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Mwo: A List Of Its Main Issues And Possible Solutions

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#1 Sybreed

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 06:58 PM

Updated with problems #4 and #5, and notes added to the hardpoint and heat reworks.

Aright guys, sorry for being the negative Nancy, but since there's a new GD in town, I thought a comprehensive list of stuff that needs improvements/overhauls is needed as a central point of discussion for MWO's main issues.

So, here's a short list of MWO's main problems with possible solutions for each. You can agree or disagree with each and constructive arguing is encouraged.

(I won't discuss the private lobbies and group stuff as I'm not really informed on the matter)

Problem #1

Ghost heat. While it technically accomplishes it's intended purpose, it is a convoluted, illogical mechanic

We know, the pinpoint PPC meta was awful and one of the most boring gameplay experiences ever. But, PGI took the easy way out. Instead of making the hard decisions of completely revisiting the hardpoint system and the heat system, they decided to add a completely arbitrary measure that discourages alpha firing.

Possible solution: 2 steps:
1) Add hardpoint sizes. Doesn't completely fixes the issue as some mechs are natural massive boats, but alleviates it as it promotes more mixed builds setups and more role warfare.

note: Fupdup as a better idea, read it here:

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__3314788

2) Rework heat and use a 10 seconds turn as a template, adapt as needed (in other words, if your MWO "turn aka weapon cooldowns" last 5 seconds, double the heatsinks efficiency). Look, if my mech has a single Mlaser and 10 heatsinks, and I fire said Mlaser 3 times in 10 seconds, it simply shouldn't generate heat, ever (considering Mlasers generate 3 heat). But, if I fire 6 at the same time, then I can expect to be overheating instantly. There should be a balance between weapon usage and your heat generated in a 10 seconds timer.

For example, let's take the Awesome. 3 PPCs, 30 heat generated, 30 heatsinks. If I fire the 3 PPCs at the same time, I should shut down immediately. If I fire the 3 PPCs so it takes approx 10 seconds to fire them all, then my heat should be very close to 0 at the end of the 10 seconds "turn". If I can fire the same PPC twice in that 10 seconds magical turn, then I should be able to fire 6 PPCs in 10 seconds and not overheat if I have 30 heatsinks.

This can be adapted as needed. There's a test server, we should use it for this. Why am I suggesting hardpoint sizes as well as this? Simply because I don't want everyone to boat pinpoint weapons all the time. Having a variety of weapons on a mech forces more tactical thinking and is more fun to play than having a 1 button wonder.

Problem #2

Single heat sinks being useless vs DHS. endo/XL/DHS too easy to acquire, creates imbalances in matches vs less upgraded mechs.

I'll skip to the solution immediately: as much as I hate to say this, MWO should have used a tier system or at least BV. When a mech starts upgrading with DHS and Endo, or by using tier 2 weapons like U/ACs and such, it should start climbing in its "tier" lvl. After a certain threshold, it reaches tier 2 and can only fight tier 2 mechs. This way, most SHS mechs would fight SHS mechs and so on. A BV would have a very similar use and be closer to canon. But I doubt PGI would take the time to implement such a system.

In other games F2P games like War Thunder or LoL upgrades give you an advantage, but nothing as overpowering as upgrades in MWO. There needs to be a way to separate a full upgraded Highlander vs a stock Centurion.


Problem #3

Maps don't promote interesting gameplay. Rather, a stale, deathmatch like game mode that gets old fast.


Look, PGI, this isn't Quake 2, this is Mechwarrior and your maps are killing a good 3rd of the fun out of this game. When I heard about CW, I thought of Objective-based game modes like you have in Chivalry. Having an asymmetrical, objective based map is 10x more fun than a round arena-like map. Assault/defense with secondary objectives should have been the basis of MWO and you failed at this in a way that it will be hard to recover from. You should start looking for community made maps and promote a more asymmetrical style of gameplay if you want to reduce your costs. Arena-like maps are fun for a while, but they don't keep you playing long. MW:LL, while not without its flaws, had some very interesting map designs.

Problem #4

The F2P model has been wrong from the start

I tend to believe that there's a cashflow issue with PGI right now and a part of the problem has been the wrongfully designed F2P economy. People don't mind spending two or four bucks here and there. But, constantly asking for 15-25$ for hero mechs and 30-240$ for packages is simply too much for the average gamer.

There's a thing in BT called salvage, and you could have based your entire economy off it. At the end of each matches, you get different kind of salvages (weapon, colors, paint schemes, heat sinks, etc) and players who want to see what kind of salvages need to pay 1$ for it. See where I'm going with this? This is simply what DOTA 2 CS:GO have been using and it's been a HUGE success. Sure, you can still pay for packages and stuff with MC. But, if you want a steady income of cash, a microtransaction system is what you need. You were such in a hurry to release MWO though, you completely missed the opportunity.

I described what system I had in mind in a rush, but I hope you guys get it. There's the disadvantage that you don't get what you really wanted, but then, you just need to implement a "trade" system that can fix the issue.

Feel free to discuss and sorry for the various grammar mistakes.

Aright, so I said yesterday I would talk about ECM and the Gauss charge, so here it goes. I also need to bring precision to the heat rework and hardpoint sizes ideas.

Problem #5

ECM and the (lack of) information warfare

Interestingly enough, the lack of info warfare can be directly related to the maps layout in MWO. The movement patterns are so obvious and the maps so small, there is simply no need to have a robust info warfare system as the only info you really need is mech positions and armament..

While one big reason we lack info warfare is the smallish maps (note: Bigger maps would perhaps require adding respawns, as it is simply not much fun to spawn, die, then start all over in an entirely different match), the other reason is that PGI never really put much work into the radar system in MWO. While the BT fans could explain this a lot better than I do, there's supposed to be an active and passive mode in MW. What we currently have is a very arcadey always active but also passive mode where LoS is king. What this also meant is that LRMs were also dumbed down, because you could always shoot them as long as you maintained lock. When PGI introduced ECM, we were in a sort of LRMgeddon but not a total apocalypse, and instead of following canon, they went completely overboard with how powerful ECM is. It's a toggable system that doesn't require any effort to use, only weights 1.5 tons (right? not sure) and completely counters guided missiles. Canonically, ECM is supposed to counter different pieces of equipment like NARC or Artemis. But, these pieces of equipment were so negligible in usefulness, there wasn't really a reason to counter these.

Now that NARC is back into being something worth carrying and that missiles aren't as OP as they used to be, ECM doesn't need to be the king of "nope" and needs to be brought back to a reasonable level of countering NARC/BAP, etc. Oh, BAP, it needs to be reworked as well. I don't know how exactly, but PGI needs to rework this one so it makes sense canon-wise. Don't forget ECM is something that requires ZERO input, and as such shouldn't be as powerful as it is.

My vision of info warfare would require huge maps where you have several spots where you can "hide" with your passive sensors and get info on incoming mechs through BAP/NARC/TAG. Such info could be transferred to your team this way and you could coordinate attacks as such. C3 computers are another thing. I think this specific part could be a bit "annoying" to implement in MWO. Too early to tell about this.

Problem #6

Gauss rifle charge and how damage is dealt in MWO

Now, the gauss rifle is supposed to be the standoff long range ballistic gun. As such, it acts well as a sniping tool. But, it shouldn't be performing as well in brawls. But, how "bad" do we want it to perform? In other games, if someone flanks you when you're using a sniper rifle, you're usually caught pants down with a "no crosshair" rifle and you need to be either lucky and/or skillful to perform a perfect no crosshair shot. In MWO, you can't have this as your other weapons require the use of a crosshair. The other drawback of the using a sniper rifle is that you have HUGE reload times. Oh, I think we have something here.

Sniping shouldn't be completely frowned upon in MWO, but I can understand that the PPC/PPC/Gauss combo was too powerful and easy to use, especially when used with jetpacks. First, I think there needs to be a revisit of how damage is dealt. IMO, and I understand if people will disagree, Gauss rifles should be the only weapon that deals pinpoint damage. PPCs should, IMO, deal 5 pinpoint damage, 5 aoe damage. (2.5 to 2 adjacent parts, something like that) and ACs should be closer to burst cannons that shoot several slugs that deal fixed damage (AC/10 is 5x2, AC/20 10x2 or 5x4, AC/2 is 2x1, AC/5 is 5x1, numbers can change) so that you can mitigate the front loaded damage. Still, they need to fire very fast so they're very close to pinpoint damage.

As for the Gauss rifle, I could fix it using these 3 steps:

1) Remove Gauss charge
2) Add a fire delay (like the new sniper rifle for the NC in planetside 2, you click, there's a 0.5 second delay, then you shoot)
3) Increase cooldown so it really feels like a sniper rifle and doesn't become too good in brawls, but still very usable.


Notes about hardpoint sizes:

Fupdup has a pretty good idea how to implement hardpoint sizes... and he calls it hardpoint critslots. It's a more elegant idea and would fit MWO better IMO.

Notes about the heat rework:

My description of how heat should work is pretty much what we have, except PGI halved weapon cooldowns or so, for the sake of keeping the combat exciting. If you permit your players to fire twice as fast in your game, then you should also cooldown twice as fast. In other words, I'd double the heat efficiency of heatsinks and remove the increasing of the heat threshold. I explained it further in the edited part of the OP.

Edited by Sybreed, 22 April 2014 - 04:59 PM.


#2 FupDup

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 07:10 PM

For Problem #2, I've always been a fan of buffing the underdogs rather than adding external systems like BV or tiers or other handicaps.

Part of the issue with keeping the inferior stuff inferior is that MWO is played very differently than TT. TT was a turn-based strategy game. You generally controlled several units or even a whole army. If you had a few crappy mechs/units on your side, it didn't really matter because you had a whole bunch of them and/or you could control the good units simultaneously. But here in MWO, you only get one unit per player. Having a Panther or something alongside your assault lance might be okay in TT because you could command all of them. But in a real-time game with 1-to-1 controlling, being that Panther pilot next to blinged-out assault mechs might not be so enjoyable.

The analogy I'm going to use is that it's like a custom game of Starcraft where you get to choose one unit of your choice when the game begins, and that one dude is all you get. How many people would prefer to play something like a Zergling or Zealot over an Ultralisk or Battlecruiser? Probably not very many.

Edited by FupDup, 21 April 2014 - 07:16 PM.


#3 Sybreed

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 07:25 PM

View PostFupDup, on 21 April 2014 - 07:10 PM, said:

For Problem #2, I've always been a fan of buffing the underdogs rather than adding external systems like BV or tiers or other handicaps.

Part of the issue with keeping the inferior stuff inferior is that MWO is played very differently than TT. TT was a turn-based strategy game. You generally controlled several units or even a whole army. If you had a few crappy mechs/units on your side, it didn't really matter because you had a whole bunch of them and/or you could control the good units simultaneously. But here in MWO, you only get one unit per player. Having a Panther or something alongside your assault lance might be okay in TT because you could command all of them. But in a real-time game with 1-to-1 controlling, being that Panther pilot next to blinged-out assault mechs might not be so enjoyable.

The analogy I'm going to use is that it's like a custom game of Starcraft where you get to choose one unit of your choice when the game begins, and that one dude is all you get. How many people would prefer to play something like a Zergling or Zealot over an Ultralisk or Battlecruiser? Probably not very many.

Well, fixing the heat system and adding R&R would certainly help buff the underdog, but I think R&R are forbidden words around here :)

Edited by Sybreed, 21 April 2014 - 07:27 PM.


#4 Sybreed

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 07:30 PM

2 other problems will be posted tomorrow: Gauss rifles and ECM!

#5 FupDup

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 07:37 PM

View PostSybreed, on 21 April 2014 - 07:25 PM, said:

Well, fixing the heat system and adding R&R would certainly help buff the underdog, but I think R&R are forbidden words around here :)

The heat system certainly needs an overhaul, but I'm not so sure about RnR.

It wouldn't actually increase the in-game effectiveness of certain items or mechs. It would simply make them easier to maintain after you've already won/lost the battle. It doesn't actually impact the flow of combat, which is why it doesn't really bring balance. Running an el-cheapo medium might be easy as heck to repair and stuff, but that doesn't make the unit combat effective. Being cheap is not a tactical advantage, nor is being expensive a tactical disadvantage.

In-game and the front end are entirely separate dimensions. Adding money costs to one dimension isn't really going to impact the balance of the other, completely distinct dimension. Sure, some noobs and money farmers might climb out of their assaults/heavies, but Mount Tryhard would be just as skewed towards heavy/assault meta spam as usual.

Edited by FupDup, 21 April 2014 - 07:37 PM.


#6 GalaxyBluestar

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 07:40 PM

Posted Image

#7 AntiCitizenJuan

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 08:26 PM

Remove charge up from Gauss and add it to PPCs.

You'd be surprised the amount of shockwaves that sends into the meta.

#8 Deathlike

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 12:15 AM

View PostAntiCitizenJuan, on 21 April 2014 - 08:26 PM, said:

Remove charge up from Gauss and add it to PPCs.

You'd be surprised the amount of shockwaves that sends into the meta.


TBH, I'm used to the mechanic, so it would actually be bad for those that complain.

#9 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 12:28 AM

View PostAntiCitizenJuan, on 21 April 2014 - 08:26 PM, said:

Remove charge up from Gauss and add it to PPCs.

You'd be surprised the amount of shockwaves that sends into the meta.

yeah because PPCs cause 15 points of front loaded damage for no heat with the best range and fastest projectile in the game with a totally borked heat system.......oh wait..... that's the Gauss.

#10 ArmandTulsen

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 12:46 AM

I can't believe people are in favour of the Gauss charge.....

lol.....

#11 Frankdark

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 12:57 AM

100% Agree to Sybreed

Stop taking nonsens of Buffing one weapon over a other.
The Hole Systems need a massiv Tweak.

The Charge Up Mechanism is a good way, to make the Game Slower and balance it against 10 sek.

And There are more options and things to do.

Like Missile Boat mechnic without nerfing missile Boats to the Ground.

Concept.
Hold Weapon group with Missiles ( Circel Appears and Targets arround Enemy )
For 0,5 sek Holding the Trigger 5 missiles get a lock.
Releasing the Trigger fires all Missiles with a lock.
Target goes out of Range/Sight while Trigger is hold, Lock is lost.

There is allso a way to Remove Missiles like they are now and Switch all of them with 2 weapon Groups.
Direct Fire / Ballistic Fire. On Group could work like discribed above the other fires straith line.
With Artemis, they can work like SSRM

many possibilities to do it BETTER than it is now

#12 Brawler1986

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 01:00 AM

Gauss charge wont do anything to gameplay. I use Gauss and dual PPC and its all a matter of skill to get arround this. The only drawback is when the enemy is playing hide and seek, you have an increased reaction time. But when you are assaulting then you reaction time will adapt.

#13 Frankdark

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 02:20 AM

thats the point why we need more than just PPC change

#14 Khobai

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 02:50 AM

Quote

I use Gauss and dual PPC and its all a matter of skill to get arround this


I partly agree. Increasing the skillcap will not prevent players from using weapons provided those weapons are worth using.

The problem with Gauss is that its not worth using. Its DPS was nerfed into the dirt by increasing its cooldown to a horrendously long 4.75 seconds.

#15 Craig Steele

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 03:38 AM

View PostGalaxyBluestar, on 21 April 2014 - 07:40 PM, said:

Posted Image


Have I got any life lines?

I think I'd like to take 2. :(

#16 Leartes

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 04:04 AM

View PostSybreed, on 21 April 2014 - 06:58 PM, said:

Problem #1 Ghost heat.
1) Add hardpoint sizes. 2) Rework heat and use a 10 seconds turn as a template
Problem #2 Single heat sinks being useless vs DHS. endo/XL/DHS too easy to acquire
...
There needs to be a way to separate a full upgraded Highlander vs a stock Centurion.
Problem #3 Maps don't promote interesting gameplay.You should start looking for community made maps and promote a more asymmetrical style of gameplay
Problem #4 The F2P model has been wrong from the start
At the end of each matches, you get different kind of salvages (weapon, colors, paint schemes, heat sinks, etc) and players who want to see what kind of salvages need to pay 1$ for it. See where I'm going with this? This is simply what DOTA 2 CS:GO have been using and it's been a HUGE success.


Problem 1:
I like what sized hardpoints would add to the game, but it would stray pretty far from the lore imo, so I can see why they don't do it. More heat per weapon with faster cooling could work. Also worse convergence could do wonders here, but this is also difficult as people get annoyed quickly if weapons are not accurate.

Problem 2:
Not a problem a big problem since everyone uses the upgrades anyway. I would love a low-tech game mode where no upgrades are allowed and with some limitations on weapon tech you can bring. The main queue should always be bring the best you have. Also it should always be easy to get an optimized build to keep unfair advantage to a minimum.

Problem 3:
100% agree. Asymmetrical maps need not be 100% balanced. You get both sides anyway so it evens out in your stats and if you are concerned about rewards you can always skew them so that the expected rewards are equal for both teams.
I would love tools and a mapping contest. You can always restrict people to the objects and textures that you made to prevent legal problems.

Problem 4:
What you describe is not at all like dota2 or team fortress! Dota only sells cosmetic items (=> color schemes, colors and cockpit items in mwo). All mech and weapons would be free. Also dota has no meta-game leveling, so no chassi grind ...
Also keys for chests are not the single revenue machine anymore. You can buy everything on the community marked and/or in the store. I doubt it would work here since dota has much larger playerbase and the store runs on community generated items. There are freelancers earning their living by making items for dota2 that get sold in the store.
In contrast to that we don't have enough cosmetic content to sell here and if we sell ingame advantage the playerbase will not be happy.

If there is indeed a cashflow problem I would consider lowering prizes. Honestly mwo is crazy expensive. Selling single colors for 5$ and mech for 10+$ O_o. I have dropped money on the game but I never had the feeling that made a good trade in every single transaction. I bought regardless to support them, but I never got the value I paid for. If you leave this feeling in your customers they are not likely to repeatedly buy stuff, so better prizes seems the only option. e.g. I would like if colors were sold in bundles, schemes unlooked on more than a single chassi, prizes for stock mechs significiantly lower etc.

#17 FREDtheDEAD

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 07:48 AM

View PostSybreed, on 21 April 2014 - 06:58 PM, said:

Problem #1
Ghost heat. While it technically accomplishes it's intended purpose, it is a convoluted, illogical mechanic

#1 It's a horrible kludge that makes no sense and really limits builds. You could do pretty much the same anti-alpha thing by doubling (or something) heat generation amount and dissipation speed. That would stop multiple large/hot weapons from being fired together.

#18 Malcolm Vordermark

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 08:17 AM

#1) Hardpoint sizes does nothing but change which mechs have the best hardpoints and then expands the gap between the heavier and lighter mechs. Whether or not a mech can mount a PPC becomes a very big deal.

#2) I see no way to balance DHS against SHS without creating arbitrary seperations that would really only impact new players who don't have as many mechs to play with. Older players will continue to play their upgraded mechs until they can upgrade their new ones... unless they just want to play against the new players with not upgraded mechs.

#3) All in favor of more maps that are more varied.

#4) Mech bays are the only purchase I consider to be required and their price is reasonable. If the other items are over priced people won't buy them until they come down (noticed a lot of hero and color sales lately).

Looking forward to your comments on Gauss and ECM.

#19 AntiCitizenJuan

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 08:18 AM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 22 April 2014 - 12:28 AM, said:

yeah because PPCs cause 15 points of front loaded damage for no heat with the best range and fastest projectile in the game with a totally borked heat system.......oh wait..... that's the Gauss.


Its almost like every single meta build in the past year included the Gauss Rifle and not the PPC

wait a second

#20 General Taskeen

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 08:50 AM

Interesting topic Sybreed. I look forward to reading your updates you mentioned.

Another caveat for me, is the general way they handle converting something from TT into the game, but not other things, which is a jumbled topic of its own. Where TT is meant to be balanced for what it is, but picking and choosing stuff that is balanced in its own way from that game and then adding or changing something about it real-time is a detriment to balancing a MW game.

Like the PPC min range, without adding any PPC capacitor functionality. Or Jumpjets that aren't anything like BattleTech jumpjets where they should be programmed for maneuverability purposes over their intended distances. Weapons like LB-X that have no slugs (regular rounds), and bunch of other annoyances.

Edited by General Taskeen, 22 April 2014 - 08:52 AM.






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