23 replies to this topic

[Roachbugg]

I have tried several min max fotm builds on mechs like the highlander and i find them damn near useless i don't know what it is it just does not fit my playstyle i guess i've tried to do it i find myself bored to tears wanting to rip my hair out and never play the game again. I only have luck with pure brawl builds or with mixed loadouts not too dissimilar to how most mech come stock.

So there is the question does playing to the meta make anyone elses gaming experience worse?

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Roachbugg, on 09 April 2014 - 03:42 AM, said:

I have tried several min max fotm builds on mechs like the highlander and i find them damn near useless i don't know what it is it just does not fit my playstyle i guess i've tried to do it i find myself bored to tears wanting to rip my hair out and never play the game again. I only have luck with pure brawl builds or with mixed loadouts not too dissimilar to how most mech come stock.

So there is the question does playing to the meta make anyone elses gaming experience worse?

They take a little practice, not quite as "no skill required" as some people would claim. It also helps to have a buddy or two doing the same thing. A single poptart isn't too bad but they seem to get exponentially stronger when grouped, possibly because it becomes much easier to suppress targets at that point.

I never run them myself, I do ok in them but it does get a little boring.

[DaZur]

Meta builds are not magic win buttons...

Meta builds represent the distilled essence of whatever constitutes the most powerful weapon / build composites. That said... They still need to be piloted with some semblance of proficiency, not even taking into consideration that each meta-build has their unique play-styles associated with them.

In short... Practice a little more with it and become comfortable with the design and or re-evaluate how you are using it to be sure you are operating it within it's optimal perimeters.

Edit: To answer your question... My preferred play-style makes most meta-builds nigh useless in my hands.

Edited by DaZur, 09 April 2014 - 05:31 AM.

[BourbonFaucet]

Despite my quote, the above posters are right, usually one poptart is not going to sway an entire match, it takes a crowd of them to cause trouble. That being said, with practice it's effective, and one poptart per team seems about fair.

[Daekar]

The meta can work for you, but you have to understand an execute the postioning and maneuvers that make the FLD and short on-target time so effective. I'm still getting the hang of it, but I can say that I get more kills with less damage in my meta builds. 2xAC5 and 2xPPC work well even in a Protector.

[Bishop Steiner]

Rouken, on 09 April 2014 - 04:58 AM, said:

They take a little practice, not quite as "no skill required" as some people would claim. It also helps to have a buddy or two doing the same thing. A single poptart isn't too bad but they seem to get exponentially stronger when grouped, possibly because it becomes much easier to suppress targets at that point.

I never run them myself, I do ok in them but it does get a little boring.

No skill?


Nope, just less skill. (In general) The whole concept of MEta is quite simply, maximum reward for minimum risk, or "most efficient" way to succeed. In other words, less skill is needed to be (more) successful (than not), whereas no meta builds CAN work, but you really got to work your butt off to compensate, generally.

Pilot skill still is always a factor, but a mediocre pilot in a Poptart will usually perform better than same pilot in a brawler. (Of course, if we had a brawling Meta, that would likely be reversed. Though traditional Poptarting is always a relatively low learning curve)

Meta, as others have stated is not a magic win button (unless a game is waaaaaaaaaaay unbalanced). It's just the distilled, most efficient way to be more effective than ineffective. Or the easiest way in a game to be above 50/50.

You start betting to way positive skewed win and kill percentages (75%w/25%l for instance) , that is still a measure of skill (or in MWO, oftentimes pre-made coordination, which is usually even more powerful than any amount of skill, on it's own).. That said, a person who achieves X stats in a Meta build, compared to a person who achieves X stats in a non-Meta, is almost always the less skilled of the two.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 09 April 2014 - 06:31 AM.

[Roachbugg]

I dunno i really love those 1k damge games in my Atas i own all five of em lol

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Bishop Steiner, on 09 April 2014 - 06:27 AM, said:

No skill?

Negative. I said "...not quite as 'no skill required' as some people would claim." Which would imply that some skill is required.

The meta is smart, though. I combines the best way of dealing damage with the best way of avoiding damage. Just need a little practice at aiming while falling and some experience to know which rocks are the best to stand behind.

[Trauglodyte]

I think that a lot of people get the current "meta" confused. Currently, weapons are divided between spread (beams and projectiles [LBs and missiles]) and front loaded instant damage. In terms of missiles, you're never going to get all of your damage in one or two locations; LRMs are possible if you keep TAG on your target, Artemis IV is equipped, you're using a small-ish launcher (10), and there is no ECM in question. That essentially leaves us with laser based weapons and PPCs/ACs. Each has its issues and benefits: beam weapons require the "skill" to keep the entire beam in one location adjusting for your own movements and that of your target while PPCs/ACs require you to lead based on your target's range and speed. The reason that the later is the meta is because it is much easier work within the confinements of the game to put all of your damage in one spot and there is NO risk of wasting damage in other locations if your aim is sound. Furthermore, you have a much better defensive option because you can fire and then twist away to avoid incoming damage.

Something else is the fact that the primary beam using platforms are small, extremely fast, agile, and JJ based (mostly). These mechs are also normally very weight restricted which makes beam weapons the better option. Being able to get in, pop shot, and get out makes for a more attractive "meta" to these mechs. Conversely, a Cataphract 3D would be a piss poor poptarting meta with nothing but Lrg Lasers.

[Fang01]

I tried a heavy metal in pts and couldn't do a blasted thing with it. Would have completely abandoned the concept but got to playing mw1 the other day and started wondering about slapping together a Marauder clone. Poked around my bay and decided that the flame would be the best fit. Never intended to drop live with it but got cajoled by teammates. In two drops I killed 11, including two fast mediums that should have had my number.

I doubt I'll be putting it back to ac20 4med

[XX Sulla XX]

The meta pop tarts work fine. But they do bore me to tears also. So I choose not to run them and run something with a high alpha,, jump jets and more speed instead that is close range only. Tricky to get 100% out of it but fun when you do.

[Escef]

I generally build my mechs to get results. If they happen to fit in the meta well, ok, they happen to fit in the meta. I'd been running twin AC5 and twin LL on my K2 for a while before the AC5 became meta. (I recall me and Bishop comparing design notes on the forums a couple times, he was the one that convinced me that dropping an XL in the SOB was worth trying, and I'm glad he did. I just wish I'd tried it sooner than I did.)

Edited by Escef, 09 April 2014 - 10:48 AM.

[Monky]

I'm most accurate with AC10's, for instance, and can peg laterally moving lights at distance with them. My AC5's however I can only seem to reliably hit slower moving targets. It's an odd situation but unless I'm rolling hard against assaults and heavies I actually prefer an AC10 as my general purpose mid range ballistic.

[Ngamok]

Using meta pop tart builds requires some practice, patience, and aiming. You have to get used to jumping and aiming the weapons at an enemy and knowing when to release the jump jets and then fire your shot. You also need to be patient to know when you can do it to cool off and to let your enemy get into a position where he can be vulnerable to you shooting him.

[Lord Perversor]

And the joy of find you lackluster non meta mech (oftenly meds or lousy Heavies like QKD or Dragons) been paired with the Uber lords of Meta land match after match!!!

[Nicholas Carlyle]

I don't find the meta fun, which leads to me playing stupidly when I try to do it.

It's not a skill thing. It's more of an ADD thing.

It's actually a major issue whenever I play assault mechs. Being more of a medium pilot, I just get bored to no end.

[3rdworld]

If you aren't a good shot, using pinpoint only damage weapons will result in you being a waste of tonnage.

[Reported for Inappropriate Name]

Roachbugg, on 09 April 2014 - 03:42 AM, said:

I have tried several min max fotm builds on mechs like the highlander and i find them damn near useless i don't know what it is it just does not fit my playstyle i guess i've tried to do it i find myself bored to tears wanting to rip my hair out and never play the game again. I only have luck with pure brawl builds or with mixed loadouts not too dissimilar to how most mech come stock.

So there is the question does playing to the meta make anyone elses gaming experience worse?

learn to aim

[Modo44]

This is a matter of some talent and lots of practice. Not "I copied a build and set up weapon groups" practice, but many hours of playing to deeply learn the game. Arriving on "the current meta" happens after finding out and training with all the basic and advanced techniques of positioning, shielding, shooting, etc. in MWO. Meta builds are optimized with the assumption that the player knows and applies all of those techniques. This means literally thousands of matches.That is why skilled pilots can tear meta builds apart with apparent ease, but also get creamed when they meet competitive players running the exact same setups.

[Takashi Uchida]

Individual poptart builds are not any more difficult to deal with than most other builds. A lot of the"z0mg jumpsnipe poptart OP" comes from say, a 4 Victor/Highlander pre-arranged lance calling targets and focusing down your pug-allies quickly. Just think about it: 120 pts (more if UAC) worth of precision long-range damage is going to quickly shred a lance of players who don't know any better. You may find yourself in a 0-6 hole before they even get to you (usually what happens to me when go up against the ggclose-type jokers).

I am by no means the best shot in the game. I play on pretty low res too. But I've made it work for me in PUGs (the regulars I drop with aren't fans of min/maxing, so we're never going to require everyone to mount AC5/PPC builds). If you want to get better at jumpsniping, go to the testing grounds and work on your aim (I know it's of limited use because the targets don't move). Some of the ruder players are going to tell you "le3rn to play/aim NOOB uninstall nao." They are being a-holes but it is a big part of this style of play. A good general knowledge of game mechanics also helps too, regardless of your role type. If you have trouble with poptarting as a Highlander, consider a Victor or Cataphract-3D. They can move a lot faster in exchange for less armor. Advanced zoom and seismic sensor will also benefit you if you can afford them.

My advice is to try as many different roles and mechs as you can afford or have time to. If you don't like a certain kind, nobody is making you do it. If you have fun running brawlers, then run brawlers. You'll just have to accept that that is not the most optimal way to win at present.

Edited by Takashi Uchida, 16 April 2014 - 08:24 PM.