64 replies to this topic

[MisterPlanetarian]

Triordinant, on 15 April 2014 - 05:05 AM, said:

We're already paying a range penalty as well.

It's that but I'd want lower cycle time for pulse lasers to better compete with Autocannons up close. Keep the heat on the same levels as regular beam lasers, this will force pulse laser users to rely on better trigger discipline.

[Undecided]

Joseph Mallan, on 15 April 2014 - 04:10 AM, said:

Never been a fan of the IS versions. I like killing at range more than in my face. But for in close... they need that +2 to targeting for the weight they add.

Technically it's -2 for the "to hit" roll, but yeah the sharply decreased range means the negative range modifiers often cancel out some or all of the accuracy benefit on IS pulses in Battletech. MWO pulses suffer a similar problem as the damage drop-off at range means that they often don't do their full damage given how short the ranges are. That's likely the reason why people are reporting similar percentage of damage done between the standard beams and pulses. The decreased range means they are more often firing beyond the effective range, reducing their damage done per shot, even if they keep the beam on target a greater percentage of their shots.

Now CLAN pulse lasers on the other hand have double the range of the IS pulses making them fire even further than IS standard lasers. There's a reason the clan LPL is one of my favorite weapons in Battletech.

[Ultimax]

How I feel about Pulse Lasers depends on the Pulse Laser - each weight class of Pulse Lasers compare differently vs. standard Lasers than the other weights do.

Sorry for the "OMFG HUGE" image.






Small Pulse Lasers:

These are a decent damage/DPS boost, on an already economical weapon.

They keep the 90m range, the same as SLAS, and their DPS compares favorably vs. MLAS while having lower HPS.

If you think you can consistently play at 90m, or you are only taking them as a backup weapon you might consider them in the place of MLAS - or if you have the spare tonnage on a light mech and you were going to take SLAS anyway, they are a decent choice due to less time needed on target.



Medium Pulse Lasers:

I think MPLs make out the worst, they have too many drawbacks.

Their HPS is the highest percentage increase in the pulse laser family, but their corresponding Damage and DPS numbers aren't nearly as significant.

They weigh double their standard counterparts, and they lose range.

So to recap:

Very hot
Double Weight
Shorter Range


Large Pulse Lasers:

Large Pulse Lasers, imo, actually fare the best when compared to other Pulse Lasers.

They have the lowest added weight percentage wise, where SPL & MPLs are double their standard counterparts.

Their damage and dps increases are very good considering the slight extra heat they generate.

Even their range remains decent at 350m, a fair trade off for a shorter beam duration and higher recycle time (imo).


And lastly, they deal as much damage as an AC 10 or PPC, with a faster recycle than PPCs but a longer recycle compared to AC 10 (AC 10 also weighs an extra 5 tons and requires ammo to boot - so fair imo).



The main issue with LPLs is that while overall they compare very favorably, they are still a 7 ton weapon.

Once you are in the 7 ton range, you are competing for tonnage with PPC/ER PPC or even an ER LLAS + 2x Extra DHS. (Although their heat & HPS compared to PPC/ER PPC is actually very good).





What I'd like to see:

Increase SPL damage to 3.6 from 3.4

Decrease MPL weight to 1.5 tons, reduce heat to 4.5 per shot down from 5.

Decrease LPL weight to 6 tons.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 15 April 2014 - 05:23 AM.

[Bobzilla]

Pulse lasers get shots off faster at higher damage. Seeing as no energy weapons can do sustained DPS due to heat in this game, they are only good for a quick exchange doing max damage in the shortest period of time. Also when an enemy makes it close to you, it's usually a light or damaged mech, and in both cases you want that fastest pinpontiest (?) damage.

Due to those factors coupled with lasers being easily outperformed at range by other systems, pulse lasers are better than regular lasers in my opinion. If you want range take ballistics, missles or PPCs.

[TercieI]

SPL&LPL are highly specialized and only good choices on a few builds.

MPL are DOA.

IMO, of course.

Edited by Terciel1976, 15 April 2014 - 05:24 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

MisterPlanetarian, on 15 April 2014 - 04:49 AM, said:

I'd leave them where they are now but lower their cooldown a bit. two tons is a pretty big tax to pay for shorter range and burntime. I always envisioned them as skirmish oriented, accurate at close range with higher DPS than large lasers and PPC's but far higher heat per second as a penalty without affecting heat per shot too much.

I like this. The one mech I currently and consistently run MPL on is my YLW. And that .4 second or whatever it is duration in beam duration is the difference in keeping my AC20 or losing it, as a fast skirmisher.

ATM they are too situational. LPL ain't bad, but I agree with Carrion that they also don't need the heat tax.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

PGI really can't do much to pulse lasers without making them stupidly OP. Instead they just function stupidly.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

I don't understand why people compare the LPL to a Large Laser.

You have to compare it to the PPC.

And it stinks compared to the PPC due to the massive range difference and FLD.

[MisterPlanetarian]

So give it the same heat as a large laser and lower it's cycle time. That way the PPC user will get shredded once the fight moves up close.

[jper4]

i tend to use pulse lasers on my faster mechs because the less time i need to spend shooting at the target while zooming past it the better given my aim or lack of it. i tend to find it annoying when my ML does 1 pt of damage to 5 different parts of the enemy mech because i'm going by too fast to hold the location i originally aimed for. once the mechs get slower then the pulses turn to regular lasers. if i only have 1 or 2 energy slots i might toss a MPL on it since with 1-2 lasers heat isn't going to be an issue. other than the Hunchy 4P though my SPLs go with my lights only, MPLs on some of my lights/mediums.

did mess around with the LPLs a bit but atm the only mech i have them in atm is my Jager-DD. not really enough room in most mediums/lights to fit them in for me vs using something else.

[Ultimax]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 15 April 2014 - 05:34 AM, said:

I don't understand why people compare the LPL to a Large Laser.

You have to compare it to the PPC.

And it stinks compared to the PPC due to the massive range difference and FLD.

It's compared to the laser because that is clearly the baseline performance, as it is for all pulse lasers.

My analysis also included the tonnage comparison vs. PPCs.


The PPC is the better weapon overall, but if you are at close range the LPL is superior. It's just that getting into, and remaining in close range (brawling) is risky prospect.


So the LPL is a short/medium range specialty weapon, it has a better recycle time than the PPC, it has no minimum range, it has lower heat per shot and lower heat per second generated.


So it's a niche use weapon, but the stats are all derived from the Large Laser.

[MeiSooHaityu]

If I have the additional tonnage and my cooling is looking good, I will run LPLs or MPLs. Normally though, the standard laser wins out.

When it comes to the range, I can excuse that a bit. LPLasers and MLasers have about the same range, so they work well together IMO. If you can manage that heat enough to maintain good DPS, then I think that is a great combo.

[Bobzilla]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 15 April 2014 - 05:34 AM, said:

I don't understand why people compare the LPL to a Large Laser.

You have to compare it to the PPC.

And it stinks compared to the PPC due to the massive range difference and FLD.

I'd compare the LPL to the AC/20. But 2xLPL. Similar weights, alpha damage, range and RoF.
The difference is you can only use the 2 LPL a couple times befor you over heat and they aren't as pinpoint. But you save some slots and aren't ammo dependant.

[Bishop Steiner]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 15 April 2014 - 05:34 AM, said:

I don't understand why people compare the LPL to a Large Laser.

You have to compare it to the PPC.

And it stinks compared to the PPC due to the massive range difference and FLD.

disagree.

Try using a PPC to brawl. Especially under 90 meters. LPL dues more damage, for significantly less heat and faster cooldown. And HALF the heat of an ER PPC.

I do agree the range issue makes them less desirable in most situations, but to say they "stink" seems to be quite hyperbolic.

[Bilbo]

I've pulled the LPL's back off my Atlases (Ran them for around 450 matches). I prefer them over LL in a brawl because they recycle quicker but that also makes them just a little too hot so sustained fire is almost impossible.

[Sudden Reversal]

I would like to see Pulse Lasers as a hold down and continuous fire mechanic.

High Heat and constant front facing would be the balancing factors, but at least pulse will have a differentiating factor to them besides just being craptastic in comparison to everything else.

They are after all, machine gun lasers.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Ultimatum X, on 15 April 2014 - 05:46 AM, said:

It's compared to the laser because that is clearly the baseline performance, as it is for all pulse lasers.

My analysis also included the tonnage comparison vs. PPCs.


The PPC is the better weapon overall, but if you are at close range the LPL is superior. It's just that getting into, and remaining in close range (brawling) is risky prospect.


So the LPL is a short/medium range specialty weapon, it has a better recycle time than the PPC, it has no minimum range, it has lower heat per shot and lower heat per second generated.


So it's a niche use weapon, but the stats are all derived from the Large Laser.

Doesn't matter where the stats are derived from. It's the tonnage that matters.

When I create a mech, I never think "Hmm, Large Pulser Laser...which is derived from the Large Laser...which do I go with?".

I think "Hmm, I have an energy slot and 7 tons available. I am not limited by free slots....so that means either a Large Pulse Laser which, really is only definitely better at sub 90m, but beyond that it's very debatable whether it's better at close range, or a PPC which is pretty much one of the ultimate weapons currently in the game".

The only time the LPL EVER wins that, is when I'm purposely trying to stay away from PPC's because I absolutely hate the meta as it's become.

Bishop Steiner, on 15 April 2014 - 05:49 AM, said:

disagree.

Try using a PPC to brawl. Especially under 90 meters. LPL dues more damage, for significantly less heat and faster cooldown. And HALF the heat of an ER PPC.

I do agree the range issue makes them less desirable in most situations, but to say they "stink" seems to be quite hyperbolic.

No one is bringing up the ER PPC, so that whole "half the heat" thing is more hyperbolic than my "stinks" comment.

The problem is, you account for the LPL being some what better in a brawl, while ignoring the fact that by the time the brawl happens, you have pumped out a ton of damage at range with the PPC.

The PPC is meta, the LPL is a decision you make when you are bored of the PPC.

[Ultimax]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 15 April 2014 - 06:03 AM, said:

Doesn't matter where the stats are derived from. It's the tonnage that matters.

When I create a mech, I never think "Hmm, Large Pulser Laser...which is derived from the Large Laser...which do I go with?".

I think "Hmm, I have an energy slot and 7 tons available. I am not limited by free slots....so that means either a Large Pulse Laser which, really is only definitely better at sub 90m, but beyond that it's very debatable whether it's better at close range, or a PPC which is pretty much one of the ultimate weapons currently in the game".

The only time the LPL EVER wins that, is when I'm purposely trying to stay away from PPC's because I absolutely hate the meta as it's become.



No one is bringing up the ER PPC, so that whole "half the heat" thing is more hyperbolic than my "stinks" comment.

The problem is, you account for the LPL being some what better in a brawl, while ignoring the fact that by the time the brawl happens, you have pumped out a ton of damage at range with the PPC.

The PPC is meta, the LPL is a decision you make when you are bored of the PPC.

Did you actually read my entire 1st post in this thread, or do you just aggressively post without fully reading or comprehending what other people write?

I'm serious, because I've already covered everything you said in my first post.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 15 April 2014 - 06:06 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Ultimatum X, on 15 April 2014 - 06:05 AM, said:

Did you actually read my entire 1st post in this thread, or do you just aggressively post without fully reading or comprehending what other people write?

I'm serious, because I've already covered everything you said in my first post.

Nope, I don't read huge ass posts that PGI will never read. Get succinct or I don't bother.

Did I ever quote your post to make you think I read it by the way? Honestly I skip over most everything you post now either way.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 15 April 2014 - 06:11 AM.

[East Indy]

Accuracy stats don't account for pinpoint damage, which is where pulses excel.

They're not meant as upgrades or interchangeable substitutes; usually, you'll want speed; sometimes, as Bishop said, more tons than slots; and I find them more effective as the basis for a design (pursuit, striker).