48 replies to this topic

[Kjudoon]

Durant Carlyle, on 21 April 2014 - 08:06 AM, said:

It's the "without a severe penalty" that I have a problem with.

Is a death really that severe?? C'mon ... nobody's K/D ratio is that important. Not mine, not yours, not the President of the United States', not the Pope's ... nobody's.

Just take your death like a man, just like your 11 teammates did. You don't have to like it ... you just have to do it.

CW and the return of R&R is going to be a severe shock to your system. Just as it is going to really hurt LRM and Ballistic boats.

[Kjudoon]

Spawnsalot, on 21 April 2014 - 08:04 AM, said:

I gave plenty of reasoning a few posts further up this page, I was hoping to have some decent feedback from you and to discuss the topic further. I've not seen any reasoning behind surrendering outside of "I don't want to die when we lose!".


The honourable way, if you have absolutely nothing positive to contribute to the match, would be to say "GG" and accept your fate and move on to the next drop and incur no penalties from any of your surrender suggestions.

Except when an early mass surrender screws the other party instead. Until PGI get their act together this game will never be much more than 'mech smash' I'm afraid, I wish it were different. Maybe this Attack/Defend mode they're supposedly working on will help that.

Of course, it's partly "I don't want to die in a loss", mostly because all that does at that stage is to serve someone else's ego at the expense of my own. Do you know of anyone who plays to die, then happily resigns himself to this fate? Maybe you don't put yourself into the game and try to play the role of your pilot, but I do. That means if I can survive out the timer by hiding, I'm going to do just that if I can't win by killing the enemy, I'll take the moral victory of not dying. That is now my goal.

Also, I hear constant whining about hiders at the end of match forcing people to search for them and the TOS issues (which we have been warned NOT to talk about here) that result from both sides as ADHD and rampant laziness creeps in by forcing the victorious team to do a hard target search. You want out of the match? I'm willing to sacrifice either XP or money to end it there, keep my sense of dignity and move on.

This solution currently in my mind is exclusively for Skirmish, because the Assault and Conquest modes have secondary victory conditions allowing the other team to roll in and win by cap. Skirmish, for some bizarre reason attracts people only satisfied when they 'bathe in the blood of their enemy' as victory. To them I say, you then get to hunt for that last hiding mech, which is perfectly legitimate as Egomane has distinctly put it for the remaining 7-12 minutes of the match depending on the severity of the roflstomp. Consider that the price of admission if you are not willing for some one to 'tap out'.

You know, that sentiment is like an underground bloodsport where it's no victory till the other guy dies or maimed to where they can't fight. If that's really what you want, I question your sanity. Simulated or not, a demand for such a desire is diseased when you know there are real people on the other end of the match, and worthy of moral repudiation. If this is all the game is going to be for, wow... maybe I am in the wrong place.

Skirmish freaks whine about hiders, I am offering them a solution of choice. allow the "tap out" or get stuck hunting and quitcherwhining.

Edited by Kjudoon, 21 April 2014 - 01:36 PM.

[Ardney]

People who play skirmish do get exactly what they deserve when someone runs/hides and trolls them. Reap the 'benefits' of a mode without objectives.

That said, framing this idea as a 'solution' offered to them is totally disingenuous. It offers literally nothing to those players. What you are suggesting would waste dev time on something that can currently be done, and better (read: with little to no penalty) by the player pressing esc > quit match.

For all the energy spent talking about this, the only change this would make when we boil it down is giving people a way to avoid a D on their stats. The stats that only they can see and that affect precisely nothing in the game. In my opinion, that's ridiculous. But different strokes for different folks. Fine. If someone wants to have ******** priorities that's their prerogative. But to demand that dev time be wasted on that when there are myriad more pressing issues is another matter entirely.

[Spawnsalot]

Kjudoon, on 21 April 2014 - 01:25 PM, said:

Oh come on Kjudoon, all I'm seeing here ego, ego, ego, me, me, me. There's *no* mechanically sound reason behind a surrender button

No one plays to die but you have to know when you're beat.
If you really put yourself into the role of your pilot maybe you should sell your mechs after they've been scrapped or not play them for weeks while they're "repaired"?
It's not a moral victory in any definition of the phrase, it's softening the blow of a loss for fragile ego's because "it's ok if I lost because I didn't die".

And again you're referring to the people that beat you as nothing more than Ritalin starved teens, giggling like they're killing ants with a magnifying glass.
Come down off that high-horse dude, they're players just like you and me - you're not superior to them and they aren't superior to you.
Running and hiding in a deathmatch game mode destroys any shred of dignity you may be looking to hold on to.

You want dignified? Learn to lose gracefully.

Skirmish attracts people who want deathmatch because the gamemode *IS* deathmatch that is the *only* objective. They come to this mode specifically to fight and if losing in that is not something you can handle then maybe you shouldn't select it when you drop?

"The price of admission"? Really? You have a way to "tap out", you say "GG, I'm done. I'm shutdown over here." what you want is a way to make yourself feel better about losing, "If I didn't die then I didn't lose!"

Like I said, Skirmish is a deathmatch mode, if you don't want to deathmatch then don't drop.

People don't drop into Skirmish covered in warpaint , wearing Rambo bandanna's and howling at their screen, they drop in because they don't want to prat about with objectives they just want to let off some steam and smash robots with like-minded people.

"An underground bloodsport"? "I question your sanity"? Along with the rest of that paragraph, really dude?

Get a grip. Come back down to Earth and remember you're playing video games like the rest of us.

[Kjudoon]

Spawnsalot, on 21 April 2014 - 11:57 PM, said:

Oh come on Kjudoon, all I'm seeing here ego, ego, ego, me, me, me. There's *no* mechanically sound reason behind a surrender button

No one plays to die but you have to know when you're beat.

Really, and all I hear from the Skirmish freaks is ego ego ego. I don't want to work to kill 1-2 guys hiding because they've been beat. When did Hari Kari become 'honorable' outside of Kurita? "Lose with grace"? The whole surrender/retreat option is fundamentally based on losing with grace! To say, 'uncle' or 'tap out' because you've been bested is not dishonorable. It's acknowledging as a gentleman (a term mostly unable to be applied to any gaming community if this is a representative sample) that you have met your betters and say, good game and send everyone else on to play another game.

Since you hate this, I guess you need to learn to how to earn your last kills then. That means doing the hard footwork of slogging it out and finding me in my hidie hole and quitcherwhining. If you're going to pretend to have honor, you need to deal with the fact you demand 'no quarter'. Even gladiatorial fights had the ability to surrender and take their chances with the crowd.

So don't support a surrender function. When I'm forced to play Skirmish and I'm that last guy, have fun looking for me for 7-12 minutes. Makes no difference to me. I count victory by survival then in the amount of times mechs walk by me within 200m. My record currently is 10 before the match ended or someone found me and gets my battered wreck of a mech. Don't play Skirmish? Sometimes, when playing with a group, I'm not given a choice. If what the PGI Devs are saying is also true, that won't be an option for me either in planetary defense/assault. You better be ready to reap what you sow. People like me, unwilling participants who aren't just going to turn off the brain and charge but take what victories we can because we have no other options.

Oh, and nice try with the redacto in absurdum. I put myself into the game, but I don't put myself in the game as an idiot. And yes, I stand by my statement. If killing is the only way to derive satisfaction, seek help. I guess years of FPS games hasn't worn my empathy and humanity to an idiotic psychopathic nub.

[Not A Real RAbbi]

Long topic, and I'm demonstratedly lazy. My $.02:

YES, surrender should be an option, and I think the OP has nailed a decent solution on it.

Let's remember, now, one of the benefits of the Beagle Active Probe: It allows you to target shut-down mechs.

This SURRENDER function would have to come with some in-game feature. That is, there would need to be a separate HUD and battle map icon to denote a surrendered mech. That would have to show up whether the mech is shut down or not. If the mechwarrior were able to restart his/her mech and rejoin the battle (act of cowardice, IMO, and currently outlawed here on Earth) after surrendering, that would have to revert back to the normal symbology.

Further, there would have to be a penalty for firing on a surrendered mech. Say I lock-up LRMs on a mech, fire, and while the missiles are in flight, it surrenders. Even if I lose lock, the missiles should still hit their last targeted point on the map, which is where Mr.WhiteFlag's mech stands. Should that be penalized? Probably not. If he surrenders, and I can clearly see that he has surrendered, and I fire on him anyhow, should I be penalized? Yup. 24/7/365.

So, I'm thinking there should be a lockout for that player if he/she surrenders. Not only from restarting/playing the mech in that match, but from observing, chatting, etc.

Imagine it. My CDA is almost cored, has no remaining weapons to use, etc., so I lead my enemies on a chase FAR away from my teammates, allowing them a moment to regroup. Then, I surrender my combat-ineffective mech, and go on in team/lance chat to relay crucial information about the enemy to my friendlies. Can't have it.

Better to go play meat shield for my teammates, I know. And I've seen it done very effectively. Nonetheless, the SURRENDER option is a good idea that deserves some consideration by the developer.

[Ardney]

TheRAbbi, on 22 April 2014 - 02:09 PM, said:

*stuff that requires dev time like new HUD elements, new targeting logic, new interface elements, etc.*
Nonetheless, the SURRENDER option is a good idea that deserves some consideration by the developer.

So tell me how any of that is functionally different then pressing Escape and selecting 'Quit Match'? Does it in fact offer any benefit besides somebody avoiding the possibility of adding a D along with the L he's going to get for that match? And you think this is worth paid developer time?

I have a better, far cheaper idea if that is your concern...Hide Ds and K/D ratio from player stats. Bam! Track all the kills you want and pretend you never ever get shot. Devs spend all of 2 minutes altering website and you get to avoid those scary Ds. Everybody wins.

Edited by Ardney, 22 April 2014 - 05:33 PM.

[Kjudoon]

Ardney, on 22 April 2014 - 05:33 PM, said:

So tell me how any of that is functionally different then pressing Escape and selecting 'Quit Match'? Does it in fact offer any benefit besides somebody avoiding the possibility of adding a D along with the L he's going to get for that match? And you think this is worth paid developer time?

I have a better, far cheaper idea if that is your concern...Hide Ds and K/D ratio from player stats. Bam! Track all the kills you want and pretend you never ever get shot. Devs spend all of 2 minutes altering website and you get to avoid those scary Ds. Everybody wins.

Hide KDR all you want. I'll still hide in the situation you hate most when forced to play on the fiasco known as Skirmish mode.

[Ardney]

Kjudoon, on 22 April 2014 - 05:35 PM, said:

Hide KDR all you want. I'll still hide in the situation you hate most when forced to play on the fiasco known as Skirmish mode.

Hahahahaha.

Slow down there and read my posts. Tell me where I indicate that I care if someone hides on skirmish. You won't find it. You will find this though:

Quote

People who play Skirmish do get exactly what they deserve when someone runs/hides and trolls them. Reap the 'benefits' of a mode without objectives.

Second, no one but NO ONE "forces" you to play Skirmish. There's mode selection and has been for some time. They even recently upgraded it so you could select several modes and actively exclude another. Don't want to play Skirmish? You're in luck because you don't have to!

I'm against these surrender ideas because I'm against spending dev time to add unnecessary bloat to the game when existing systems (Read: the escape menu) can already handle it perfectly.

Edited by Ardney, 22 April 2014 - 05:59 PM.