08:33 PM, said:

What if you can only carry a maximum of 2 tons per ballistic weapon. Then balance how much shots per ton each type of weapon can have.

You still could have the unique feel of ballistics but would need to carry back up lasers as you would run out of ammo fast!

We want to balance autocannons, not nerf them into oblivion.

The only change they need is to make them spread their damage like every other weapon, i.e. make them burst-fire. If you feel frisky you could drop their range to 2x as well (and increase missiles to 2x while you're at it), and then we're pretty well set.

As for R&R, I'm just going to state that it was a horrible implementation of a very central idea in the BattleTech universe, and that properly implemented R&R probably should be in MWO in one form or another.

An idea I've always been fond of is to tie it to affiliation and match rewards:

• House units players pay 0% R&R but only get 50% rewards (the 'Mech belongs to the House and you're on salary).
  
• Merc corps players pay 50% R&R and gets 100% rewards (you own your 'Mech and get a cut of the profits).
  
• Lone Wolf player pay 100% R&R and gets 200% rewards (you're on your own, win or lose).

[101011]

That was a big balancing factor in TT though; as people were less likely to take out their decked out DD's when they knew that they would have to pay the hefty bill for it when it was destroyed.

EDIT:

stjobe, on 05 April 2014 - 02:55 PM, said:

We want to balance autocannons, not nerf them into oblivion.

The only change they need is to make them spread their damage like every other weapon, i.e. make them burst-fire. If you feel frisky you could drop their range to 2x as well (and increase missiles to 2x while you're at it), and then we're pretty well set.

Yes to the burst-fire idea, no to the missiles. The thing is, there is a physical explanation for why lasers/ballistics have increased extreme range. Laser slowly lose focus over distance, ballistics lose momentum. Missiles, however, do not rely on their momentum to deal damage, but a fixed payload.The only way, at least for me, to make the 2x work would be to have a x% chance that a missile loses track and explodes where x is a variable constantly adjusted for based off of a few criteria:

• Whether shooter still has lock on
  
• Distance
  
• If no lock on, then time since lock was lost

These would combine so that a number of missiles hit causing damage approximately equivalent to a laser fired at the same degree of extreme range, as opposed to simply making missiles do less damage which makes no sense.

Edited by 101011, 05 April 2014 - 03:03 PM.

[Errinovar]

Horrible idea that will make AC worthless. AC already pay a weight tax and live under a damage over time potential limitation in exchange for lower heat per shot. Seriously if you limit the tonnage to 2 max per AC you would have to increase the ammo per ton dramatically, particularly in cases like the AC 20 where as it stands, shooting with 100% accuracy, 2 tons gives a 280 damage cap for that weapon which takes up 16 tons and 12 critical slots with ammo. For 14 tons and 6 critical slots you could add 2 ppcs and have no damage cap.

[Mystere]

wanderer, on 05 April 2014 - 02:40 PM, said:

Cue non-premium types using energy weapons exclusively. When we had R&R, LRMs were literally throwing C-bills at your targets. I used to just run my old Founder's Cat with lasers and a cheap standard engine, because money.

Space poors should not be wasting ammo like there is no tomorrow.

wolf74, on 05 April 2014 - 02:54 PM, said:

R&R that does Change a Lot of Meta Build that for Sure, My Old A1 Catapult could burn through $500,000 C-Bills of ammo in a game (Before the lower the Price on ammo)

Good thing we only had to pay for 75% of our ammo used.

And which is why I am calling for 100% rates.

Edited by Mystere, 05 April 2014 - 03:27 PM.