20 replies to this topic

[Arc Viper]

Patch after patch, I hope and hope for some kind of change that makes the flamer useless. After seeing a video of a guy taking a stalker out in trials with one flamer, and killing himself from overheat damage before destroying one mech, we all know this is a highly useless weapon.

Why ignore it? So much time has been invested in its cool effects and it's cool sound, but it's useless. Completely useless. Why, PGI? Why?

Edited by Arc Viper, 16 April 2014 - 07:08 AM.

[Dark Aura]

Hopefully because Paul is working on CW, and only implements one random buff/nerf per patch, to give you something to complain about while we wait another year.

[Koniving]

It was said that flamers would get a buff for Firestarters, but nothing happened.

[FupDup]

Because it can't be used as part of a high-damage, instantaneous alpha strike from across the map. Weapons that can't do that don't get buffed very often around here...

[Sgt Slavery]

Arc Viper, on 16 April 2014 - 07:04 AM, said:

Patch after patch, I hope and hope for some kind of change that makes the flamer useless. After seeing a video of a guy taking a stalker out in trials with one flamer, and killing himself from overheat damage before destroying one mech, we all know this is a highly useless weapon.

Why ignore it? So much time has been invested in its cool effects and it's cool sound, but it's useless. Completely useless. Why, PGI? Why?

I don't get it.... do you want it to be useless or do you think it's useless?

[FupDup]

Arc Viper, on 16 April 2014 - 07:04 AM, said:

After seeing a video of a guy taking a stalker out in trials with one flamer, and killing himself from overheat damage before destroying one mech, we all know this is a highly useless weapon.

That guy sounds familiar....

[FupDup]

Oh, and here is the Flamer video the OP was talking about:

[-Halcyon-]

So how long has it been like that?

[Void Angel]

FupDup, on 16 April 2014 - 07:24 AM, said:

Because it can't be used as part of a high-damage, instantaneous alpha strike from across the map. Weapons that can't do that don't get buffed very often around here...

Or nerfed.

You know, repeatedly, ever since HSR was completed. Like jump jets, AC/2s, AC/5s, AC/10s, AC/20s, PPCs, ERPPCS, and Gauss Rifles.

Pulse lasers got buffed, though!

Flamers do need a fix, but come on.

Edited by Void Angel, 16 April 2014 - 08:17 AM.

[Modo44]

Flamers are obviously OP. I killed a guy with a flamer once.

[Mizore]

I killed more guys by stomping on them in my Atlas while collisions were in the game, than I killed with flamers since MWO exists...

Edited by Mizore, 16 April 2014 - 10:08 AM.

[Kaptain]

FupDup, on 16 April 2014 - 07:40 AM, said:

Oh, and here is the Flamer video the OP was talking about:

HAHAHA! WOW. Thank you, point proven perfectly.

[Void Angel]

Mizore, on 16 April 2014 - 10:07 AM, said:

I killed more guys by stomping on them in my Atlas while collisions were in the game, than I killed with flamers since MWO exists...

Actually, you can still rub people to death with your Atlas. Done it myself. =)

As for the video, bear in mind that the Flamer's heat scales up (infinitely) because the weapons add heat to the target. So yeah, you can't kill anything with just a flamer - nor should you be able to, since the flamer is designed to transfer heat to your victim (also on a curve) until just about any heat-producing weapons fire will shut the enemy down.

That's not to say that Flamers are terribly useful weapons; but we do need to understand the whole picture if we're to be reasonable in our arguments, accurate in our assessments - or listened to in our feedback.

Edited by Void Angel, 16 April 2014 - 10:25 AM.

[Koniving]

Halcyon201, on 16 April 2014 - 08:05 AM, said:

So how long has it been like that?

Since they switched from the instant jump of this video.

So.... since mid July 2012.

Fun fact, when I said "fix this" I meant the fact that all the heat instantly disappears when you click the trigger (which also removed any other weapon heat too).

Edited by Koniving, 16 April 2014 - 10:58 AM.

[aniviron]

Koniving, on 16 April 2014 - 07:21 AM, said:

It was said that flamers would get a buff for Firestarters, but nothing happened.

Funny thing, I made a thread about this. It got buried, though.

For posterity, here's the twitter conversation where Russ talks about how flamers are getting a buff soon, from Feb. 3:



I do like that the off-the-cuff reaction to a balance problem in the game is, "Fine, then put a different weapon there" instead of "Oh, we should fix that weapon."

[Koniving]

You'd also like "Dear PGI" in my Sig.

Quote

Add to this that PGI has punished energy based builds time and time again to the point that while they are balanced, autocannons are not. SRMs just barely are getting close. It's been 2 years and virtually little effort has gone to flamers. ECM was never done right. It still combines Electronic Warfare Equipment, Guardian ECM, Angel ECM, and Stealth Armor (this alone is 12 slots) for a meager 1.5 tons and 2 slots. The design pillars of information warfare, of role warfare, are frequently tossed out or disregarded or in some cases punished.

There's also this, based before the AC/2 AC/5 nerf on actual shots fired in a 10 second period and not based on "dps." Remember when shooting the first shot is always at "0" seconds.

Flamer, 7 damage in ten seconds.
MG, 10 damage in 10 seconds.
AC/2, 38 damage in 10 seconds. (All 3 of these are supposed to do 2 damage in 10 seconds).
UAC/2, 78 damage in 10 seconds. (2 extra compared to double since there's a failure to fire the last shot in one case at the cutoff point. Otherwise both would be up by 2 more on top of this.) (UAC/2 in TT does 4 damage in 10 seconds.)
RAC/2, 228 damage in 10 seconds. (RAC/2 in TT does 12 damage in 10 seconds)

Small laser 12 damage in 10 seconds. (3 damage in 10 seconds)
AC/5, 30 damage in 10 seconds. (5 damage in 10 seconds)
UAC/5, 65 damage in 10 seconds. (UAC/5 would do 10 damage in 10 seconds in TT.)
RAC/5, 205 damage in 10 seconds exactly. (RAC/5 would do 30 damage in 10 seconds in TT).
Medium laser, 10 damage in 10 seconds ( 5 damage in 10 seconds)
AC/10, 50 damage in 10 seconds (10 damage in 10 seconds).
UAC/10, 100 damage in 10 seconds (perfectly timed to fire all shots). (UAC/10 would do 20 damage in 10 seconds in TT.)
PPC, 30 damage in 10 seconds (10 damage in 10 seconds).
Gauss Rifle, 30 damage in 10 seconds (15 damage in 10 seconds).
Large Laser, 27 damage in 10 seconds (8 damage in 10 seconds).
LPL, 31.8 damage in 10 seconds (9 damage in 10 seconds).
AC/20, 60 damage in 10 seconds (20 damage in 10 seconds)
UAC/20, 140 damage in 10 seconds. (UAC/20 would do 40 damage in 10 seconds in TT. The Hunchback II-C Clan mech sporting twin UAC/20s would do a total of 80 damage in a single turn. In the only lore source I've found so far, it's described that each UAC/20 requires firing 6 shots to do 20 damage, and can double its firing speed to pump out 12 damage in the same time frame [at risk of jamming] to churn out 40 damage.)

Edited by Koniving, 16 April 2014 - 11:39 AM.

[Ironwithin]

Honestly, everytime I read something from Mr. Bullock I think "you shouldn't be talking to us, you're not good at it...get someone else to do it for you."

[Belphagor]

Im curious why that stalker example only had 57, you can fit 61 all of them if you remove most of the armor. MISERY 61SHS FLAMER BNC-3S & HGN-733C's can fit 60 SHS. That said- yeah, flamers need something, even if it went back to heat flushing. They 'should' only have fuel (ammo) if you have heat built up. Their current state doesn't make them worth a 1 Ton energy slot. Now imagine the FL/ML combo lights with their own heat management... Maybe make it so it doesn't reduce heat w/o being applied to a mech in range, so you can't sit there and just freely flush heat constantly (outside of range), ala PPC/Flamer combo etc. Other ideas: redhot metal (after X amount applied) leaves a DOT for half the damage dealt per second until it cools back down. (own heat, environment etc are factors to armor cooling). Or have redhot armor be 'soft' and give a % bonus to penetration even if armor is still present.

Edited by Belphagor, 16 April 2014 - 12:20 PM.

[Arc Viper]

Now with the announcement of the Adder which comes with a flamer you cannot unequip, the need for a solid fix to the flamer is even more great. I just hope that PGI spots this thread and realizes how horribly broken one of their weapons is.

[Vermaxx]

The flamer and machine gun were grossly overpowered in previous games. PGI staff has said they headed this off at the pass in MWO by modifying how they work here. In other words, the weapons were too good/used by trolls in other games so PGI has intentionally made sure they will never be used as such here. Like the AC2 changes. All they'd have to do to make both weapons relevant is give them a duration (like a laser), and make them "beams" (like a laser), and give them a cooldown (like a...ah forget it). This would INSTANTLY allow both the flamer and the machine gun to suddenly be useful and not suck.