Lex Peregrine, on 22 April 2014 - 01:57 AM, said:
Cmon man, seriously?
I see no problem with LRMs being used, there's always room for a missile boat, but when people start packing 3 or more LRM15 or 20, or 5 or 6 LRM5 just to chain fire them continuosly, something is wrong! There are always people willing to exploit bad design decisions, and thats when the game turns to the worse.
I am asking PGI to look for other options when balancing this, the missile tube limit might be enough to help, as Namouche said the quick reload to fire an LRM20 through a hardpoint that only has 2 tubes is just stupid. We would still see lots of mechs with LRM10s, AMS are more effective against an LRM10 so it becomes a usefull defense, but only the larger mechs or mediums more focused on missiles would be able to pack the big launchers.
Looking at smurfy, the Raven is the smallest mech with 20 tubes on two missile hardpoints, but anyone who exploits that ability wont be able to fit much else, so no problem. Then there's the Trebuchet, with two hardpoints with 15 tubes, a good fire support mech for those who like the role and prefer smaller and faster mechs. The Griffin would also see more use, as its able to pack an LRM20 plus several smaller launchers, considering most other lights and mediums cant pack more than LRM10s. If you think of it, if every mech with a missile hardpoint is able to pack an LRM20, then why shouldnt every mech be able to pack an ECM? Some weapons should be more restricted, same way not every mech can mount an AC20 because it doesnt fit in arms that have hand actuators and stuff.
As for the no guidance idea, need to clarify I meant loose guidance after launch, this could be extended to "loose guidance after 200m, more with artemis or clan tech, then aim for last known target position", you can justify this with loss of signal between missile and mech' targeting computer as the range increases. Is that idea that ridiculous? If missiles did more splash damage and spread increases with distance, a good 2xLRM20 strike could hit and do damage to a group of enemies, not just one. Its mostly a support weapon, similar to the artillery strike!
As for streaks, sure dont change them, it was only a secondary thought didnt even meant to mention them. If they followed the same principle as above, they would only loose guidance at near their maximun distance anyway.
At least I think missile turn ration for both lrm and streak should be decreased.
I see no problems with LRMs being used (hence I created and posted up guides on LRMs and linked them in that post). I think you misread what I typed, and it appears I may have misread your OP? (Or this thread has changed your mind from what I've been reading you post from the second page on. I'll admit, I read the OP and just responded.) Please understand from my point of view, I've already done a lot of arguing about LRMs two patches ago. It was getting a little frustrating to tell people that LRMs are all that over powered at the moment, and I feel it's nice to see them being used. (And to have it so it isn't just me basically using them in a match.)
I wouldn't go for hard point restrictions, never liked that system myself. I never felt it was a balancing mechanic, but was more of a player limiter than anything else. And, it actually stopped some very cannon builds from being created on chassis in those games. (Uller couldn't be set up in A configuration, as it could not fit a Gauss rifile, at least not without the Mektek packs...)
Personally, I run too large of launchers in many of my mechs, and I don't see it as anything that's causing anyone else grief when I play them. (Actually, most people tell me that I should keep them to the max size of my tube count, and most LRM guides say the same thing. Lets just say, I don't use LRMs like how most people do. I'm a rare LRM brawler...)
My
Raven x4 has an ALRM15, and still has enough other weapons to be a large threat. (Just saying.) AC20s are suppose to, by lore, split their crits up between arms and torsos if actuators get in the way. MWO decided to do something easier, as their system they had placed couldn't seem to handle the split crits of a single weapon component (unless it was hardwired into the item, like the XL engine). I don't feel that LRMs should see a similar restriction. (I'll admit a launcher to tube size restriction would make my
Quickdraw,
Stalker, and
several other mechs I own very sad, and I'd hate to have to change them!)
If you also consider restricting LRMs to tube size, I'm going to guess it would have to apply to SRMs as well as they operate under the same theory/system. What would a Raven do with the NARC slot if they didn't want NARC? Be forced to leave that blank?
SLDF DeathlyEyes, on 22 April 2014 - 02:12 AM, said:
Betty doesn't warn me of LRMs until it's too late. Stop defending the change it is bad for the game. LRMs worked as intended as a proper support mech with other mech's spotting. They need to be dialed back to 140 M/S
HSR is getting you here. By the time HSR says there are incoming missiles (AKA: Lag notification), they have already hit. This especially comes into play when LRM mechs are near their minimum range (which is my playground for my LRMs).
I have no idea how the lag of Betty's "Incoming Missiles" could be corrected. Then again, I'd like to often times feel/see the effects when I'm being pummeled to death from ACs/PPCs. But HSR registered hits provide me no shake or notification besides "side torso destroyed" often times (aka: Damage being applied.)
James DeGriz, on 22 April 2014 - 04:49 AM, said:
Again, I'm not saying LRMs should be nerfed to obvlion so that we're in the situation we were in the time you describe. Of course they should be viable enough where tactics have to be employed to mitigate their effects, otherwise there's no point in having them. The problem is that if you're in a situation where we are still at where even those mitigation tactics mean the game stagnates into what we have now and someone like me can drastically improve his kill and damage rates in game just by using a different weapon set, you've got a problem.
Different skills for different weapons. Place me in a mech with ballistics as it's primary damage, I will die fast for some reason. Place me in a PPC/AC5 meta build, and I do very poorly. Place me in a laser build, and I seem to do very well. Place me in a missile build, and I do better. Place me in a
balanced build between lasers and missiles, and I seem to exceed all my other stat given results. (So far, since the new patch, I'm 11 games in, have 18 kills to 1 death, do 615 damage per match, and do 7.24 damage per ton per match. My
Griffin (K/D of 1.50) shows very similar results in damage stats. Never head a K/D that high before! And... that's because I think I've just been darned lucky in the PUG lottery with that mech...)
StalaggtIKE, on 22 April 2014 - 05:10 AM, said:
Yesterday was the first time I've died to LRM this year; no bit of exaggeration. It took a spotter, 4 missile boats and being the last guy standing.
It has killed therefore it should be nerfed.
Edit: LRM could use a hit towards excessive boating, but not much else is necessary. They have several counters, including a few hard counters. But most importantly LRM just aren't reliable, as any of the following can make or break them:
- superior positioning
- stacked ECM
- stacked AMS
- lack of spotters
- fast Lights/Mediums
If you're a good enough shot, nothing beats the reliability of a PPC/AC in this game.
Direct fire weapons still out preform my LRM stats (and I have a 44.6% accuracy with my best launcher, the non-artemis LRM15! 6 matches played with it though...) driven numbers. Ton for ton, direct fire weapons seem to always out preform LRMs for damage. Direct fire weapons also out preform LRMs on getting kills as well...
Then consider that direct fire weapons have no other counter besides terrain...
Warge, on 22 April 2014 - 05:21 AM, said:
...and they still hit mostly Mech's CT.
I find they don't hit mostly CT, but (hit box depending), the side torso of the side that is facing, including arms. You twist right, and most times you'll take most of the damage to your arms/side, rather than your CT still. And, with them still being the slowest weapon in the game, with warnings such as "Incoming missile", you should have plenty of time to try and twist the damage to other places... (even more reliably than against other direct fired weapons too!)
Thunder Child, on 22 April 2014 - 05:48 AM, said:
That would be because the CT is the Central point of the target. This is an issue that usually occurs due to the tightening effect of Artemis and TAG, which any smart LRM player will be running, and using, to make the most out of his 30+ tons of weaponry.
And the argument that you are referencing is actually referring to the fact that only 50% of the missiles from all shots fired, not from each salvo, actually hit. My personal stats are actually around the 36-37% mark, and I am careful with my LRM volleys. I try to avoid blind-firing if at all possible. Compare that to my 63-65% for Gauss, Uac, and AC 20. And remember that, although an LRM 15 can potentially get up to 18 points of damage on target, compared to the 15 of a Gauss, that is before up to a third of the volley can be negated by a single AMS unit, and if the missiles are fired indirectly, up to half of the remaining damage potential may be lost as splash against terrain, especially if the target is moving. The remaining 6 points worth of damage potential is then scattered over the mech, with a smart player mitigating it further through torso twisting. As opposed to a Gauss slug, which will put 15 points on a single location.
A single LRM15 launcher can be snuffed out by 2 AMS in my experience... (3 AMS have commonly negated my
ALRM20 launcher on many of my designs.) LRMs have plenty of counters to them. ECM. AMS. Terrain. Breaking lock. Slower movement speeds.
If anything, I agree that indirect fire of LRMs should possibly have more spread, and the support equipment for LRMs could use an additional look into, namely the Avd Target Decay module... (My opinions of course.)
Merchant, on 22 April 2014 - 06:56 AM, said:
Chain fired LRM5s are due to people wanting to avoid Ghost Heat. Not many pack 3+ big LRMs anymore, those that do HAVE to chain fire them. Gone are the days of the 5LRM20 Stalkers with less than 35 kph.
A Griffin cannot pack LRM20 plus smaller launchers. MAYBE the 1S with LRM20 + LRM10 but I run mine in a similar build to the HBK-4J, twin LRM10, 3ML, TAG, XL engine for mobility, the one difference is no BAP but 7JJ. Just as effective as the Hunchie and even more than a slower speed Mech with bigger launchers. Point is, I am running Griffins now and there is no way you can pack 1LRM20 plus other launchers in any of them without serious problems.
Because ECM Stealth is too strong, even now after adding all the counters to it, it is still too strong. Heck, there should be a Griffin-2N available with a ECM hardpoint. I don't know why they don't just fix ECM getting rid of Stealth and all the counters but because we are STUCK with Stealth mode, there will never be every Mech carrying ECM. If we could, everyone would have it and this would NOT be MWO, it would be NinjaWarrior Online because everyone would have ECM. This would beg the question of why LRMs even existed since no one could use them due to all the ECM, Streaks would be near useless too. ECM for everyone is a WHOLE different game.
These are called Swarm LRMs, Lostech not available until AFTER the Clans invade that has not happened in game yet.
LRM5s have no ghost heat. Shooting more than 2 LRM10s at once do have Ghost heat last I knew. So chain fired LRM5s are only there to eat AMS or to shake their targets. I have not felt those builds to be all that effective when I see them on the field of combat.
My
Griffins always run with several different launchers. The trick is, you don't have to cram (boat) all the same type of missile in your missile hard points... I find a single LRM20 launcher to be more than enough to provide utility and range to a design, letting me choose how and when I engage an enemy. So far, I have found that Griffin design to be one of my best designs to date, right behind my
Stalker 3F.
You probably don't want to hear me going off on ECM here... ECM is better than it once was, but I still feel it could use a lot of tweaks. However, there are now enough counters to it to make it seem much better. I am happy that they have restricted ECM to certain mech variants. I will agree, we could use a good heavy and medium chassis (beside the Cicada, which I view more as a light...) with ECM to help spread the love. But at the same time, I hate ECM "stealth". I do understand why it works the way it does though, but it's still annoying...
I can't wait for the ThunderLRMs... I'd love to be able to set up little mine fields on commonly placed paths, or just blind fire in front of an enemy and have them walk on the missiles...
(I feel like I wanted to say something more when I made these quotes, but I forgot what it was...
)
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