65 replies to this topic

[Daekar]

So I just bought my third Jenner, a JR7-D, and outfitted it with a 300XL, Endo, FF, 4xSPL, and 2xSSRM2 before I ran out of cash - no DHS. I dropped into two matches, the first at the HPG was bad but I did like 150 damage by staggering my laser and streak fire (weighted heavily towards the missiles!) before shutting down in front of several enemies.

Next match was Terra Therma. I literally did 43 damage and shut down after firing two salvos of missiles and two alphas of SPLs. How in the Sam hell are you supposed to play a mech with SHS? I mean, I have plenty of mechs to choose from, but not everyone does. If this is what it was like before they started using custom Champion builds for Trial mechs, I can't even imagine how many people dropped two or three times and said "screw this game," especially because there is nothing that tells you what you should do to stop your mech from totally sucking.

Are there any plans to change this? Or should I just consider every mech a deathtrap until I've totally ripped it apart and upgraded everything? I don't remember it being this bad back before DHS were in. I was using small pulses, after all!

[FupDup]

Daekar, on 21 April 2014 - 04:23 PM, said:

Are there any plans to change this?

Daekar, on 21 April 2014 - 04:23 PM, said:

Or should I just consider every mech a deathtrap until I've totally ripped it apart and upgraded everything?

Edited by FupDup, 21 April 2014 - 04:26 PM.

[wanderer]

The answer, thanks to PGI's borked heat system?

You don't. The only viable SHS designs are really stuff like Gaussjagers that don't generate appreciable heat to begin with. Heck, even DOUBLE heat sinks are nerfed in MWO.

[Pjwned]

99% of any practical build features DHS because SHS is garbage, and it's stupid. I've already expressed my somewhat severe displeasure about it in other threads so I'm not going to go into a huge rant, but as it is now there's basically no point in even having SHS aside from having a significant DHS tax to replace it.

[Kassatsu]

The only mech I run SHS on is a locust. It's the 4x machine gun build. I'm surprised they don't overheat it.

Edited by Kassatsu, 21 April 2014 - 06:46 PM.

[OneEyed Jack]

DHS are supposed to be an upgrade. This isn't like choosing between an iPhone and an Android. It's like choosing between an iPhone and a 1980's briefcase brick-phone.

[Jin Ma]

They really do need to buff it so theres more of a tradeoff between single and double HS

Edited by Jin Ma, 21 April 2014 - 06:59 PM.

[Jack Avery]

The only thing I ever made work with SHS was the AWS-8Q with stock weapons and engine. Add ES for four additional heat sinks and stagger fire. It actually was workable heat-wise, but with a Std 240 that thing was too damn slow to even get to the fight half of the time.

So yeah, SHS work if you carry about 30 of them if you aren't using ballistics. Which means they don't really work at all...

They really need to not suck quite so bad, it's shameful.

[Carrioncrows]

To fix them you would have to go to:

1.7 Heat efficiency Internal
1.2 heat external.

But Nope.

[White Bear 84]

Pjwned, on 21 April 2014 - 06:44 PM, said:

99% of any practical build features DHS because SHS is garbage, and it's stupid.

SHS is the poor mans DHS.

[GalaxyBluestar]

OneEyed Jack, on 21 April 2014 - 06:54 PM, said:

DHS are supposed to be an upgrade. This isn't like choosing between an iPhone and an Android. It's like choosing between an iPhone and a 1980's briefcase brick-phone.

actually you're supposed to be playing tonnage or critslots when you choose to build with either tech. some builds like heavies and assaults take big guns {lots of crit slots} and then get more heat capacity by being able to fit twice as many SHS as they could fit DHS. energy builds of old profited from this method in olden days.

MWO is different you can now bypass this by saving slots via your engine. just by upgrading you boost the heat contianment, then 3 DHS in the engine gives you 6 crit slots that would've usually taken up parts of you mech in old MW games. then compare this on a basic build compared to a mastered build. the gains are exponential, that is why SHS has no chance, the goalposts have been changed to how they worked build wise and via this system even PGI realised how well DHS benifited so instead of fixing the system they nerfed DHS still leaving the system broken. why? because c-bill sinks that's why they want you to play more and force you to upgrade everything, can't have things being fair between tech choices or balanced now can we?

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 21 April 2014 - 07:02 PM.

[Daekar]

OneEyed Jack, on 21 April 2014 - 06:54 PM, said:

DHS are supposed to be an upgrade. This isn't like choosing between an iPhone and an Android. It's like choosing between an iPhone and a 1980's briefcase brick-phone.

Oh, I know! But if the comparison were accurate, then the briefcase phone would've dropped calls every 30 seconds and had a battery life measured in heartbeats - they didn't, we had one. In fact, voice quality on that old phone was better than any I've ever had on my smart phones.

For the comparison to be accurate, the SHS need to be good at something. They're actually good at nothing. I guess it just bothers me how BAD the stock loadouts are in this game.

[Pjwned]

OneEyed Jack, on 21 April 2014 - 06:54 PM, said:

DHS are supposed to be an upgrade. This isn't like choosing between an iPhone and an Android. It's like choosing between an iPhone and a 1980's briefcase brick-phone.

There's no point in offering a choice then unless you think worthless money sinks are good design.

[wanderer]

GalaxyBluestar, on 21 April 2014 - 07:02 PM, said:

MWO is different you can now bypass this by saving slots via your engine. just by upgrading you boost the heat contianment, then 3 DHS in the engine gives you 6 crit slots that would've usually taken up parts of you mech in old MW games. then compare this on a basic build compared to a mastered build. the gains are exponential, that is why SHS has no chance, the goalposts have been changed to how they worked build wise and via this system even PGI realised how well DHS benifited so instead of fixing the system they nerfed DHS still leaving the system broken. why? because c-bill sinks that's why they want you to play more and force you to upgrade everything, can't have things being fair between tech choices or balanced now can we?

Actually, MWO works the same way as TT for storing sinks in your engine.

What's happening is total heat generation is higher, so the gap between SHS and DHS is a yawning chasm. And that's entirely PGI's fault.

Oh, and the entirely backaswards "some heatsinks are better than others" bit. All the current system means is that AC's are low heat and wreck face, while lasers fall in behind for "low ammo" in the form of crippled heat removal.

You'd likely have to make SHS something like 1.5, flat to make it a tradeoff even worth considering. They exist solely as placeholders in stock designs pre-3050, waiting to be upgraded.

[OneEyed Jack]

GalaxyBluestar, on 21 April 2014 - 07:02 PM, said:

actually you're supposed to be playing tonnage or critslots when you choose to build with either tech. some builds like heavies and assaults take big guns {lots of crit slots} and then get more heat capacity by being able to fit twice as many SHS as they could fit DHS. energy builds of old profited from this method in olden days.

MWO is different you can now bypass this by saving slots via your engine. just by upgrading you boost the heat contianment, then 3 DHS in the engine gives you 6 crit slots that would've usually taken up parts of you mech in old MW games.

Um... BT has always had HS integral to the engine in the exact same numbers as MWO. It's actually directly ported from TT construction rules, using the same numbers. Literally the only difference is that there's more freedom in engine rating in MWO, allowing one to bump to the next multiple of 25, rather than limiting it to multiples of mech tonnage.

Pjwned, on 21 April 2014 - 07:26 PM, said:

There's no point in offering a choice then unless you think worthless money sinks are good design.

Who said anything about choice? It's an upgrade. Have you never seen shooters with flat-out upgrades, where you have to earn the right to use the next level of gun/armor/scope, whatever, and then buy them for increasingly ridiculous prices? This is actually a pretty mild money sink. The stock mechs are (mostly) taken from the IP. If you have a problem with that.... sorry? Don't play games based on pre-existing IPs? What the hell do you want me to tell you?

It also has nothing to do with my opinion on money sinks. I didn't design it. But I don't have a problem with it because it's not that bad and I got better things to do than whine about having to spend pretend money if I want an upgrade. [Edit] And I also understand the need for "useless money sinks" in F2P games to encourage people to spend actual money to alleviate the burden.

Edited by OneEyed Jack, 21 April 2014 - 07:43 PM.

[Solahma]

absolutely zero upgrades in my Banshee-3M

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...63634a9686f737b

2nd round in it

Other than an energy heavy assault mech, it's impossible to perform extremely well without DHS and Endo-Steel. Just avoid piloting it until you have saved the CBills to add at least DHS, then work for Endo-Steel if your build uses it (most likely). Same for Ferro (light only typically)

As said above, they are UPGRADES. They are not meant to be balanced with trade-offs between different systems. That is what reflective and reactive armor is supposed to be, but we don't have that.

Edited by Solahma, 21 April 2014 - 08:01 PM.

[Lynx7725]

I highly encourage every veteran Mechwarrior to build and try one mech with 3025 tech only. I.e., no upgrades, no new weapons (ER, pulse, Ultra, LBX, streaks), no new equipment (BAP, Artemis, GECM). It's a hilarious learning curve, as in pain-ha ha, not funny-ha ha.

Yes, I've tried in it a Cataphract-4X with either twin AC10s or twin AC5s. You can win games in it... but you better be a cagey ******* and learn to run like hell at the first sign of things going south. Why did I do it? Well I now have a very good appreciation of the difference between 3025 tech and 3050 tech. Which prepares me for the shock that is 3050 tech and Clan Tech.

SHS can work, if you build very carefully. Even with upgraded tech, there are certain edge cases where the space efficiency of SHS overrides the weight efficiency of DHS. This is usually at the Atlas class, where you can stuff all the crit spaces full of SHS and gain a marginal improvement in heat dissipation over DHS.

[GalaxyBluestar]

OneEyed Jack, on 21 April 2014 - 07:39 PM, said:

Um... BT has always had HS integral to the engine in the exact same numbers as MWO. It's actually directly ported from TT construction rules, using the same numbers. Literally the only difference is that there's more freedom in engine rating in MWO, allowing one to bump to the next multiple of 25, rather than limiting it to multiples of mech tonnage.

wanderer, on 21 April 2014 - 07:35 PM, said:

Actually, MWO works the same way as TT for storing sinks in your engine.

was comparing MW of olds functionailty to MWO. didn't mention TT anything. i think we can agree the translation from TT to FPS has flaws in it. which is PGI's fault.

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 21 April 2014 - 08:38 PM.

[Durant Carlyle]

GalaxyBluestar, on 21 April 2014 - 08:36 PM, said:

was comparing MW of olds functionailty to MWO. didn't mention TT anything. i think we can agree the translation from TT to FPS has flaws in it. which is PGI's fault.

Old MechWarrior games (at least 2 and 3) followed the tabletop heat sinks rules to the letter, including optional heat sinks stored in engine.

[GalaxyBluestar]

Durant Carlyle, on 21 April 2014 - 08:43 PM, said:

Old MechWarrior games (at least 2 and 3) followed the tabletop heat sinks rules to the letter, including optional heat sinks stored in engine.

i don't remember adding extra heatsinks to engines in MW2 or 3. anybody have a screenie showing a 375 engine with 5 extra heatsinks in it?