42 replies to this topic

[Lynx7725]

ProtoformX, on 24 April 2014 - 04:26 PM, said:

There's hardly any LRM boats at my Elo level. The pros still use direct fire. You know why? Because LRMs are still shit, even with their recent buff. They spread what little damage they've done around all the components of a 'Mech. I don't know about you, but I prefer to kill my opponents. LRM's are only good for killing newbs that stand in the open. What's really sad is that PPC's and AC's are even better at whomping newbs.

Shrug. I'll like to point out that me taking out the newbs standing in the open leaves you pros to go concentrate on killing other pros.. gaining a numerical advantage by quickly taking out players who made critical errors is part of winning games.

Sounds like a vulture, but hey... vultures gotta eat.

[Coralld]

Lynx7725, on 24 April 2014 - 07:07 PM, said:

Shrug. I'll like to point out that me taking out the newbs standing in the open leaves you pros to go concentrate on killing other pros.. gaining a numerical advantage by quickly taking out players who made critical errors is part of winning games.

Sounds like a vulture, but hey... vultures gotta eat.

I don't think it sounds like a vulture, I see it more like this...

In a fight, if you stick your neck to far out from the group, expect there to be more of the enemy team to take a swing at it with an axe.

It can also be compared to predatory animals vs prey. Stray to far from the herd, show bad judgment or weakness, expect to be pounced on.

[Arc Viper]

Hey, didn't I kill you in Tourmaline desert? Remember me? The 100 LRM stalker missile boat? The missiles were just my way of saying hi.

[Coralld]

Arc Viper, on 24 April 2014 - 07:37 PM, said:

Hey, didn't I kill you in Tourmaline desert? Remember me? The 100 LRM stalker missile boat? The missiles were just my way of saying hi.

He apparently didn't appreciate the shower of gifts you were giving him. Some people can be so callous.

[Z0MBIE Y0SHI]

Is there a way to see what kills you the most? The majority of my deaths (though I dont really keep track) seem to be from AC/PPC/ML

Also, because I love this song;

Edited by Z0MBIE Y0SHI, 24 April 2014 - 07:57 PM.

[Lightfoot]

The only time I have a problem with LRMs hitting my mech is when the other team is pushing through my team which has unwisely scattered themselves across the map. That's not the LRMs, it's the naivety of my teammates because they would be getting rolled no matter what the other team brought. Another time would be when my team fails to identify the mech boating LRMs and focus on it, if the other team brings only LRMs they are easy to overcome with direct fire.

Personally, I bring LRM25 and direct fire as this is more surviviable than being an LRM boat.

LRMs have a zone of power and are otherwise weak and the players I see having problems are not avoiding the zone of power, but running into it. Of course the skill of both players is a factor.

Edited by Lightfoot, 24 April 2014 - 08:05 PM.

[Ngamok]

[Damia Savon]

AC, on 24 April 2014 - 03:15 PM, said:

I feel the OPS pain. If the server collects the right mechs, you can have 6-7 LRM's boats on the enemy side. Combine that with the lame indirect targeting mechanic (where if a light mech glances at you, LRM's rain from the sky). And the fact that the LRM's fall on you about 15 degrees from vertical, and you are in for a very unfun match.

I have watched assault mechs melt in seconds in these types of matches. Also, having been the victim of this, the constant rain of so many LRM's, combined with screen shake, and smoke effects, basically grinds most graphics cards into the ground and causes the player to want to vomit on their keyboard.

Yea but honestly, how often does this happen anymore? It was going on a lot when 1) LRMs got a needed boost, 2) Narc was useful and 3) we had a missile boat stalker trial mech. Once LRMS were cut back again and the Stalker was removed we are back to the same PPC/AC meta type as always.

It sucks when it happens but you have to roll with it. Its is not every game and honestly there is a lot you can do to reduce LRMS. AMS is the most obvious one. It does help.

[Roadbeer]

This is serious business and it needs a poll.

[Lyoto Machida]

Ngamok, on 24 April 2014 - 08:08 PM, said:

I'm usually not a fan of Heffay's PGI white knighting on these boards but I have to admit that is pretty damn funny. Never actually watched it until just now.

[White Bear 84]

Ngamok, on 24 April 2014 - 08:08 PM, said:

Ah this brings back some LRM memories, haven't seen this in a while - love it!

Nice one

Edited by White Bear 84, 24 April 2014 - 09:25 PM.

[Pygar]

I have a couple default reactions to threads like this, I'll bet two pages in, that most of them have been covered...

...so I'm going to just take a minute to tell you, that you need to learn how to use the forum search function- we have many threads on this subject already, and you could just read them as many of us already have, rather than making a redundant thread.

[James DeGriz]

Damia Savon, on 24 April 2014 - 08:46 PM, said:

Yea but honestly, how often does this happen anymore? It was going on a lot when 1) LRMs got a needed boost, 2) Narc was useful and 3) we had a missile boat stalker trial mech. Once LRMS were cut back again and the Stalker was removed we are back to the same PPC/AC meta type as always.

It sucks when it happens but you have to roll with it. Its is not every game and honestly there is a lot you can do to reduce LRMS. AMS is the most obvious one. It does help.

Maybe it is indeed an ELO thing. In whatever bracket I'm in, I see it all the time. AMS, ECM, using cover I can never seem to make any of it work for me. Granted, my situational awareness isn't exactly top notch and I curse myself every time I take a wrong turn and find myself staring at 5 enemy mechs, but in my experience games just tend to be 10 minutes of my team mates and I playing peek a boo from behind whatever cover there is, until one side or the other clears down 4 or 5 players foolish enough to stick their heads above the parapet before advancing forward and making a full on roflstomp.

Sometimes I'm on the stomping team, more often than not I'm the stompee. Yes it's fun to stand in your ivory tower and shout "L2P NUB!", but that doesn't help the frustration some of us feel in the current meta, despite our efforts to circumvent it and why posts like the OPs are as common as they are.

Edited by James DeGriz, 24 April 2014 - 10:42 PM.

[Lynx7725]

James DeGriz, on 24 April 2014 - 10:41 PM, said:

Maybe it is indeed an ELO thing. In whatever bracket I'm in, I see it all the time. AMS, ECM, using cover I can never seem to make any of it work for me. Granted, my situational awareness isn't exactly top notch and I curse myself every time I take a wrong turn and find myself staring at 5 enemy mechs, but in my experience games just tend to be 10 minutes of my team mates and I playing peek a boo from behind whatever cover there is, until one side or the other clears down 4 or 5 players foolish enough to stick their heads above the parapet before advancing forward and making a full on roflstomp.

Sometimes I'm on the stomping team, more often than not I'm the stompee. Yes it's fun to stand in your ivory tower and shout "L2P NUB!", but that doesn't help the frustration some of us feel in the current meta, despite our efforts to circumvent it and why posts like the OPs are as common as they are.

The current meta isn't even LRM heavy, at least not in the timezone I play in. I see more long range firepower than LRM boats, to be very honest. Putting that aside... Objectively, let's take a look at what you say you are doing. Note that I don't think I've ever played with or against you, so all the following are just questions I have based on the above.

One, it's good that you are aware your situation awareness is not as strong, the next step is to improve on that. Are you looking at the mini-map before you commit to an advance? Are you tracking the intermittent target locks, target types, and likely motion? Are you tracking which enemy mechs have taken heavy damage and can be taken out quickly or neutralized with a legging or a side-torso shot?

You say you have AMS, ECM and cover, but we don't actually know how you are utilizing it -- but I presume you have enough experience to utilize those correctly. Are you doing 360 survey every now and then? Occasionally I'll turn and spot a lone enemy spotting for the enemy team, and I toss a few LRMs at him to discourage him. Are you locking the enemy up to spread the information to the team? Since I have to lock to toss the LRMs, invariably the information is spread to the team and invariably a few people would pound after the loner.

When you are going to move up to attack, are you communicating your intent or are you just taking off? Personally, as a second line support, I look for people who are on the move (on my mini-map), and then move over to provide close missile support (300m to 600m LRM fire). When my front elements contact the enemy, I do both suppression of target and suppression of enemy support, the point being to segregate out the target for my brawlers to kill. Does your team do that?

When assaulting defensive positions, I can sometimes be out there in front (Alpine uphill towards H10 is normal) doing suppression and throwback attacks with LRMs. I have indeed led successful attack uphill, in PUGs, against dug-in defenders, because I communicated the plan to the team even before the game started. Was there any such comms in your games?

When on defensive, I position myself in positions where I can rain suppressive fire down on choke points, and spot large enemy formations to break up their momentum. Does your team have people who do that? Do you know if your team have people who can do that?

Information Warfare (acquistion, communications and prioritization), operation planning, tactical fire support, target prioritization -- all these things I practice in PUGs. I don't always get it right... but I have to do it as a LRM support specialist, more so than usual than other tactical roles. If I'm sitting behind at 600+ meters lobbing LRMs at random targets of opportunity, or I'm in a medium flying LRM boat with 4 or 5 tons of LRM ammo running around randomly splashing people, then yes, the OP's and others' complaints about LRMs are valid and I should just hang up my LRM hat. But I'm not. I'm doing tactical close fire support. I'm doing it for an entire team, meaning I have to position myself to cover as much of the team as possible. I burn through 11 tons of ammo in decent games and want more, in order to properly support an entire team. (And that is on top of 24 tons of launchers...)

And that, in essence, is what I mean when I go "L2Play". The game is a team-based game. By default, any time you get hit by indirect fire LRMs, you are a victim of teamwork. That means any LRM specialists worth their salt is by default a team player. Yet a lot of the time the complaints I hear on these forums are from players who are out there on their own for their own... not team players. Not people who have learnt to play in a way that takes advantage of the entire team's assets, and contribute positively to it.

[Appogee]

Lynx7725, on 24 April 2014 - 11:19 PM, said:

long, reasoned, balanced, helpful post

I applaud the effort you put into providing a helpful response.

[James DeGriz]

Lynx7725, on 24 April 2014 - 11:19 PM, said:

*very helpful info*

Thank you Lynx for that. Like Appogee I above me, I do appreciate you taking the time to write such a long and detailed post. As to your suggestions, yes, I definitely use the minimap, if for no other reason to try and get a feel for where the team is heading, what my team mates comprises of build wise and how what ever it is I'm running can add to it.

I do like running fast mediums playing a "run n gun" game. If for no other reason these kinds of builds do suit me because if I do get in the smelly stuff, I can get out of it again quite quickly. (YLW 2ML 1 x AC20 has been my favourite mech for a long time, and before the DRG hit box and Gauss changes, I absolutely loved my DRG-1C and 5N). Also, again using the minimap, and a fast mech allows me to run to the aid of a team mate (s) if they're stuck in a brawl with a loner from the other team.

As to team communication, in the matches I've played, there is rarely any communication at all other than the usual attempts at humour at the beginning of the match, followed by the bitter complaints of people that are killed early on wailing about their "noob team". This is why I tend to use the minimap in the way that I do, as it's the best form of communication that gives me an idea of my teams intentions.

I've only relatively recently (within the last month or so) got back into MWO after a 12 month hiatus, so 12 mans, the new maps (Terra Therma, Crimson Straight, HPG Manifold) I'm still getting to know, which likely doesn't help my situation, despite my efforts to explore them in the training grounds.

I think the Eureka moment will be when I find out how I can break that "peek a boo stand off".

[Lynx7725]

Now that this is in K-town...

James DeGriz, on 25 April 2014 - 12:17 AM, said:

I do like running fast mediums playing a "run n gun" game. If for no other reason these kinds of builds do suit me because if I do get in the smelly stuff, I can get out of it again quite quickly. (YLW 2ML 1 x AC20 has been my favourite mech for a long time, and before the DRG hit box and Gauss changes, I absolutely loved my DRG-1C and 5N). Also, again using the minimap, and a fast mech allows me to run to the aid of a team mate (s) if they're stuck in a brawl with a loner from the other team.

I ran Dragons and YLW before, not so good in Dragons but the YLW is a nice build. As usual the key is to know the warfare role that the build is good for, and position yourself in the team accordingly. PUGs being PUGs, this is harder to achieve than it seems, but there are usually some good places to park a "SURPRISE!" AC20.

James DeGriz, on 25 April 2014 - 12:17 AM, said:

As to team communication, in the matches I've played, there is rarely any communication at all other than the usual attempts at humour at the beginning of the match, followed by the bitter complaints of people that are killed early on wailing about their "noob team". This is why I tend to use the minimap in the way that I do, as it's the best form of communication that gives me an idea of my teams intentions.

I agree on your observation. The point however, is to keep trying. Even though I don't get much return talk, asking simple question (Crimson: "Saddle or Tunnel?", Alpine: "Mountain grab?") can tell the entire team that there are considerations and everyone should try to work towards the common plan.

It honestly beats 4 people going to the Saddle, 5 to the Tunnel, and 3 lost hopelessly. At least if one or two says "Tunnel" the rest would normally follow suit.

James DeGriz, on 25 April 2014 - 12:17 AM, said:

I think the Eureka moment will be when I find out how I can break that "peek a boo stand off".

To be honest, this is exactly when that Medium LRM boat earns its pay. Something with a decent size rack, and fast enough, can flank the peek-a-boo lines and start strafing up and down the enemy lines. For example, the typical peek-a-boo situation is on Caustic; both teams hunker down to snipe across the volcano, and nobody can break the deadlock head on. Typically, this is when I wish I was in a medium LRM capable mech, as that would give me the mobility to flank around the long edge, get into a position with plenty of targets, and start strafing fire up and down the line.

This is dangerous work mind you, as the enemy would react quickly to attacks from the rear, and a lot will come hunting for you -- but that's the point, the idea is to break their lines and allow the rest of the team to come forward. That's why I prefer to work with a medium chassis, as it has both armour and speed to pull it off... getting there would be a problem as the mech would need to sneak into position. A light might be able to do it better, but may lack the firepower.

Tactical positioning of firepower can help to turn a static situation. Lacking the mobility though, typically we end up waiting for the enemy to lose their patience and attack frontally. Even an attack by 5 or 6 mechs can be turned back if the support mechs carefully spread their fire to cause the attackers to flinch back, leaving one or two to be chewed up by the brawlers. I've seen it happen before -- isolated an ECM Atlas who was leading the charge on Tourmaline, since I can't target him I could target his supporters and strip the Atlas of support -- but again, it has a bit of dependencies on PUG experience and comms.

[James DeGriz]

Oh yes, I loved Frozen City in the DRGs and YLW - run behind the enemy pop behind a building and stick an AC20 round up an assault mechs holiest of holies and by the time he's turned round to wonder "WTF", you're behind another building and out of sight. I guess with a 12 man on the smaller maps, that's much harder to do simply because everything's a little more crowded. Oddly when you mention the cross crater stalemate on Caustic, that's exactly the kind of peekaboo affair I had in mind!

I think I've probably been rather stubbornly trying to avoid using an LRM medium (had some fun with a Phoenix Griffin) because I feel like I'm just contributing to the problem as it were, but of course from the other side of the coin there is the old addage of "When in Rome..."

Maybe I just need to dig out my trusty old HBK-4SP and LURM it up.

[Agent of Change]

Well,

in case you hadn't

noticed your thread has now been moved

where it belongs.

It's intellectual

and topical distinctiveness

(what ever little

there may be)

will be added to you

our own

I am AoC of K-town

there is no

preparation for this.

All Praise

the MODS for their wisdom.

nobody praise anyone for this:

Edited by Agent of Change, 25 April 2014 - 03:16 AM.

[Barkem Squirrel]

The mentality of most Cat pilots waiting for that moment to strike.