73 replies to this topic

[Clit Beastwood]

Alternatively, you could bring along your own goodies to counter it, or don't be so reliant upon LRMS.

[Flaming oblivion]

Flaming oblivion, on 24 April 2014 - 12:27 PM, said:

I'm not a fan of ecm, And before people come in shouting about the ways to counter it not all are in the know how, I cant tell you the horror ecm causes pugging in the lower end of the elo bracket. because if they put ecm on every chasis and every mech , Everyone would have it what would be the point , Halve the team would have counter turned on the other scramble urgo no one would have ecm

Didn't say it would break the game I hate everything about ecm as it stands. Simply said if every mech could get it they would, invisibility who wouldn't want that.

I said it needs nerfing I agree but making it available to every mech ? NO.

So you enter a match 24 people all have ecm , 6 on each side disrupt the other teams ecm 6 hide there teams signals, everyones visible what's the point?

I don't think ecm should make it unable to target you simply saying making it available to everyone as it is now is pointless.

[Revorn]

ECM is a pice of OPness and unbalanced since it was introduced. No Fix ever has balanced it. Imho.

[Lyoto Machida]

LoneMaverick, on 24 April 2014 - 01:50 PM, said:

eww eww eww eww....eww.

"best way to fix something broken is to give it to everyone"

I'd much rather ECM just be taken out of the game, or perhaps we can balance it? Making it just negate bonuses from BAP/Artemis/TAG/NARC like it's supposed to instead of just being a team cloak might be a step in the right direction.

It would prove a point to the Devs, no? They'd get the data they need to realize something needs to be fixed.

As it stands...working as intended.

[Procyon Alpha]

I agree it needs to be redone, but I just don't see it coming anytime soon. But G-d please take away the stacking effect, it is complete BS. Does TAG or BAP stack f no they don't so wtf is ECM stacking for. Its just a point that is complete BS. I know its a bandage, but maybe they want something different than canon and its their game, but damn man cant you stop *(&(*&%$ the SSRM and LRMs beyond usefulness?

Just my opinion which means nothing, but I feel a little better...lol. Not really still a little pissed.

[Clit Beastwood]

Guys, as you progress and get better at the game, the perceived impact of ECM lessens. Adapt and overcome.

[Hawks]

Bilbo, on 24 April 2014 - 01:07 PM, said:

No, I'm saying allowing ECM on all mechs will eliminate LRMs and SSRMs from the game completely. It would simply be impossible to get a reliable lock on anything unless your running in a 12 man and can reliably coordinate ECM modes of operation.

Flaming oblivion, on 24 April 2014 - 02:17 PM, said:

So you enter a match 24 people all have ecm , 6 on each side disrupt the other teams ecm 6 hide there teams signals, everyones visible what's the point?

I don't think ecm should make it unable to target you simply saying making it available to everyone as it is now is pointless.

Come on guys, at least get your stories straight. If everyone's visible then how's it going to affect LRMs or SSRMs?

[Lyoto Machida]

Fierostetz, on 24 April 2014 - 03:33 PM, said:

Guys, as you progress and get better at the game, the perceived impact of ECM lessens. Adapt and overcome.

Exactly...you start taking less and less locking weapons.

[Pygar]

Yeshua Kerensky, on 24 April 2014 - 12:22 PM, said:

...can we just get ECM to not stack? Completely shutting down a weapon system by having 2 ECMs is a little over powered.

I like that idea. With all the ways ECM can be countered ECM doesn't bug me, but the stacking thing does- saw it used really well just recently in a 12 man, I was in a LRM boat equipped with TAG and BAP, others on my team fit with spotter gear too...and then D-DC blob rolled in on us. I actually hadn't thought about it very much since that happened, but yeah, that's pretty frustrating to have stuff that should counter ECM equipped, only to have it be wasted because your opponent can just spam more ECM mechs at you. (especially D-DCs)

Edited by Pygar, 24 April 2014 - 04:32 PM.

[Clit Beastwood]

Lyoto Machida, on 24 April 2014 - 03:59 PM, said:

Exactly...you start taking less and less locking weapons.

Or you carry a TAG, or a NARC, or run with a lance that does the aforementioned.

[Karl Streiger]

Best way to counter ECM.... simple
add a second Server Setting.

Time : 3017
Why?
Simple - even a LRM 5 shouldn't be useless because there is no AMS. But on the other hand a double LRM 15 on a medium Mech comes at a price - of low ammunition, low armor and bad heat sink systems.

People start to learn - the meaning of tactics - not the "importance" of the mechlab.

PGI can collect valuable server data - that are not clouded - by ECM or Artemis or AMS - and the ability of players to deal with that. they can also collect data about game time - weapon in usage - and the heat system.

Its much simpler to balance things in 3017 - simple because there is a working weight/crit/heat/range/damage system - that was torpedoed with the introduction of StarLeague Tech

[Grayblue]

The easiest fix I see is to make ECM work like, well..ECM.

The ECM is the game does not work like an ECM at all. Actual ECM does not work like a frickin cloaking device.

It makes target acquisition difficult, but it BRAODCASTS it's position since it is a device designed to generate electronic noise.

So, I understand a device that denies lock by electronic noise, and I can understand some sort of stealth device.

What I do not understand is ECM in the game doing BOTH.

Edited by Grayblue, 24 April 2014 - 11:11 PM.

[Strum Wealh]

Grayblue, on 24 April 2014 - 11:09 PM, said:

The easiest fix I see is to make ECM work like, well..ECM.

The ECM is the game does not work like an ECM at all. Actual ECM does not work like a frickin cloaking device.

It makes target acquisition difficult, but it BRAODCASTS it's position since it is a device designed to generate electronic noise.

So, I understand a device that denies lock by electronic noise, and I can understand some sort of stealth device.

What I do not understand is ECM in the game doing BOTH.

"The Guardian ECM Suite is a broad-spectrum jamming and electronic countermeasure device, designed to reduce the efficiency of enemy long-range scanning and surveillance equipment. The Guardian interferes with sensor readings, preventing identification at ranges of more than 180 meters. Closer than that, 'Mech pilots usually rely on their own vision in case their sensors cannot override the Guardian's jamming." - Technical Readout: 2750, pg.10

"The Guardian emits a broad-band signal that interferes with all sonar, radar, UV, IR, and magscan sensors. This signal projects a "cloak" to a radius of 180 meters, protecting all units within the circle. Enemy long-range sensors can find vehicles and 'Mechs within the curtain, but the Guardian obscures the reading, preventing identification. By the time the enemy gets within visual range, sensors can sometimes override the jamming, but most pilots rely on their own eyes." - Technical Readout: 2750, pg. 92

"The Guardian ECM suite is a broad-spectrum jamming and electronic countermeasure device designed to reduce the effectiveness of enemy long-range scanning and surveillance equipment. The Clans also use an ECM suite with the same capabilities in a lighter and smaller package. A unit can mount only one ECM suite.
An ECM suite has an effect radius of 6 hexes that creates a “bubble” around the carrying unit. The ECM’s disruptive abilities affect all enemy units inside this bubble, as well as any line of sight traced through the bubble. It has no effect on units friendly to the unit carrying the ECM." - Classic BattleTech Master Rules (Revised), pg. 136

"Around the end of the Reunification War, Johnston Industries (a Terran Hegemony company, working in partnership with Yelm Weapons of Fletcher) debuted the Guardian ECM suite on the newly deployed Nightshade VTOL. This broad-spectrum jamming and electronic countermeasure system revolutionized electronic warfare (EW). In a day when most communications and targeting systems had grown accustomed to a battlefield flooded by conventional electronic noise and counter-noise, the Guardian was powerful and smart enough to scramble all hostile electronics within a spherical “bubble” roughly 180 meters across. The Guardian could even adapt to and scatter contemporary EW packages like the Beagle Active Probe, Narc Missile Beacon and Artemis IV - all while simultaneously keeping friendly channels and targeting enhancers clear." - TechManual, pg. 213

Guardian has always had the 180-meter bubble, since it was introduced to BattleTech (via TRO 2750) in 1989 (which demonstrates that those posters who go around asserting things like "ECM should only protect you. Angel Suit ECM is another story." and "...see ECM not give blanket radar cover to nearby friendly mechs (that's supposed to be the separate Angel ECM equipment anyway)..." don't know what they're talking about with regard to BattleTech ECM systems ).

Guardian is - and always has been - described as essentially a combination of electronic radar jamming equipment, some degree of laser jamming equipment (to address IR & UV based lidar systems), an infrared countermeasures (IRCM) system (likely very similar to the planned CIRCM system), a sonar jamming system (see here and here), and some system meant to confuse magnetometers and magnetic anomaly detectors - everything listed other than the anti-MAD capability is a demonstrated, real-world technology.

While Guardian (and its descendants - Clan ECM, Angel ECM, and the ECM components of combined systems like Watchdog CEWS and Nova CEWS) would indeed generate an electronic noise that could theoretically be used to locate the source, both the IS and the Clans apparently did not include significant (or any?) anti-radiation munitions in their armories until the FedCom began to field the low-effectiveness Listen-Kill Missiles in 3038 & Clan Smoke Jaguar began to field the more-effective Anti-Radiation Missiles in 3055 (which the IS couldn't replicate until 3065).

On top of that, PGI utilized several of the advanced BattleTech gameplay rules from Tactical Operations in their implementation of Guardian (which is where things like the dual ECM/ECCM modes, the failure-to-detect condition, and Beagle's ability to "burn through" Guardian's jamming at short range come from), which made the PGI's Guardian implementation much more feature-intensive & complicated and which (IMO) is a large part of what's thrown so many people off.

[Burning Chrome]

Strum Wealh, on 25 April 2014 - 04:55 AM, said:

On top of that, PGI utilized several of the advanced BattleTech gameplay rules from Tactical Operations in their implementation of Guardian (which is where things like the dual ECM/ECCM modes, the failure-to-detect condition, and Beagle's ability to "burn through" Guardian's jamming at short range come from), which made the PGI's Guardian implementation much more feature-intensive & complicated...

None of which prevent you from being able to target and hit ecm equipped or protected mechs with LRMs or Streaks.

[mogs01gt]

What has been PGI's reasoning on the current design of ECM?

[Roadkill]

Strum Wealh, on 25 April 2014 - 04:55 AM, said:

IS and the Clans apparently did not include significant (or any?) anti-radiation munitions in their armories until the FedCom began to field the low-effectiveness Listen-Kill Missiles in 3038 & Clan Smoke Jaguar began to field the more-effective Anti-Radiation Missiles in 3055 (which the IS couldn't replicate until 3065).

LOSTECH

[Burning Chrome]

mogs01gt, on 25 April 2014 - 08:16 AM, said:

What has been PGI's reasoning on the current design of ECM?

"ECM", "PGI" and "reasoning"?

[Name140704]

Working as intended.


Buy MORE MC

[Odins Fist]

Yeshua Kerensky, on 24 April 2014 - 12:22 PM, said:

"Can We Get an Ecm Fix?"

Rename it Angel ECM, there ya go.

You know what you do if you see an enemy Mech without the magic red Dorito over it's head...???
ANSWER: You shoot it.

Running LRMs..?? Well, there are counters to ECM.

Been a non issue for me since ECM came out, but whatever.

Edited by Odins Fist, 25 April 2014 - 09:09 AM.

[Cannydog]

Roadkill, on 25 April 2014 - 08:22 AM, said:

LOSTECH

Apparently!

Me? I just want my SRMs to work. They shouldn't need "lock". Just get in their face, aim carefully, and BAM! But that doesn't currently work reliably with, or without, the presence of ECM on the battlefield. WTF is up with that...? So since PGI is hopeless at getting systems like that to work. I'd say its hopeless trying to get them to do anything reasonable with regards to ECM.

You guys are wasting your time anyways. We all know that the few Devs who play are Spider pilots in love with their ECM. So why should they listen to you if you don't know their street address...?