29 replies to this topic

[SethAbercromby]

ShinVector, on 16 April 2014 - 07:57 PM, said:

Maybe... Just maybe.. This would have been less of a problem if mechs didn't get free C3.
Lastly.. UAC5 is kinda of a bad build. I prefer dual gauss myself.

I've seen a dual UAC5 Jager with backup Medium Lasers tear its targets apart. It doesn't have the devastating damage of gauss pinpoints but it won't run out of ammo after 3 enemies

[Erik Hollister]

Ovion, on 15 April 2014 - 05:00 PM, said:

What...
I run 2 main LRM boats, an LRM40 and an LRM30.
LRM40 has a potential damage of 44. But with the hit rate of LRMs only being around the 1/3 mark, that's really 15 per shot.
LRM30 has a potential damage of 33. But with the hit rate of LRMs only being around the 1/3 mark, that's really 11 per shot.
At 180 missiles per ton, that's 4.5 shots for the 40, and 6 for the 50, with a potential damage per ton of 198, but a realistic damage of 66.
Furthermore, that's spread across the entire enemy mech, so not pinpoint.
You're looking at least 1-2 full tons to kill a mech, usually more.

Both carry 8-9 tons of ammo, for 36-44 shots.

Getting 2 shots per ton is utterly ridiculous.
A potential damage of 66-88, and a realistic damage of 22-30 per ton of ammo....
The above 8-9 tons providing 16-18 shots....

And of course it remains, there's plenty of counters to LRMs (Cover, Lateral movement, speed, ECM, shutting down, being underwater, AMS), and it's the only weapon where you get warned that it's shooting at you, enabling you to enact those counters.


An equivalent weight of weapon, in a pair of AC10s (for a long range AC20) gets 15 rounds per ton, does 20 damage per shot and get 7.5 shots per ton.
So that's a potential of 150 per ton. Accuracy for these however, is closer to 2/3, so you're looking at around 10 damage per ton, which is also focused where you hit it.
With 8T of ammo, that's 60 shots of AC20, with a potential damage of 1200 and a realistic damage of 800.


And of course, if both mechs shot at one of my locusts, and it stood perfectly still to oblige them, they need to do 32 damage to the CT to kill it.

That's 2 shots of AC20, or 4-5 shots of LRM30/40.

So you could kill 3.75 Locusts a ton with twin-AC10s.
Or 1.1-1.2 Locusts a ton with LRM30-40s.

Your way takes 2-3 Tons of LRM fire to kill the weakest mech in the game.
Twin AC10s still only need 0.26 of a Ton.

Nice math, bro.

Of course, it seems to take some things for granted and COMPLETELY leaves out other facts.

Whats the range on those AC20s? And the range on your LRMs? So with the complete lack of adequate cover available on many maps, how many volleys of LRMs can your boat get off before that twin AC20 boat gets in range to pull the trigger? How many before he gets within optimal range of his 20s?
Oh, you forgot to mention that.

You claim that the hit rate of ACs is 66%. Where did you get that stat? You see, unlike your LRMs, a pilot shooting ACs has to actually aim. The computer doesn't aim for you. So, unless you are privy to some study that has been performed that shows this success rate, I think I'll just have to call BS on that one.

If other weapons are so equal to LRMs... why don't we see teams of mechs boating those weapons en masse like we do LRMs?

Try to justify your LRM-lust, I really don't care. I just DL'd the patch in hopes of seeing that PGI actually worked towards fixing the LRMs. Instead, they decided to nerf ACs. Good job, PGI. At least you are listening to the "new money" that couldn't hack playing without super-lurms.

Peace out.

[SethAbercromby]

Erik Hollister, on 16 April 2014 - 08:19 PM, said:

If other weapons are so equal to LRMs... why don't we see teams of mechs boating those weapons en masse like we do LRMs?

Have you been living under a rock? Laserboat Hunchies, twin Gauss/Ac20 Jagers, hexa PPC Stalkers, the list goes on and on and on. Different weapons boat differently. Running 2 Ac20 might not seem like much at first glance but those 30 pinpoint damage will probably make you reconsider pretty fast. Just because you've been looking at LRMs with tunnel vision, all those boats don't just magically disappear from the Meta, which LRMs, truth be told aren't really that much of a part of. People run them but unless they run with a group, they are not that much more effective than non-meta builds. And if you are running a group, a PPC/Ac5 meta group would still curb stomp the enemy team faster than a LRM boat centered premade.

[HantuDuppy]

I have an idea; NARC works for both teams, right? How about if we start carrying NARC, and if we see anyone LRM boating on our team, we tag them to share the 'joy' of LRM with them. If they get hit by enemy missiles, then I guess it's their own fault for not 'using cover effectively'. They rarely have the pleasure of getting spotted. All they do is hide behind cover, so it's no surprise that they don't have empathy for those of us who can't spend the entire match hiding behind the rest of the team. I have no idea why they think that those hiding in the rear are as deserving of kills as those on the front line, but that isn't even the problem. The real problem is that LRM aren't fun. This isn't a 1 v 1 weapon. It's often 3 or more v 1 weapon. It's not fun to get blasted away by several hidden mechs just because one enemy spotted you. It's not fun to take hits without being able to return them.

The weapon wouldn't be so bad if it was more utility damage rather than hit-point damage. By utility damage, I mean the impact shaking and blinding explosions. They reduced the utility damage in the last patch, but what they should have done was reduced the hit-point damage. I think this would be a solution to the un-fun situation of getting pounded to death by unseen assailants. Getting blind and having your aim thrown off by multiple volleys wouldn't be much worse than getting hit by one volley – it would bring back enjoyment to gameplay while still providing LRM with the usefulness of helping the front lines gain an edge in battle. It’s not that I don’t want LRM to be useful – it’s just that in their current state, they are not enjoyable to play against.

[Cest7]

LRMs are good. No changes needed

[Ovion]

Erik Hollister, on 16 April 2014 - 08:19 PM, said:

Nice math, bro.

Of course, it seems to take some things for granted and COMPLETELY leaves out other facts.

Whats the range on those AC20s? And the range on your LRMs? So with the complete lack of adequate cover available on many maps, how many volleys of LRMs can your boat get off before that twin AC20 boat gets in range to pull the trigger? How many before he gets within optimal range of his 20s?
Oh, you forgot to mention that.

You claim that the hit rate of ACs is 66%. Where did you get that stat? You see, unlike your LRMs, a pilot shooting ACs has to actually aim. The computer doesn't aim for you. So, unless you are privy to some study that has been performed that shows this success rate, I think I'll just have to call BS on that one.

If other weapons are so equal to LRMs... why don't we see teams of mechs boating those weapons en masse like we do LRMs?

Try to justify your LRM-lust, I really don't care. I just DL'd the patch in hopes of seeing that PGI actually worked towards fixing the LRMs. Instead, they decided to nerf ACs. Good job, PGI. At least you are listening to the "new money" that couldn't hack playing without super-lurms.

Peace out.

Twin-AC10 (AC20) that I was using, has an optimum range of 450 and a max range of 1350.
A standard AC20 is 270/810. (And if you happen to be using 4 AC5s you get 620/1700)
LRMs have a min range of 180, and a max range of 1000.

I claim the hit rate of 66% (2/3 of the time), based on my own rates, and those posted by other people who were discussing this a while ago.

Average accuracy seems to be around 60-70% for people using ACs from what I gathered.
But even at say, 50%, or an equivalent 30%, that only max doubles the amount of ammo needed, to 0.52T of AC ammo needed to kill a Locust.

Hell, using my Twin-PPC K2, (Also 20 damage, min range 90, optimum 540, max 1080), I've died to LRM fire.. 2-3 times in the last month or two, and I've hunted LRM boats with it.
Died to ACs, PPCs and lasers a ton in it though.

AND
The ammount of 2+ LL / 2AC20 / 2AC10 / 3+ AC5 / mass ML / 2-3 Gauss boats I've seen....

Regardless, the point is, LRMs already weigh more than any other weapon type (equiv weight to damage), take 3-5 times more ammo to secure the kill, and require you to get and hold a target lock (for 2-7 seconds) to shoot the target at all.

This does not need a nerf.

SethAbercromby, on 16 April 2014 - 08:54 PM, said:

Running 2 Ac20 might not seem like much at first glance but those 30 pinpoint damage will probably make you reconsider pretty fast.

2 AC20 is 40 damage.

Edited by Ovion, 17 April 2014 - 05:10 AM.

[SleekHusky]

SethAbercromby, on 16 April 2014 - 08:54 PM, said:

Have you been living under a rock? Laserboat Hunchies, twin Gauss/Ac20 Jagers, hexa PPC Stalkers, the list goes on and on and on. Different weapons boat differently. Running 2 Ac20 might not seem like much at first glance but those 30 pinpoint damage will probably make you reconsider pretty fast. Just because you've been looking at LRMs with tunnel vision, all those boats don't just magically disappear from the Meta, which LRMs, truth be told aren't really that much of a part of. People run them but unless they run with a group, they are not that much more effective than non-meta builds. And if you are running a group, a PPC/Ac5 meta group would still curb stomp the enemy team faster than a LRM boat centered premade.

Other than the Twin Gauss Jagers, most of those boats take a lot of skill or are inefficient to run. Meanwhile LRMs are just lock and fire away with minimal skill required, all you need is a spotter, and knowledge of the max range and the enemy to be in an open area, which there is a lot of on most maps. I know for a it is easymode to use LRMs now considering 90% of the time I used an LRM boat its an easy get many kills or do lots of damage and win the game. The only big counter is if the target has ECM or ECM cover but without that they are just another easy kill. This current meta basically means the team NEEDS ECM or LRM boats to win, if one team lacks both its already a loss in most cases.

[SethAbercromby]

Sleek34, on 17 April 2014 - 06:49 AM, said:

This current meta basically means the team NEEDS ECM or LRM boats to win, if one team lacks both its already a loss in most cases.

The Meta NEEDS ECM because it's so overpowered (overpowered in combining the benefits of 4 TT upgrades for a fraction of the costs) right now. LRMs are NEEDED because they are valuable assets to the team effort. Just 4-5 Players running LRM20s with 2-3 tons of ammo as secondary weapons can make a huge difference on the battlefield. Boats just take the suppressive fire aspect of LRMs to the logical extreme for maximum effectiveness, just as dual AC20 take pinpoint to the logical extreme for maximum damage.

[SleekHusky]

SethAbercromby, on 17 April 2014 - 07:08 AM, said:

The Meta NEEDS ECM because it's so overpowered (overpowered in combining the benefits of 4 TT upgrades for a fraction of the costs) right now. LRMs are NEEDED because they are valuable assets to the team effort. Just 4-5 Players running LRM20s with 2-3 tons of ammo as secondary weapons can make a huge difference on the battlefield. Boats just take the suppressive fire aspect of LRMs to the logical extreme for maximum effectiveness, just as dual AC20 take pinpoint to the logical extreme for maximum damage.

This is what I see as the big problem being LRMs are practically nullified by ECM however without ECM LRMs become extremely overpowered. I personally think they need to stop "nerfing" op metas by making something else overpowered. I think teams should be able to win without needing certain types of equipment/weapons.

[Josef Koba]

Everyone has their favorite weapons, which means they usually think those weapons should perform better than any of the other categories of weapons. This is why you see the dismissive statements like "learn to move better" or "there are the guided weapon dependent type" or what have you. I don't have a favorite and use them all as the whim dictates. Personally I think that, with few exceptions, balance has come a long, long way. Sure, no one likes it when they're stun locked by LRM5 TrollCats or pounded by so many LRMs that they blot out the sun. So I can see why people would want the LRM to be degraded in capability somewhat. PGI went a bit overboard with the speed buff last month, but have toned it down. Is it right? I don't know. But I don't think that decreasing the amount of ammo per ton is the answer. If that's what we want then I think we should drop the amount per ton for ALL systems. And then increase heat on energy weapons so that they aren't then too powerful by comparison.

Obviously I'm being facetious. But I'm serious when I say that reducing LRM ammo per ton is the wrong move.

It's crappy being on the receiving end of a well coordinated team using LRM boats. But it is what it is. I love hunting down boaters in the rear and waxing them. It's their fault if they don't have a balanced load out. Why would I WANT to force them through some arbitrary ammo reduction to have a balanced load out? If they're unbalanced, I can use that to my advantage. I'm happy to face a six PPC Stalker. Boat 'em away! When I boat missiles, unless it's the CPLT-A1 (even with that you can load up on SSRMs), I have nice surprises for guys wanting to get close. There are loadouts that balance combat endurance in LRMs and back up weapons. My Battlemaster has 2 x LRM15As, 2 x LRM10As, three med lasers and a tag and plenty of ammo for a long match. Some games it destroys people; other games I can't do jack. OPFOR likes to use countermeasures, whether ECM or good cover and concealment. That's great stuff. I'm just not convinced that these radical suggestions meant to 'balance' the game really do balance the game. People just want to buff their favorite toys while nerfing anything they don't think should be good. That's crazy.