128 replies to this topic

[Lex Peregrine]

Tesunie, on 21 April 2014 - 05:09 PM, said:

I don't know if I should respond seriously again in the LRM debate, or laugh at the OP for complaining that LRMs are being used again... (Considering they were hardly used at all before hand.)

Cmon man, seriously?

I see no problem with LRMs being used, there's always room for a missile boat, but when people start packing 3 or more LRM15 or 20, or 5 or 6 LRM5 just to chain fire them continuosly, something is wrong! There are always people willing to exploit bad design decisions, and thats when the game turns to the worse.

I am asking PGI to look for other options when balancing this, the missile tube limit might be enough to help, as Namouche said the quick reload to fire an LRM20 through a hardpoint that only has 2 tubes is just stupid. We would still see lots of mechs with LRM10s, AMS are more effective against an LRM10 so it becomes a usefull defense, but only the larger mechs or mediums more focused on missiles would be able to pack the big launchers.

Looking at smurfy, the Raven is the smallest mech with 20 tubes on two missile hardpoints, but anyone who exploits that ability wont be able to fit much else, so no problem. Then there's the Trebuchet, with two hardpoints with 15 tubes, a good fire support mech for those who like the role and prefer smaller and faster mechs. The Griffin would also see more use, as its able to pack an LRM20 plus several smaller launchers, considering most other lights and mediums cant pack more than LRM10s. If you think of it, if every mech with a missile hardpoint is able to pack an LRM20, then why shouldnt every mech be able to pack an ECM? Some weapons should be more restricted, same way not every mech can mount an AC20 because it doesnt fit in arms that have hand actuators and stuff.

As for the no guidance idea, need to clarify I meant loose guidance after launch, this could be extended to "loose guidance after 200m, more with artemis or clan tech, then aim for last known target position", you can justify this with loss of signal between missile and mech' targeting computer as the range increases. Is that idea that ridiculous? If missiles did more splash damage and spread increases with distance, a good 2xLRM20 strike could hit and do damage to a group of enemies, not just one. Its mostly a support weapon, similar to the artillery strike!

As for streaks, sure dont change them, it was only a secondary thought didnt even meant to mention them. If they followed the same principle as above, they would only loose guidance at near their maximun distance anyway.

At least I think missile turn ration for both lrm and streak should be decreased.

[DeathlyEyes]

Bobzilla, on 21 April 2014 - 09:04 AM, said:

Just to put missles in perspective. You reference 40 lrms, thats 44 potential damage, but realisticly they hit less than 50% of the time, give a warning, take time to lock on, tavel slow, have a 180m min range, have a max range of 1000m and have equipment that mitigates or is a hard counter to the damage.

2xPPC and 2xac5 do 30 damage, always hit where they are aimed, no warning, are snap fire, travel fast, min range of 90m for the PPCs, longer max range, no equipment mitigates the damage.

Cover is the only thing that totally negates them both, but you get time to react with LRMs.

Betty doesn't warn me of LRMs until it's too late. Stop defending the change it is bad for the game. LRMs worked as intended as a proper support mech with other mech's spotting. They need to be dialed back to 140 M/S

Edited by SLDF DeathlyEyes, 22 April 2014 - 02:13 AM.

[FlipOver]

Lex, you chose one of the worst times to talk about missile launchers...
After the last few patches regarding LRM speed, there have been so many QQ on these forum that, by now, as soon as people see someone talk about LRMs they assume it is just another QQ thread asking to nerf LRMs.
Good luck with the proposal anyway. To me, makes sense...

[ImperialKnight]

Lex Peregrine, on 21 April 2014 - 08:35 AM, said:

I dont care if there are tons of threads about this, I dont come to this forum everyday, so dont bother replying to inform me of that, it just means there's one more person complaining.

Ever since PGI upped the lrm speed, its raining missiles again and AMS sucks when you have 40 lrms heading your way every 5 seconds! And dont tell me I should learn to use cover, Mechwarrior is not about hopping between one hill to the next afraid you're gona be hit by an lrm strike!

I dont want to jump complain, I want to offer sugestions:

Limit LRMs not just to number of hard points but also to number of missile tubes, for instances, if a mech has 2 missile hard points (10 x 2), then allow 2 LRM10 sure, but not 1 LRM20 or 2 LRM15. Looking at smurfy mechlab, I see lots of mechs that have missile hardpoints with a maximun of 10 tubes, while usually only the more missile-flavor mechs have some hardpoints with more than 10 tubes, this would be great for diversity, want to pack big launchers, choose a mech well suited for it.

Remove guidance from LRMs unless there's a tag or narc on target, lock should be required to aim the missiles somewhere, but once they fire they dont change direction (they arc or go direct depending on line of sight or not, if target has tag/narc then allow limited course change). To compensate, spread should increase with distance and damage be area-of-effect, so even missiles that hit the ground near you have a chance of doing some damage, while a more direct hit will spread the damage more, and other effects could be added, like falling down due to being hit by a large volley, and screen shake with varying intensity.

Similar change could be done to streaks, lock - fire straight at target automatically (up speed and decrease spread compared to srm) - no course changes after firing (they should be accurate enough unless you fire point blank and target moves past you as you fire), then no need to create stupid rules to limit streak 6 effectiveness.

LRMs are fine, move along

[Karl Streiger]

LRMs are fine
AC 5s are fine
PPCs are fine
in short every weapon on their own is fine.
nerfing a specific weapon hurts - those 1% of players that don't boat them.

Every and really every weapon in this game - causes problems when you stack them. (maybe even multiple Flammers on 3 Mechs)

While a single LRM build may be acceptable (near a waste of tonnage - cause of AMS)
A trio of LRM Boats - can destroy a focused target in no time. (not fine)
But same could be said about PPCs...or even those nerfed AC 2s - (take 3-builds with 3 AC 2s....not fine not balanced)

So if anybody has a idea - how to remove the stack multiplication of a single specific bracket weapon - without hurting the single use - please tell us

[Thunder Child]

Hey, since we're limiting the number and size of launchers on mechs because the canon says it's not meant to fit anything bigger, can we do the same with ACs and Energy Weapons too? Just because then it's "Balanced", right? So Jagers can only mount anything up to an AC 5. The Battlemaster can only mount anything up to Medium Lasers in those torso slots. Because they shouldn't be able to mount something Bigger than what they started with, right?!? Hell, why don't we just run Stock Mechs. Single Heatsinks for EVERYONE!..... Why are you not cheering? It'd be balanced then.

Seriously though. Why is it, as soon as the LRM becomes a viable weapon, despite all it's flaws, there are suddenly screams that it's "OP". The only Nerf that I can think would be REMOTELY FAIR to the system would be to reduce the duration of a lock after line of sight is lost. Nerfing missile speed will result in Missiles not hitting anything.... Again. Nerfing Damage will result in mechs wading through LRM Fire like it's a light shower of rain.... AGAIN. The LRM, despite it's "lock-on guidance" is the most avoidable weapon in the game, even at it's current speed. Hell, if I can dodge it in a 64kph HUNCHBACK, it can't be nearly as scary as that Meta 2xAC5 2xPPC build that just took my shoulder off from 700 metres away.

Come on guys, you're wanting to nerf a weapon system, that until the recent speed buff, was almost completely unusable. Even now, if I offered to bring an LRM "support" mech (not a Boat, but something that is built around missile support, as well as direct fire) to my units 12 man, I'd get laughed at. I am not a great pilot. I am not an expert marksman. But if I see LRMs being flung around the map, I adapt my tactics. I'd do the same if I saw a Dual Gauss on the field (assuming he didn't alpha me first). Or if I see Poptarts jumping about. Rather than whining on the forums about how (insert weapon here) killed you, instead, pay attention to how it was used to kill you, and adapt so that it doesn't happen again.

Just for the record, I don't use LRMs seriously at the moment. I have a LOLRMmaster that I roll out for laughs sometimes, but I'm using PPCs and AC5s. Why? Because they work so goddamn well.

[zztophat]

Kjudoon, on 21 April 2014 - 04:23 PM, said:

No, you need good twitch reflexes. These are not the same as skill. Skill denotes intelligence, the use of information and thought, not instinctual reactions. You practice the manouver till you can do it without thinking. Ergo, it is not a skill, but an instinct and reaction. I'm not saying that there isn't a purpose, but LRMs require lots of evaluations and estimations that do not rest solely on the ability to time a button click when your cursor is matching a clump of pixels or leading a target if you are to be effective.

Too many don't know the difference.

Quote

Full Definition of SKILL


1
obsolete : cause, reason

2
a : the ability to use one's knowledge effectively and readily in execution or performance
b : dexterity or coordination especially in the execution of learned physical tasks
3
: a learned power of doing something competently : a developed aptitude or ability <language skills>

[Lex Peregrine]

Thunder Child, on 22 April 2014 - 03:16 AM, said:

Hey, since we're limiting the number and size of launchers on mechs because the canon says it's not meant to fit anything bigger, can we do the same with ACs and Energy Weapons too? Just because then it's "Balanced", right? So Jagers can only mount anything up to an AC 5. The Battlemaster can only mount anything up to Medium Lasers in those torso slots. Because they shouldn't be able to mount something Bigger than what they started with, right?!? Hell, why don't we just run Stock Mechs. Single Heatsinks for EVERYONE!..... Why are you not cheering? It'd be balanced then.

Thats actually a cool idea!
Hard core mode for community warfare, no internal customization allowed until you reach a certain level in your faction, or if you're a merc you have enough money for a specialized mech-bay with experienced techs, and then only allow limited customization by giving a slot limit to each hardpoint (similar to MW4).

Swaping weapons requireds rank x or Standard Mechbay
Changing structure, heat sinks, engine etc requires rank y or Advanced Mechbay

Cool, I'll post that sugestion
lol

[Thunder Child]

Oh, and in reply to Karl Streigar, it's been suggested a couple of times that the heat system be reworked to mimic the Tabletop version, but it's been ignored repeatedly.
At the moment, if you stack enough Heatsinks, your threshold goes up to the point that you could actually fire 4 ppcs and not shutdown, even with Ghost heat.
In Tabletop, the threshold NEVER changed, the number of heatsinks just allowed you to cooldown faster.
To fix the problem of alpha builds, all they would need to do is set the Heat threshold lower, and allow heatsinks to work faster.
This would result in higher rates of fire in general, but with less Alpha damage. It'd also make Lasers much more viable, because it would be theoretically possible to build a mech that dissipates the heat as fast as you build it.
But then we would have this thing called Heat Neutrality. Paul is allergic to Heat Neutrality, so we will never see it in game.
But as an example, if the heat system worked correctly, a single PPC should be able to be fired every 4 secs and never cause your mech to overheat, if you were stationary. If moving, it would cause you to overheat in 5 minutes. This is with single heatsinks, by the way. If you were running Double Heatsinks, you'd be able to fire Two PPCs with the same result, and if you added another 8 DHS, you'd effectively be heat neutral, and could fire 3 PPCs on Cooldown. However, because each PPC produces 10 heat, as well as the heat generated from movement, you'd reach the Threshold of 30 Heat and shutdown, if only for a few seconds. Anyways.....

The TL:DR of it is, the Community has offered many solutions that would work, but they've been ignored.

[Thunder Child]

I've always supported the idea of a Stock only queue Peregrine, purely because that is a test of true "skill". Hot Mechs, light armor, slow engines, limited ammo. It all comes down to how well you can use what you're given. It's not about who can build the mech with the highest pinpoint Alpha, and unlimited (or near enough to it) Dakka. LRM boats would be balanced too, because they wouldn't have endless flights of missiles to be flung all over the map.

Let's face it, the real gripe with missile boats is because some guy leaps into one of these things and starts firing at any lock that shows up on screen. Good lock, bad lock, it doesn't matter, they just want to blow their load all over the place. And when it's so easy to do (not necessarily do WELL) you WILL get multiple people doing it. And that's when it truely becomes a problem. When multiple boats can light up any target within range. The problem is Teamwork is OP. And that's not something we can Nerf. I've heard the argument that people shouldn't be allowed to fire them indirectly without TAG or Narc. The ONLY way that will be remotely fair to the LRM system is to do one of two things.
First, buff the bejesus out of it so that it basically becomes a long range SRM, or missile version of the LB-x. Make it one hell of a direct flight Scatter shot, with a comparable speed to an AC5.
Or second, remove the lock on feature for indirect fire, BUT, if the target is Narc'ed or Tagged, ALL Non-Locked Missiles will automatically home in on the painted target. Because that is how those systems work IRL. The target get's lit up, and the missile tracks it all by itself.

The problem with the first is that we lose a tactical element of gameplay, because suddenly everyone goes back to ridge humping and poptarting.
The problem with the second, well, they'd still be hearing the qq 20 years from now.

Edited by Thunder Child, 22 April 2014 - 03:54 AM.

[James DeGriz]

I think you're largely right ThunderChild; the problem is simply that for new or inexperienced players (being diplomatic) LRMs are the path of least resistance. Because of the way they work, it's much easier to see which target your team mates are focusing on, and you can rely on sitting behind a hill with your finger on the fire button. I'm a decidedly average player; (probably even below average) and even though I prefer short range brawlers and have bad nights nights where I barely do 200 damage, I can hop into a LRM boat and rack up 4-500 without breaking a sweat.

I still regularly see matches where it's literally two teams playing LURM Tennis until one brave soul tries to go cover to cover to take one of the opposing teams LRM boats out, only to get swatted like a fly if he misjudges his run. Surely that's not where we want the game to be?

[Thunder Child]

I'd have to politely disagree, in that I prefer the game in it's current state, than to what it was before the LRM buff.
Previously, if I were to step out and try to close with the enemy, I would have found myself skewered six ways to Sunday by 4 poptarts and a pair of Dual Gauss snipers that were waiting for me to step around the bend. At least now there is a bit of variety to my sudden and inevitable death from long range fire. And with LRM fire, there is a high probability I can evade, or at least mitigate, the amount of damage that I take.
I will frequently make use of the torso dance to spread LRM damage all over my mech to extend my survivability, much as I would against a Laser or Dakka 2 user. But against the PPC/AC5 Alpha, there is no such defense. A skilled opponent will just wait for the return twist, or even line up a shot that bypasses the side you've left exposed (I am not that skilled, but some of the guys in my unit will pick off a spiders damaged side torso at 800-1200m), and pick apart your most important locations.
In fact, the only map I will consistently have trouble with LRM Buckets on is Alpine, and usually it's a Sniper that gets me, not the LRMs. I believe the true evil of LRMs is their psychological effect, especially on newer players. That is what causes a match to stagnate. Not the missiles themselves, but the fear of being pummelled to death by them, and unable to fight back. And so, everyone hugs cover, instead of pushing into the LRMs minimum range and killing them off.

[James DeGriz]

The problem is, in many games (at least in my experience) you're dead before you're 600 metres away. The fear of being pummelled to death by missile rain is a very real one and really a symptom of the problem. Granted, LRM rain is preferable to Jump-Sniperfest, that still doesn't make it acceptable nor right.

[Creovex]

Lex Peregrine, on 21 April 2014 - 08:35 AM, said:

I dont care if there are tons of threads about this, I dont come to this forum everyday, so dont bother replying to inform me of that, it just means there's one more person complaining.

Ever since PGI upped the lrm speed, its raining missiles again and AMS sucks when you have 40 lrms heading your way every 5 seconds! And dont tell me I should learn to use cover, Mechwarrior is not about hopping between one hill to the next afraid you're gona be hit by an lrm strike!

I dont want to jump complain, I want to offer sugestions:

Limit LRMs not just to number of hard points but also to number of missile tubes, for instances, if a mech has 2 missile hard points (10 x 2), then allow 2 LRM10 sure, but not 1 LRM20 or 2 LRM15. Looking at smurfy mechlab, I see lots of mechs that have missile hardpoints with a maximun of 10 tubes, while usually only the more missile-flavor mechs have some hardpoints with more than 10 tubes, this would be great for diversity, want to pack big launchers, choose a mech well suited for it.

Remove guidance from LRMs unless there's a tag or narc on target, lock should be required to aim the missiles somewhere, but once they fire they dont change direction (they arc or go direct depending on line of sight or not, if target has tag/narc then allow limited course change). To compensate, spread should increase with distance and damage be area-of-effect, so even missiles that hit the ground near you have a chance of doing some damage, while a more direct hit will spread the damage more, and other effects could be added, like falling down due to being hit by a large volley, and screen shake with varying intensity.

Similar change could be done to streaks, lock - fire straight at target automatically (up speed and decrease spread compared to srm) - no course changes after firing (they should be accurate enough unless you fire point blank and target moves past you as you fire), then no need to create stupid rules to limit streak 6 effectiveness.

PGI did do something... They released another 2x AMS mech variant, and for free! (Thunderbolt 9S). Realistically you probably were dominated by a very talented pre-made who knows how to support their missle boats and tag their targets.

As a general rule, please learn to use terrain to counter missiles if you feel you are getting stomped.

[Thunder Child]

The thing is though, that fear should be relevant. The moment a weapon in MWO is not feared for what it should be doing best, is the moment that weapon stops getting used.
Take Flamers for example. They have been the laughing stock of MWO since the nerf in CB. People only run them for laughs. But as mechwarriors (in character for a moment), we should be terrified of the damned things. Mechs are supposed to run hot, and anything that makes them run hotter means we shutdown, or die a fiery death. But that fear has been neutered, because Flamers just don't do what they should.
I ran a Catapult back when the missiles were slow as snails, and only did 0.8 damage per hit (I think they may have been buffed to that level, too). And it was a common occurrence to see Assault Mechs, hell, even Heavies and Mediums, just completely ignore wave after wave of missiles as they waded through them towards you. Nerfing the missiles themselves is not the way to go. Perhaps they could increase the reload times, to better reflect them being "support" weapons. Then people would have to time their flights for maximum effect. Of course, then you'd have to buff the damage to account for the lower DPS, because otherwise, they would once again become a worthless weapon.

[James DeGriz]

Creovex, on 22 April 2014 - 04:36 AM, said:

PGI did do something... They released another 2x AMS mech variant, and for free! (Thunderbolt 9S).

Hooraayy.. use a TDR-9S or AS7-K because of an over used weapon system? Brilliant.

Quote

Realistically you probably were dominated by a very talented pre-made who knows how to support their missle boats and tag their targets.

If that was the exception rather than the norm, you'd probably be right. Also, see my above example. I can be having a terrible night, until I jump into an LRM boat, and suddenly my performance is instantly doubled. That surely, is an indication of imbalance.

Quote

As a general rule, please learn to use terrain to counter missiles if you feel you are getting stomped.

People do, which is why such games tend to be peekaboo LRM tennis affairs.

[James DeGriz]

Thunder Child, on 22 April 2014 - 04:43 AM, said:

The thing is though, that fear should be relevant. The moment a weapon in MWO is not feared for what it should be doing best, is the moment that weapon stops getting used.
Take Flamers for example. They have been the laughing stock of MWO since the nerf in CB. People only run them for laughs. But as mechwarriors (in character for a moment), we should be terrified of the damned things. Mechs are supposed to run hot, and anything that makes them run hotter means we shutdown, or die a fiery death. But that fear has been neutered, because Flamers just don't do what they should.
I ran a Catapult back when the missiles were slow as snails, and only did 0.8 damage per hit (I think they may have been buffed to that level, too). And it was a common occurrence to see Assault Mechs, hell, even Heavies and Mediums, just completely ignore wave after wave of missiles as they waded through them towards you. Nerfing the missiles themselves is not the way to go. Perhaps they could increase the reload times, to better reflect them being "support" weapons. Then people would have to time their flights for maximum effect. Of course, then you'd have to buff the damage to account for the lower DPS, because otherwise, they would once again become a worthless weapon.

Again, I'm not saying LRMs should be nerfed to obvlion so that we're in the situation we were in the time you describe. Of course they should be viable enough where tactics have to be employed to mitigate their effects, otherwise there's no point in having them. The problem is that if you're in a situation where we are still at where even those mitigation tactics mean the game stagnates into what we have now and someone like me can drastically improve his kill and damage rates in game just by using a different weapon set, you've got a problem.

[Creovex]

James DeGriz, on 22 April 2014 - 04:46 AM, said:

If that was the exception rather than the norm, you'd probably be right. Also, see my above example. I can be having a terrible night, until I jump into an LRM boat, and suddenly my performance is instantly doubled. That surely, is an indication of imbalance.

With all do respect to your talents, I would say that you are looking at this the wrong way. Next time you jump into a pug, look around at your teammates.

• How many ECMs do you count?
  
• How many AMSs do you count?
  
• Are you spreading out or sticking together?

I bet the matches you lost had a few to none regarding ECMs and AMSs, And in the slaughter fest you are describing I bet you saw tons of spread on your teams side. It's the same reason you did better when you dropped with LRMs. Sometimes you get pug groups who come prepared, and others that completely lack the support equipment. I would just chalk it up to bad groups lately rather then a mechanical issue.

FYI - The last time LRMSs were actually unbalanced was back in Beta for a period of 4 weeks where they were monsters! Now, they feel just right.

[Thunder Child]

Unfortunately, we will always have that problem. I can go from my AC20 Hunchback with 300-400 damage in a match, to my LRM 40 Battlemaster, with 500-600 damage in a match, to my Dual Gauss Jager with 800-900 damage per match.
Any modification to the weapon itself will result in it being shelved again. As it stands, LRMs are only just viable, relative to the Direct Fire FLD weapons, in terms of weight and heat. The weapon as it is right now, is probably the most balanced it's been since Closed Beta. The real issue is the ability to indiscriminately bombard targets all over the map. Now, as a suppression system, this is what LRMs are designed to do. They need to have sufficient damage to be considered a threat, have sufficient speed to reach their target and not just be mitigated by someone shuffling a metre to one side, and have a sufficient arc that they can ignore the typical obstacles used to block Direct Fire.
I personally believe the best way to balance this indirect fire capability would be to use the Battlegrid to plot target destinations. It would give the battlegrid a use, and prevents the "teamwork is OP" arguement, it would also make Boats even more vulnerable (which they don't REALLY need, to be fair).
Either that, or only allow indirectly fired missiles to home on Narc'ed or Tagged targets. However, no lock on time would be required, and only the spotter would need to keep the lock, essentially making them fire and forget weapons.

Edit: As I've said, I think LRMs are fine as they are now, with the exception of a slight tweak to target decay. If targets decayed a lot sooner, less missiles hit, meaning you actually have to be good at using LRMs to get maximum potential.

Edited by Thunder Child, 22 April 2014 - 05:12 AM.

[StalaggtIKE]

Yesterday was the first time I've died to LRM this year; no bit of exaggeration. It took a spotter, 4 missile boats and being the last guy standing.

It has killed therefore it should be nerfed.

Edit: LRM could use a hit towards excessive boating, but not much else is necessary. They have several counters, including a few hard counters. But most importantly LRM just aren't reliable, as any of the following can make or break them:

• superior positioning
  
• stacked ECM
  
• stacked AMS
  
• lack of spotters
  
• fast Lights/Mediums

If you're a good enough shot, nothing beats the reliability of a PPC/AC in this game.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 22 April 2014 - 05:19 AM.