202 replies to this topic

[Profiteer]

So I play a bunch of games and stomp the enemy 12-0, 12-1. It's fun for a few games, then boring. (zero challenge)

All of a sudden the MM decides I've won too much and puts our 4-man with 8 complete newbs. No amount of carrying is enough, we get smashed.

Rinse and repeat.

I'm lucky to get 1-2 games out of ten that resemble anything like a good fight.



I DON'T WANT TO PLAY WITH OR AGAINST NEWBS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



I've been playing over a year and consider myself a good pilot. I should not have to put up with casuals, newbs, etc (no offense) in my games. It's BS.

There should be tiers: Soldier, Veteran, Elite, to separate players.

Don't give me "there aren't enough people playing", if the community is that small is time to close shop.

I just want good fights with/against people of a similar skill level as me.

[Klappspaten]

You seem to have the same problem as I have.
If you are in a certain ELO level you get all the newbs, because they start with pretty much the same ELO level.

[Androas]

Klappspaten, on 05 April 2014 - 03:07 AM, said:

You seem to have the same problem as I have.
If you are in a certain ELO level you get all the newbs, because they start with pretty much the same ELO level.

ELO never worked in Team Games, in the end, you rate people based on the perfomance of 23 OTHER people....

[Charons Little Helper]

Androas, on 05 April 2014 - 03:14 AM, said:

ELO never worked in Team Games, in the end, you rate people based on the perfomance of 23 OTHER people....

Yes it does - it just takes a lot longer to get to your proper Elo.

With law of large numbers, the other 23 people will eventually average out, leaving only one common denominator.

And - by the way Elo works - new players by definition start in the middle. (though I believe during the cadet bonus they get a 200 point Elo nerf that falls away after game 25)

[stjobe]

Personally I think a ladder-rank system would have worked better for MWO; start at the bottom and work your way up, only play with and against players on the same ladder rank as you.

[Papaspud]

Just luck of the draw, I play with and against all the tourney winners during prime time, then later I am often on team after team of guys that are " new to the game". Sadly the only thing that you can do, is just take your beating and move on. I guess if your KDR or win loss ratio are very important to you, then that would suk. Me- I like to win and kill, but I have decided it is a crap shoot every game, sometimes you just run into trouble, or have a bad team, no use getting too excited about it.

[o0Marduk0o]

Carry harder...

[Charons Little Helper]

Papaspud, on 05 April 2014 - 03:39 AM, said:

I guess if your KDR or win loss ratio are very important to you, then that would suk.

Really - on a match to match basis - a better indicator is how you do in comparison to the rest of your team.

If I pull out 300 damage and only one other person on the team broke 200, I feel pretty good about the match even if we did get rolled. (though I don't think stomps happen nearly as often as one would think by reading the boards )

(conversely, if I overextended early and end up with 80 damage I feel lame, even if my team ends up winning)

Oh - and a pet peeve of mine is people who hide in a corner for the last 2-5 min when they know they're gonna lose, just to protect their precious K/D. Gah!

Edited by Charons Little Helper, 05 April 2014 - 04:19 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

Horribads need all the help they can get. If they win 50% of their games they are content. And PGI builds this game for noobs. Thus you have the MM you have now.

[Charons Little Helper]

Profiteer, on 05 April 2014 - 03:03 AM, said:

All of a sudden the MM decides I've won too much

That doesn't actually happen. I have no idea where that myth came from, but it's purely psychological. Elo doesn't work like that.

[Redshift2k5]

The Elo matcher takes many, many games to adjust your Elo. One or two wins in a row is not going to force the MM to put you with a bunch of scrubs. That's just a random matchmaker being random.

[CCC Dober]

Charons Little Helper, on 05 April 2014 - 03:28 AM, said:

...
With law of large numbers, the other 23 people will eventually average out, leaving only one common denominator.
...

Assuming that the skill levels of individual players don't fluctuate too wildly fo course. Which they do.
Your own performance gets drowned in all that static. The resulting ELO is merely an indicator of average team performance, not singular performance.

Once you've played a couple thousand games, you just realize that your individual performance depends much more on the other players than you may like to admit. If you play against vets, chances are that you don't have a chance to shine. If you play against newbies however ...

Likewise, whether you are teamed with vets or newbies also makes a huge difference regarding your performance. You may not even be able to get more than one shot on target before it explodes, simply because the vets are practicing focus fire. With newbies around, there is more opportunity to deal damage and score kills because they lack cohesion and experience. By the same token you are also much more likely to lose when facing vets, regardless of your skill and performance.

Long story short: ELO works in 1vs1 games. Outside of that it fails, rather predictably.

[Roadkill]

CCC Dober, on 05 April 2014 - 04:43 AM, said:

Long story short: ELO works in 1vs1 games. Outside of that it fails, rather predictably.

Wrong. And more importantly, mathematically proven to be wrong.

Elo works just fine in multiplayer games, and has been repeatedly proven to do so. It just takes longer for your rating to stabilize.

The problem with MWO is that the matchmaker uses too wide of a rating spread when creating matches, which is necessary to create matches in a reasonable amount of time because the player base is so small.

[CCC Dober]

Roadkill, on 05 April 2014 - 04:51 AM, said:

Wrong. And more importantly, mathematically proven to be wrong.

Elo works just fine in multiplayer games, and has been repeatedly proven to do so. It just takes longer for your rating to stabilize.

The problem with MWO is that the matchmaker uses too wide of a rating spread when creating matches, which is necessary to create matches in a reasonable amount of time because the player base is so small.

Of course it can work in multiplayer games, if you consider 1vs1 a multiplayer game and leave it at that.

I'm curious what kind of assumptions were made to "prove" that ELO works past that point. Don't be shy, please do share with us.

[Charons Little Helper]

CCC Dober, on 05 April 2014 - 04:43 AM, said:

Assuming that the skill levels of individual players don't fluctuate too wildly fo course. Which they do.
Your own performance gets drowned in all that static. The resulting ELO is merely an indicator of average team performance, not singular performance.

Wrong.

They skill levels of individual players do fluctuate.

However, eventually they will average out. With enough games, your average opponent will be equivelent to your average teammate. You are the only common denominator.

It's like how casinos work. In the short term table games like roulette and craps seem totally random. That you can get lucky and come out ahead. And in the short term, you can. But eventually the house always wins.

[Roughneck45]

ELO isn't a bad thing there are just too many variables in MWO.

The combination of team average ELO, custom mech builds, and a low player population make it difficult to have really well balanced matches.

The launch module and 3/3/3/3 will help some but it seems to me like a temporary fix for a more complicated problem.

[CCC Dober]

Charons Little Helper, on 05 April 2014 - 04:58 AM, said:

Wrong.

They skill levels of individual players do fluctuate.

However, eventually they will average out. With enough games, your average opponent will be equivelent to your average teammate. You are the only common denominator.

It's like how casinos work. In the short term table games like roulette and craps seem totally random. That you can get lucky and come out ahead. And in the short term, you can. But eventually the house always wins.

Which is what I wrote. Read more closely next time.

The problem with you suggesting that MWO players average out like dice in a casino or roulette is a pretty bold claim.

They do not and with a bit of thinking you can come to that conclusion rather quickly. Each player develops differently. You don't meet the same players and you don't have the same team compositions and maps every time you play. With dice or a roulette table that's not an issue, because the playing pieces and their environment stay the same.

In MWO there is no basis for any of that to average out. Not even the players that participate handle the same input devices or play by the exact same rules. None of that is visible, but it has an impact regardless. It's utter chaos to put it lightly. Try to average that out. I guess if nothing else, it makes for good entertainment, heh.

[MonkeyDCecil]

I fell you pain OP. I am not a bad player or a good player. I am the middle player. And since new players start in the middle, god knows why, I am always playing with newbies. And I just think that is wrong. New players should start at the bottom and have to work their way up. That is just IMO. Maybe that would not work I don't know. But I hate it when I get into a match with a whole bunch of people still trying to L2P. HATE IT! I just want to play against people who already know how to play. That is all.

Edited by MonkeyDCecil, 05 April 2014 - 10:06 AM.

[Mystere]

Charons Little Helper, on 05 April 2014 - 04:21 AM, said:

That doesn't actually happen. I have no idea where that myth came from, but it's purely psychological. Elo doesn't work like that.

It's the Goebbels' principle at work.

[Charons Little Helper]

MonkeyDCecil, on 05 April 2014 - 10:06 AM, said:

I fell you pain OP. I am not a bad player or a good player. I am the middle player. And since new players start in the middle, god knows why

It's the nature of Elo unfortunately. They do get a slight nerf during the Cadet period. One could argue to increase and/or extend it, but their base Elo has to start there.