51 replies to this topic

[Relic1701]

Sized Hardpoints, suddenly, the Com-1D & Rvn-2X become attractive being able to mount a large energy weapon!

[A banana in the tailpipe]

FupDup, on 22 April 2014 - 10:02 AM, said:

Lights haven't been the meta in a loooong time, and when they were it was 3 ML + 2 SSRM2 ECM Ravens during the lagshield days.

Today, though? Not really. The meta now is heavies and assaults using front loaded alpha strikes, staying exposed just long enough to hit you but not long enough for you to get a good bead on them (at least, that's how the experienced ones try to play).



Bro, do you even Shadow Hawk? (Or Griffin, for that matter). The only mediums inferior to 2 ERLL lights are the bad mediums like the Trebuchet and Cicada.

No actually I don't shadowhawk (or griffon) because that requires being the "me-too" crowd. I march to my own beat. Ironically since you bring up the treb, that's the only mech I've cleared the 800+ damage range on because it's so well rounded I abuse meta baddies on hot maps. Cicada is the perfect example of what a light should be, because lights take the same firepowered but have half the profile to be shot at.

[FupDup]

lockwoodx, on 22 April 2014 - 10:08 AM, said:

No actually I don't shadowhawk (or griffon) because that requires being the "me-too" crowd. I march to my own beat. Ironically since you bring up the treb, that's the only mech I've cleared the 800+ damage range on because it's so well rounded I abuse meta baddies on hot maps. Cicada is the perfect example of what a light should be, because lights take the same firepowered but have half the profile to be shot at.

The Shadowhawk might be widely regarded as the king of the mediums, but that's not because the Shad is some kind of metabeast. It's because most of its competition is bad. It sucks to say it, but it's true. Most of the mediums in this game are mediocre right now. It isn't the Shad's fault that its classmates are underperformers. As for the Griffin, it is a pretty good medium but not truly "the king" like the Shad. Piloting one is hardly being "conformist." But if you really want to have a good medium while "marching to your own beat" you can probably try Wolverines. They do pretty decently although aren't quite up to Griffin or Shad standards.

As for the Cicada, I think that it's not about lights being somehow OP. I think it's that the 'Cada is just mediocre and should be buffed. For lights to be actually OP, you'd have to see them spammed constantly and eclipsing other classes. But they don't. The bread and butter of nearly every team consists of mechs over 60 tons. Lights (and mediums) appear fairly often, but they rarely make up a large portion of the team. "True" meta players like the House of Lords (the guys who say LORD TRYHARD ggclose) pretty much always run assault mechs or Cataphracts if that serves as any indication.

Edited by FupDup, 22 April 2014 - 10:17 AM.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

FupDup, on 22 April 2014 - 10:14 AM, said:

The Shadowhawk might be widely regarded as the king of the mediums, but that's not because the Shad is some kind of metabeast. It's because most of its competition is bad. It sucks to say it, but it's true. Most of the mediums in this game are mediocre right now. It isn't the Shad's fault that its classmates are underperformers. As for the Griffin, it is a pretty good medium but not truly "the king" like the Shad. Piloting one is hardly being "conformist." But if you really want to have a good medium while "marching to your own beat" you can probably try Wolverines. They do pretty decently although aren't quite up to Griffin or Shad standards.

As for the Cicada, I think that it's not about lights being somehow OP. I think it's that the 'Cada is just mediocre and should be buffed. For lights to be actually OP, you'd have to see them spammed constantly and eclipsing other classes. But they don't. The bread and butter of nearly every team consists of mechs over 60 tons. Lights (and mediums) appear fairly often, but they rarely make up a large portion of the team. "True" meta players like the House of Lords (the guys who say LORD TRYHARD ggclose) pretty much always run assault mechs if that serves as any indication.

The cicada is just as good as any medium or light.. It app depends on if you get targeted first, and they do.

As for mediums... they all do well. The problem is this game isn't 3/3/3/3 yet so they get stomped by mouthbreathing assaults.

Edited by lockwoodx, 22 April 2014 - 10:17 AM.

[FupDup]

lockwoodx, on 22 April 2014 - 10:17 AM, said:

The cicada is just as good as any medium or light.. It app depends on if you get targeted first, and they do.

That's not a Cicada issue, that's a focus fire issue. Focus fire is OP.

lockwoodx, on 22 April 2014 - 10:17 AM, said:

As for mediums... they all do well. The problem is this game isn't 3/3/3/3 yet so they get stomped by mouthbreathing assaults.

I tend to prefer Role Warfare over enforced team compositions because it lets everyone be equally useful while keeping mech strengths/weaknesses very distinct. People would try out the robots under 60 tons more naturally if the game wasn't just a Solaris deathmatch arena....

http://mwomercs.com/...-3-role-warfare

Edited by FupDup, 22 April 2014 - 10:19 AM.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

FupDup, on 22 April 2014 - 10:18 AM, said:

That's not a Cicada issue, that's a focus fire issue. Focus fire is OP.



I tend to prefer Role Warfare over enforced team compositions because it lets everyone be equally useful while keeping mech strengths/weaknesses very distinct. People would try out the robots under 60 tons more naturally if the game wasn't just a Solaris deathmatch arena....

http://mwomercs.com/...-3-role-warfare

The only people who dislike 3/3/3/3 are "raid leaders" who know they will have to sit good pilots to make room, and "good pilots" who are only good at one tonnage weight and/or one particular mech. Our clan is amost at a civil war over such issues because so many of them are meta whores.

[FupDup]

lockwoodx, on 22 April 2014 - 10:22 AM, said:

The only people who dislike 3/3/3/3 are "raid leaders" who know they will have to sit good pilots to make room, and "good pilots" who are only good at one tonnage weight and/or one particular mech. Our clan is amost at a civil war over such issues because so many of them are meta whores.

Actually, there are more people than "raid leaders" that see issues with 3/3/3/3. For one thing, 3/3/3/3 doesn't do much to balance out mechs within a specific class. For example, who would use up one of your team's light slots on a Locust instead of a Raven or something? Or a Dragon instead of a Jagermech?

Additionally, it does not do much to balance the classes themselves. As I mentioned earlier, the reason people spam fat robots is because this game is essentially a Solaris arena right now. Our sole objective is pretty much to just stomp everyone we meet and we only get decent C-Bill payouts for stomping. Heavy and assault mechs just so happen to have the natural set of strengths that coincides with this objective. Role Warfare means there would be things like scouting that is actually necessary, commanding, etc. that different classes are best at (i.e. lights would be best scouts usually, etc.) and there would be more ways to contribute to your team than just crushing the enemy.


Is 3/3/3/3 better than doing nothing to our current state of the game? Sure. But it also isn't as good as true Role Warfare that gives a natural reason to diversify rather than outright forcing it.

Edited by FupDup, 22 April 2014 - 10:28 AM.

[Bilbo]

FupDup, on 22 April 2014 - 10:28 AM, said:

Actually, there are more people than "raid leaders" that see issues with 3/3/3/3. For one thing, 3/3/3/3 doesn't do much to balance out mechs within a specific class. For example, who would use up one of your team's light slots on a Locust instead of a Raven or something? Or a Dragon instead of a Jagermech?

Additionally, it does not do much to balance the classes themselves. As I mentioned earlier, the reason people spam fat robots is because this game is essentially a Solaris arena right now. Our sole objective is pretty much to just stomp everyone we meet and we only get decent C-Bill payouts for stomping. Heavy and assault mechs just so happen to have the natural set of strengths that coincides with this objective. Role Warfare means there would be things like scouting that is actually necessary, commanding, etc. that different classes are best at (i.e. lights would be best scouts usually, etc.) and there would be more ways to contribute to your team than just crushing the enemy.


Is 3/3/3/3 better than doing nothing to our current state of the game? Sure. But it also isn't as good as true Role Warfare that gives a natural reason to diversify rather than outright forcing it.

If you knew for a fact that you weren't going to have to face 6 assaults on the other side, you might be much more inclined to do so. The extra speed the Dragon allows would actually be useful again. Honestly can't think of a reason to take a locust though, unless I was actually forced to.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Real Role Warfare, with deep specialization of task best suited to certain kinds or classes of mech, really can't happen as many people imagine it. Sure, far more complex mission types with far more interesting objectives would lend themselves to certain kinds of mechs (mediums are great for convoy raids, heavies are better than assaults as convoy escorts, etc.), but ultimately the core reason for several entire mech lines simply doesn't exist in MWO, and is unlikely to be possible unless CW takes on a far more detailed unit management system than I anticipate.

Simply put, cost is not a factor. Repair and Rearm has its proponents, and in a certain respect would promote certain less expensive builds, but ultimately unless you're putting a c-bill limit on drops (or some other system, like a heavily modified battle value formula or assymetrical drops based on total weight/cost/bv/whatever) you will not see most mediums, or the very light lights (Locusts and Fleas and such). You won't see Urbanmechs or Thorns or anything else meant to be a very-low-cost alternative that uses numbers to make up for lack of individual value.

[FupDup]

Bilbo, on 22 April 2014 - 10:33 AM, said:

If you knew for a fact that you weren't going to have to face 6 assaults on the other side, you might be much more inclined to do so. The extra speed the Dragon allows would actually be useful again. Honestly can't think of a reason to take a locust though, unless I was actually forced to.

If you want a fast heavy, the Quickdraw has much better hitboxes and jump jets. Although, "fast" heavies in the first place are a strange concept when you could be gunboating like a more "traditional" heavy. I'd personally rather grab my Shad or Griff if I wanted speed.

[Lootee]

I don't understand why they haven't added a Capture the Star League Thingamajig game mode for the larger maps.

At match start the Macguffin spawns in a random location. Your team will need fast scouts to find it. Some mechs with big engines to drag it back to base and meatheads to protect it.

Instant role warfare and almost every other PvP game out there has a CTF mode.

[Pjwned]

ACH75, on 22 April 2014 - 08:09 AM, said:

I think that engine's weight scaling has to be adjusted a bit...

Many lights mech can pair long range weapons while still equipping the bigger XL engine they support and it's not fair!

While I agree that engine weight could probably use to be adjusted a bit, if a light puts an XL engine in that makes their torso considerably more vulnerable.

Quote

150Kph + tiny shape + twin long range weapons + JJ + ecm + lag shield + twin strike modules seems to me very OP cause they have all the advantages the game can offer without sacrificing
almost nothing...

You can't have all of those things though, in particular you can't have jump jets, ecm, and 2 long range weapons on the same mech because it either doesn't have jumpjets (the cicada, which is also slower and bigger) or it can't fit 2 long range weapons (the spider) and like I mentioned you can only go that fast with a big XL engine. Those mechs also don't have very much firepower and likely have some heat issues, and aside from the spider (which has even less firepower) they're really not all that small.

Edited by Pjwned, 22 April 2014 - 10:45 AM.