42 replies to this topic

[Rex Budman]

Karl Streiger, on 14 April 2014 - 02:41 AM, said:

When they are able to keep the 180m off - and you arn't able to close or kill them because you have a LOS you deserve that.

Hey - i have a stalker an i have LRMs...and TAG...and you know what - i fire them mostly at ranges below 300m with LOS.
I ran a Wolverine with LRM...same here....

Yes i use them as medium range brawling weapons.... while i admit that they can destroy a target really fast with LOS at this range....(but hey - that is necessary to compete with PPC, and ACs.... and sry its not no skill because i have that TAG on you . at this range every other weapon would hit eighter.

Necessary to compete with PPC? A high heat 10 point damage pinpoint weapon that requires aim? As opposed to a low heat low cooldown quick LOCK ON weapon that only requires momentary LOS or the LOs of another mech?

300m Stalker positioning for your LRMs just means you are using the weapon as a support weapon because you are not being focused on. That says absolutely nothing in regards to the topic of this thread.

[Thorqemada]

Zerberoff, on 14 April 2014 - 02:35 AM, said:

Good for you to always find a good cover... sad for the people what stand right behind you trying to join you into that spot but fail because you blocking it this time. Of course AMS runing dry and if you have a good cover it helps you like nothing... but maybe it would have helped your mate inside the Atlas that cant reach the right cover in time.
Teamplay anyone?

Well, any other of my Mechs does still have AMS and in the PUGplay i often am the only one that moves to the target of a LRM-Barrage to assist with my AMS in the LRM-Defense - seldom for a viable result - Cover-Jealousy feels like a strange set of mind to me.
Atm i see the AMS as Placeholder-Tonnage on my Mechs to free up for better use as soon as available.

[El Bandito]

Rex Budman, on 14 April 2014 - 02:43 AM, said:

Necessary to compete with PPC? A high heat 10 point damage pinpoint weapon that requires aim? As opposed to a low heat low cooldown quick LOCK ON weapon that only requires momentary LOS or the LOs of another mech? 300m Stalker positioning for your LRMs just means you are using the weapon as a support weapon because you are not being focused on. That says absolutely nothing in regards to the topic of this thread.

No use arguing with you. You know why the ACs+PPCs are better than LRMs in LOS battle? I can target individual parts and weak points of mechs and hit that same spot with all of my shots. Can't do that with LRMs.

Can't strip that right torso AC20 off of an Atlas with LRMs, unless he has red internals. Can't leg that Light with LRMs even when he is moving slowly. Can't headshot that Catapult with LRMs even when he is standing still.

Edited by El Bandito, 14 April 2014 - 02:55 AM.

[Rex Budman]

El Bandito, on 14 April 2014 - 02:52 AM, said:

No use arguing with you. You know why the ACs+PPCs are better than LRMs in LOS battle? I can target individual parts and weak points of mechs and hit that same spot with all of my shots. Can't do that with LRMs.

Can't strip that right torso AC20 off of an Atlas with LRMs. Can't leg that Light with LRMs. Can't headshot that Catapult with LRMs.

That is fact on an open ground. However AC's and PPC's would not be able to do sufficient damage to a mech that is constantly locking you from behind cover, with JJ and tag.

Medium mechs by the way are pretty darn lethal to light mechs when equipped with SRM. So mediums are not as useless as you say they are or were.

No use arguing with you as you seem to find solace that these kinds of builds bring balance to the game.

Edited by Rex Budman, 14 April 2014 - 02:55 AM.

[El Bandito]

Rex Budman, on 14 April 2014 - 02:54 AM, said:

That is fact on an open ground. However AC's and PPC's would not be able to do sufficient damage to a mech that is constantly locking you from behind cover. No use arguing with you as you seem to find solace that these kinds of builds bring balance to the game.

Current LRMs does not bring balance to the game only because AC+PPC is still the king. There is no other build that can topple it and the nature of only one viable build unbalances MWO. Ask any actually good pilots and they will say the exact same thing. Because of that, all 12 man drops are full of direct fire weapons, and almost no LRM boats. When LRMs are further buffed, then maybe we can see some balance.

Edited by El Bandito, 14 April 2014 - 03:01 AM.

[Rex Budman]

El Bandito, on 14 April 2014 - 02:57 AM, said:

Current LRMs does not bring balance to the game only because AC+PPC is still the king. There is no other build that can topple it and the nature of only one viable build unbalances MWO. Ask any actually good pilots and they will say the exact same thing. When LRMs are further buffed, then maybe we can see some balance.

Oh wow, further buffing to LRMs to balance out the low damage pin points? What are you doing sitting in LOs constantly for those weps to do sufficient damage?

I run a 4xPPC Jester and let me tell you this thing does not function as well as you think it does. So at the end of the day you view my wanting balance and nerfing of the LRM range as an indication of my piloting skill? Oh please, give me a break. Just don;t bother responding to my threads then. It must be lonely up there on your pedestal.

[El Bandito]

Rex Budman, on 14 April 2014 - 03:00 AM, said:

Oh wow, further buffing to LRMs to balance out the low damage pin points? What are you doing sitting in LOs constantly for those weps to do sufficient damage? I run a 4xPPC Jester and let me tell you this thing does not function as well as you think it does. So at the end of the day you view my wanting balance and nerfing of the LRM range as an indication of my piloting skill? Oh please, give me a break. Just don;t bother responding to my threads then. It must be lonely up there on your pedestal.

Fine then, I'll just leave you with your shitty thread, since you do not seem to get the idea. Go ahead and cry the next time you see a Medium LRM boat.


Complaining about Mediums of all things, for shame...

Edited by El Bandito, 14 April 2014 - 03:03 AM.

[Zerberoff]

Thorqemada, on 14 April 2014 - 02:50 AM, said:

Well, any other of my Mechs does still have AMS and in the PUGplay i often am the only one that moves to the target of a LRM-Barrage to assist with my AMS in the LRM-Defense - seldom for a viable result - Cover-Jealousy feels like a strange set of mind to me.
Atm i see the AMS as Placeholder-Tonnage on my Mechs to free up for better use as soon as available.

So you do care for the team by taking AMS with you, even if its just for that time untill you find a better use of it. Some others like the OP doesnt, coming into the Forum and whining about Lights/Mediums that carry NARC and Tag and then Kill him with all these Overpowered LRM5´s or maybe LRM10´s voleys......to stay on Topic...

[Rex Budman]

El Bandito, on 14 April 2014 - 03:02 AM, said:

Fine then, I'll just leave you with your shitty thread, since you do not seem to get the idea. Go ahead and cry the next time you see a Medium LRM boat.


Complaining about Mediums of all things, for shame...

Yup sweet cya Bandito - enjoy your game where you are spoon fed damage.

Zerberoff, on 14 April 2014 - 03:04 AM, said:

So you do care for the team by taking AMS with you, even if its just for that time untill you find a better use of it. Some others like the OP doesnt, coming into the Forum and whining about Lights/Mediums that carry NARC and Tag and then Kill him with all these Overpowered LRM5´s or maybe LRM10´s voleys......to stay on Topic...

Oh Jesus... It's not about the LRM being OP - it's about being kited by medium mechs that have too much capability. Again; Extend, lock, fire, hide, JJ, lock fire, run.

Yeah sure, you might get a couple of ACs into it, maybe a couple of PPC shots, but that's it. If you can't grasp that then you just enjoy having a game where you are spoon fed and skill doesn't apply.

Having said that, why not just increase the min range of the LRM to say 300m? That would solve the issue greatly. It's a LONG range missile. That way a medium with TAG/NARC and LRM+JJ+high Speed won;t be able to do as much damage and bring it some balance.

I didn't think Mediums would even bother with LRM until I saw these.

Edited by Rex Budman, 14 April 2014 - 03:07 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Rex Budman, on 14 April 2014 - 03:06 AM, said:

Having said that, why not just increase the min range of the LRM to say 300m? That would solve the issue greatly. It's a LONG range missile. That way a medium with TAG/NARC and LRM+JJ+high Speed won;t be able to do as much damage and bring it some balance.

I didn't think Mediums would even bother with LRM until I saw these.

OK lets think about it hypothetical.

we increase the min range to 300m...(hey battletech has a rule for that - called extreme range LRMS... so we take them as base ok?)
GIven the range increase for LRMs over TT LRMs those Extended LRMs will have a range of 1650m.

Great we have no brawling LRMs any longer - but now we have LRM boats that can stay at assault maps near the turrets and hit any enemy on the field - take the smallest reactor you need....and lets rain....

BTW: so you will stop playing MWO when the Stormcrow runs with 100kph into short range and gives you a hail of LRM20 and SSRM 12s

Edited by Karl Streiger, 14 April 2014 - 03:23 AM.

[Rex Budman]

Karl Streiger, on 14 April 2014 - 03:23 AM, said:

OK lets think about it hypothetical.

we increase the min range to 300m...(hey battletech has a rule for that - called extreme range LRMS... so we take them as base ok?)
GIven the range increase for LRMs over TT LRMs those Extended LRMs will have a range of 1650m.

Great we have no brawling LRMs any longer - but now we have LRM boats that can stay at assault maps near the turrets and hit any enemy on the field - take the smallest reactor you need....and lets rain....

BTW: so you will stop playing MWO when the Stormcrow runs with 100kph into short range and gives you a hail of LRM20 and SSRM 12s

See when it comes to TT I don't give a damn. This game follows TT but doesn;t follow TT - it's really a cherry pick from TT, so it's just not relevant.

Stormcrow - ouch. Honestly, under the current mechanic, that is going to be an issue. That's kind of the issue already without the SSRM. A viable counter just doesn't exist outside of an ECM light.

The Spiders seem to be the best option to run in all of this mess.

[Karl Streiger]

Rex Budman, on 14 April 2014 - 03:27 AM, said:

See when it comes to TT I don't give a damn. This game follows TT but doesn;t follow TT - it's really a cherry pick from TT, so it's just not relevant.

I don't think that it was a good idea to keep most values of TT either.

Anyhow - you can't increase the minimum range without adding more range at the other end.... and LRMs are almost a dead weight at those ranges - (never understand pure LRM boats anyhow - park there mech in open terrain at let missiles fly - even if you need a ton of ammo - a single point of dammage is worth the effort)

But we don't really want and "increase" of indirect LRM capabilitys... i really want to see this capability reduced - not the direct fire mode.

[Rex Budman]

Karl Streiger, on 14 April 2014 - 03:33 AM, said:

I don't think that it was a good idea to keep most values of TT either.

Anyhow - you can't increase the minimum range without adding more range at the other end.... and LRMs are almost a dead weight at those ranges - (never understand pure LRM boats anyhow - park there mech in open terrain at let missiles fly - even if you need a ton of ammo - a single point of dammage is worth the effort)

But we don't really want and "increase" of indirect LRM capabilitys... i really want to see this capability reduced - not the direct fire mode.

Mmm you make a point there but do we really need to increase the max range considering the current scale of maps? The current 1000m range is a very high range and I see Alpine as being the only challenge to that range. Caustic perhaps, but the rest would not need an increase as they pretty much can traverse the map already albeit an exaggeration but you get what I mean...

[Thorqemada]

Zerberoff, on 14 April 2014 - 03:04 AM, said:

So you do care for the team by taking AMS with you, even if its just for that time untill you find a better use of it. Some others like the OP doesnt, coming into the Forum and whining about Lights/Mediums that carry NARC and Tag and then Kill him with all these Overpowered LRM5´s or maybe LRM10´s voleys......to stay on Topic...

I came to the conclusion that AMS is barely helpful after making the described experiences and that it is more valuable to the Team to increase the lethality of my Mech - if it is that what you mean we agree.

Edited by Thorqemada, 14 April 2014 - 04:29 AM.

[Zerberoff]

Rex, now for real. We talking about a Medium build that is able to keep up against the DD-JJ-Meta! You cant be seriouse that you now want to nerv it. Im sure you dont want to force Mediums into a "Face to Face" duel against a Dual AC5-PPC Meta Catafract, or an 3x AC5 Jaeger, do you? And Lights never have enought weight to be a seriouse threat with LRM´s.

[Prezimonto]

El Bandito, on 14 April 2014 - 02:26 AM, said:

I am tired of schooling LRM haters for months so I'll make it brief.

1. Current ECM will make LRM and SSRM (both canon BT weapons) completely useless, if all mechs can carry it. Are you dumb enough to suggest PGI to trash a whole weapon system for the sake of those who do not know the basic of MWO?

2. Without indirect fire, there is no reason EVER to bring LRMs. ACs and PPCs will do the LOS fire job much better. A competitive game should keep competitive level standards, and LRMs are almost never used in competitive level play.

1. Exacly correct. ECM completely removes the ability to lock a target, making LRM's an exceptionally poor weapon. If we could pick exactly what piece of ground they were going to fly to, including over hills (ie... set the range and declesion of the launchers) and turned them into crappy artillery that had to take into account mech movement to hit a target... THEN I'd be okay with them, but they'd be totally different weapons and much more aiming based.

2. They'd still lose out to direct fired weapons when you have line of sight. They spread their damage, they have a direct counter in AMS, they have a direct counter with missile warning, and they have a direct counter with ECM. What more do you honestly want? LRM's are really only useful with team work. If you NEED LoS they're pointless.

So as usual:

Team work is OP, nerf Team work!


Edit:

Actually the more I think about it, the more I like the idea of LRM's being mini-artillery. Not World of Tanks style, but with the ability to guide the missiles by sight into a target, and have a button set (like I,J,K,L) that lets you tweak the exact landing point of the missiles. So you can guide them back over a hill and left or right to follow a mech that's broken LoS. Keep the spread pretty bad in this mode. Then the cry's of "skillless" system would end. TAG/NARC then become a method of keeping a dot on the enemy rather than a pure lock, and they allow the missile spread to tighten up.

So you aim, the missiles get a cross/circle on the ground representing where they're land and their spread. based on where you're aiming. you can use I,J,K,L to shift that cross hair's relative position to your aim point. So it's indirect aim, through a direct aiming process. A REALLY good LRM user would learn tricks to aim far, and pull back to fire over steeper hills. But I'd also limit LRM's tracking, so that can't ever turn more than about 30° (no shooting past a target and pulling them in yo-yo style).

Edited by Prezimonto, 14 April 2014 - 04:49 AM.

[Bobzilla]

What would you limit tag/narc to? The mechs that carry missles, or scouts? If you limit tag/narc to scouts, no missle carriers will take LRMs unless in a premade, if you limit it to certain missle carriers the other missle dependent chassis will collect dust and it takes away from the scouting role. I would say tag/narc is already limited due to the fact they take up hardpoints.

[Jack Spade Ward]

I agree, ECM mechs are exclusive, so should be mechs with NARC / TAG.

[Wildstreak]

I am a Medium LRM Boat driver among my other Medium Mechs.
Hunchback-4J
Griffin-1S
Both carry twin LRM10s, 3MLs, TAG, one has BAP.
I have a speed advantage to avoid fire while shooting missiles from a distance.
While I have used Indirect Fire, I prefer TAGging especially Mechs under ECM cover not only to fire at but it lets team members know where an enemy is.
So I prefer being between 400-750m away from the target.
There is skill involved in driving 80-90 kph (depending if speed tweak is on) while maintaining TAG and firing to ensure my 900 missiles get maximum use.
These are not no skill Mechs to drive.

LRMs are not the only Support Weapon in the game.
Long range PPCs & ACs are Support Weapons despite the need for aim.
I had an Awesome-8Q using nothing but 2PPCs & 2LLs, when I can scare off any Mechs with nothing but 2PPCs at range as much as I did, PPCs are not that skilled compared to LRMs.

The whole, "LRMs are No Skill Support Weapons," argument is DEAD.

[Lyoto Machida]

Rex Budman, on 14 April 2014 - 02:33 AM, said:

So in order to make it viable it should be completely unbalanced and a hinderance on everyone elses game play?

BTW see the Veteran Founder tag?

It's embarrassing that you have a Founder tag when you clearly haven't learned to play the game in two years. Or maybe it's just a testament to your stubbornness.

Ever wonder why your threads keep disappearing???