1821 replies to this topic

[TygerLily]

Right. I was actually just nerding out about this as it would relate to a stock mech 'league' tournament or a RISK/Marik Civil War style game (play battles in private lobby, wins there affect a map, etc. etc.)

It came from working with BlackPhoenix01 (and Queenblade) on rules for his Battle Grounds League idea:

http://mwomercs.com/...ds-league-idea/

I believe you are right though: too unwieldy for the shifty SMM stuff. I was mainly interested in how you all thought the number shook out.

Edited by TygerLily, 13 May 2015 - 09:06 AM.

[Crotch RockIt]

TygerLily, on 13 May 2015 - 08:52 AM, said:

Hey guys, I shall make a concerted effort to play with you guys some more. School, life, burnout...all contributed to my absence.

I also wanted to ask for some input on my attempt at BV for MWO stock mechs. I think it turned out fairly accurate!

https://docs.google....dit?usp=sharing

The method to my madness:

Spoiler

- I took in to account how much armor a mech had versus how much it could take.
- How many weapon groups/types a Mech had. (Too many and you can't effectively use them all, thus wasted tonnage/potential)
- How much pinpoint damage the mech could do (via PPC and various autocannons)
- Ammo levels
- Speed
- Jump Jets
- How aligned were the quirks to the stock loadout (IE, Hunchy 4G: great quirks for AC/20. Kintaro: LRM quirks but comes loaded with SRMs)
- Hitboxes

I got a final score. Took the Sarna/TT BV upper and lower limits. Found an even increment to make each numerical step in the score for each weight class.

Cut all the extremely "bad" (in MWO terms) variants by 75 or 50% depending on "badness". Issues here ranged from not enough ammo, low armor count, etc. If a variant was slow, had lighter armor, but tons of weapons I called this 'bad' b/c you can't manage all the weapons well enough to compensate for slow and low armor. You'd generally be ignoring some portion of your weapons and thus I gave these 'bad' chassis a discount even thought they are rather serviceable.

How I came up with the BV to spend:
3/3/3/3 using the top chassis, total tonnage
3/3/3/3 using the worst chassis, total tonnage
best + worst / 2 = median BV

median BV is what you have to spend: 12,010.
For smaller groups, use 1000 BV per player.

I'm curious what sorts of 12-man drop decks you guys could post using 12,010 BV to spend. If you decide to tinker with smaller groups, that's about 1000 BV per player. (PS, using the "Tyger BV")

I'll bite. Here's a mobile, fast strike company I'd like to use. All 12 mechs have JJ and run at least 71 kph, speed tweaked.

SDR-5D 400 BV
SDR-5K 830
JR7-F 1055
TBT-5J 360
SHD-2H 590
GRF-1S 1065
GRF-1S 1065
CLPT-C1 720
GHR-5H 1260
GHR-5H 1260
VTR-9B 1700
VTR-9B 1700

TOTAL BV = 12,005 (5 BV unused)

3 superfast Lights for scouting and harassment. 2 main LRM mechs for long range bombardment with good laser backup (and 5 other mechs have backup LRM5's). 3 fast generalist Mediums. 2 generalist Heavies. And 2 Assault brawlers to anchor the company.

[Crotch RockIt]

Here's a slower, ground-bound, hard hitting company with one of each Hunchback variant, and one Locust for scouting.

LCT-3V 785
HBK-4G 1175
HBK-4H 1120
HBK-4SP 955
HBK-4P 1010
HBK-4J 700
JM6-A 360
CPLT-C1 720
TDR-5S 765
CTF-4X 1380
ZEU-6T 1140
AWS-8Q 1900

TOTAL BV = 12,010 exactly

[Ovion]

That reminds me, I should update the variants graphic for you guys.

[Crotch RockIt]

And here's an amusing company that takes advantage of what I feel is the undervalued JM6-A.

SDR-5D 400
KTO-18 700
GRF-1S 1065
GRF-1S 1065
JM6-A 360
JM6-A 360
JM6-A 360
JM6-A 360
AWS-8Q 1900
AWS-8Q 1900
AS7-D 1750
AS7-D 1750

TOTAL DV = 11,970

2 Atlai in the front line, supported by 2 Awesomes shotgunning 6 PPC's and 4 Jagers lobbing an LRM120, with 2 Griffins and a Kintaro guarding the flanks. Spider for scouting and harassment.

[TygerLily]

Crotch RockIt, on 15 May 2015 - 11:26 AM, said:

the undervalued JM6-A.

Thanks man. You think the Jager A is too low?

It scored low due to armor and ammo. About the same armor as a 50-tonner and only 12 shots per LRM15, and 37.5 shots per AC/2 (and at their rate of fire, that's nothin!) I can put out considerable damage for a moment but then it's toast...which seems like a nice trade off if it's also cheap!

Edited by TygerLily, 15 May 2015 - 11:49 AM.

[Tesunie]

I also find the Hunchback 4J to be undervalued, but if you want me to run in a less valued mech I'm all for it! (It could also just be me on that one...)

TygerLily, on 15 May 2015 - 11:48 AM, said:

Thanks man. You think the Jager A is too low?

And don't forget it runs HOT too. I tried running it stock when I first bought one... (and then landed on Terra Therma for my first match.)

[TygerLily]

Heh, it got gigged for ammo level and hitboxes. But, it is pretty solid.

[Tesunie]

TygerLily, on 15 May 2015 - 12:43 PM, said:

Heh, it got gigged for ammo level and hitboxes. But, it is pretty solid.

It has two tons of LRM ammo, and decent hit boxes consider it's a hunchback. But as I said, it could just be me and when it's in my hands... It's the "pefect" match for my play style and skill sets after all.

[Bishop Steiner]

Tesunie, on 15 May 2015 - 12:09 PM, said:

I also find the Hunchback 4J to be undervalued, but if you want me to run in a less valued mech I'm all for it! (It could also just be me on that one...)



And don't forget it runs HOT too. I tried running it stock when I first bought one... (and then landed on Terra Therma for my first match.)

that 4J is prety toasty on single heat sinks, too

TygerLily, on 15 May 2015 - 12:43 PM, said:

Heh, it got gigged for ammo level and hitboxes. But, it is pretty solid.

Ever consider running a TT stock armor event just to see what TTK is with TT values? It'll never be tru TT with doubled internals, but just a thought.

[Crotch RockIt]

TygerLily, on 15 May 2015 - 11:48 AM, said:

Thanks man. You think the Jager A is too low?

It scored low due to armor and ammo. About the same armor as a 50-tonner and only 12 shots per LRM15, and 37.5 shots per AC/2 (and at their rate of fire, that's nothin!) I can put out considerable damage for a moment but then it's toast...which seems like a nice trade off if it's also cheap!

The Jagers are the worst stock Heavies, but they are not 1/3 as good as the best Heavies. Three Jagers are more than a match for one 'Phract, for example.

I'd increase the Jagers and the BJ-1X 50%.

The 8Q isn't the best stock mech, only because of the slow speed that makes it tough to keep min range on the PPC's. Still a crazy good mech, though.

The Banshees are a bit too high, also. Great armor and speed, but not enough weapons to justify the BV, IMO.

[Crotch RockIt]

Upon further reflection, I think the general issue is that you overvalue the PPC. Several PPC mechs seem a bit too highly valued, maybe about 5-10% too high.

[TygerLily]

Crotch RockIt, on 15 May 2015 - 02:05 PM, said:

The Jagers are the worst stock Heavies, but they are not 1/3 as good as the best Heavies. Three Jagers are more than a match for one 'Phract, for example.

I'd increase the Jagers and the BJ-1X 50%.

The 8Q isn't the best stock mech, only because of the slow speed that makes it tough to keep min range on the PPC's. Still a crazy good mech, though.

The Banshees are a bit too high, also. Great armor and speed, but not enough weapons to justify the BV, IMO.

True, the Jagers would be a good buy BUT you're sacrificing 3 players to get there as well. Yowch! Another way to think about it is: putting a good loadout in the hands of 1 pilot would be infinitely better than spread across 3 because of coordination. Because 1 guy can direct his firepower alone.

Also, imo, I've never liked the imaginary scenarios when people compare a two mechs in as if they are in a 1v1 scenario because it's never that way in a real fight. By the time you're at 1v1 both mechs can be at any level of ammo/armor/etc. from the previous few minutes in the game. I think that applies to the 3v1 and 1v1 examples you gave with the Awesome and Jagers. The "discount" however was pretty arbitrary so I think making them a higher value could be in order.

- 8Q has great quirks to go with it's massive pinpoint, plus max armor.

- Banshees have empty arms to go with all that weapons which gave it a boost in the hitbox category, good quirk alignment, and having few weapon groups to manage, and pinpoint damage all added pluses.

Crotch RockIt, on 15 May 2015 - 02:14 PM, said:

Upon further reflection, I think the general issue is that you overvalue the PPC.

- I rated all pinpoint weapons the same but ac's generally rely on ammo and a lot of stock mechs only bring 1 or 2 tons which gave it a gig in ammo. PPCs don't have that problem so they get high marks in pinpoint but no penalty in the ammo dept.

Bishop Steiner, on 15 May 2015 - 01:02 PM, said:

Ever consider running a TT stock armor event just to see what TTK is with TT values? It'll never be tru TT with doubled internals, but just a thought.

DUDE, yes! We did this (basically half-armor) one night and I, personally, thought it was great fun. The only bad thing was that the pinpoint weapons were almost increased in their effectiveness...but it did allow those ammo-hindered mechs to do something! Like the C4 Cat...two LRM20s with only 2 tons of ammo per is usually bad but here kind of murderous!

We only tried it once though because I think only half thought it was fun/yeaokay and the other half HATED it. xD

PS, I appreciate all the feedback!

Edited by TygerLily, 16 May 2015 - 11:12 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

TygerLily, on 15 May 2015 - 08:45 PM, said:

True, the Jagers would be a good buy BUT you're sacrificing 3 players to get there as well. Yowch! Another way to think about it is: putting a good loadout in the hands of 1 pilot would be infinitely better than spread across 3 because of coordination. Because 1 guy can direct his firepower alone.

Also, imo, I've never liked the imaginary scenarios when people compare a two mechs in as if they are in a 1v1 scenario because it's never that way in a real fight. By the time you're at 1v1 both mechs can be at any lefel of ammo/armor/etc. from the previous few minutes in the game. I think that applies to the 3v1 and 1v1 examples you gave with the Awesome and Jagers. The "discount" however was pretty arbitrary so I think making them a higher value could be in order.

- 8Q has great quirks to go with it's massive pinpoint, plus max armor.

- Banshees have empty arms to go with all that weapons which gave it a boost in the hitbox category, good quirk alignment, and having few weapon groups to manage, and pinpoint damage all added pluses.



- I rated all pinpoint weapons the same but ac's generally rely on ammo and a lot of stock mechs only bring 1 or 2 tons which gave it a gig in ammo. PPCs don't have that problem so they get high marks in pinpoint but no penalty in the ammo dept.



DUDE, yes! We did this (basically half-armor) one night and I, personally, thought it was great fun. The only bad thing was that the pinpoint weapons were almost increased in their effectiveness...but it did allow those ammo-hindered mechs to do something! Like the C4 Cat...two LRM20s with only 2 tons of ammo per is usually bad but here kind of murderous!

We only tried it once though because I think only half thought it was fun/yeaokay and the other half HATED it. xD

PS, I appreciate all the feedback!

about ppcs/ballistics I think velocity and range matter too, as well as heat. All things being equal, even though they weight more, ac10s tend to be more effective than PPCs because they don't punish you as heavily for missed shots, because in most cases ammo is less (even in stock) an issue in a furball than heat. The high heat and mediocre projectile speed, along with the minimum range are serious drawbacks, and probably outweigh weight and ammo, especially in single heat sink builds.

[Jaeger Gonzo]

We got too high RoF for TT armor. Thats what destroyed fun, even more then pin point.

[Crotch RockIt]

Jaeger Gonzo, on 18 May 2015 - 07:22 AM, said:

We got too high RoF for TT armor. Thats what destroyed fun, even more then pin point.

Good point, especially with the quirks.

[Tesunie]

Jaeger Gonzo, on 18 May 2015 - 07:22 AM, said:

We got too high RoF for TT armor. Thats what destroyed fun, even more then pin point.

Actually, the rate of fire isn't necessarily wrong. But, if we are to have this rate of fire, we need all weapons to cause less damage.

Example: Most weapons in BT are rated by how much damage it can deal in so much time. The AC2 can shoot any number of shots within 10 seconds, but will always cause 2 damage. The medium laser will, within 10 seconds, deal 5 damage and 4 heat.
What PGI could do to balance their weapons out is:
- ACs shoot single shots (like current), but each shot would be reduced by the rate of fire. (AC2s may shoot 4 shots in 10 seconds, dealing 0.5 damage a shot.)
- Gauss may shoot a single shot in 10 seconds, for 15 damage. But, after that shot fires, you have 10 seconds of no gauss rifle. This would encourage less boating of the weapon, as people will want to continue to fight in that time span.
- Lasers could shoot like they do now, but you would divide the max potential damage in 10 seconds (back to back shooting) so it will cause their full damage in 10 seconds. (Example: Medium laser might shoot 3 times in 10 seconds. It would deal 1.6 points of damage for each shot, and create 1.3 points of heat. Within 10 seconds of continuous, that med laser would deal 5 points of damage and 4 points of heat.)
- Missile weapons could shoot in controlled "bursts". What I mean is (and this is the more questionable part), SRMs would shoot in sets of 2 and LRMs in sets of 5. What this means is, if you take an SRM6 and shoot it, each trigger of the fire button would release 2 SRMs. The SRMs also would reload in sets of 2 (probably every 10 seconds). So, you could choose to fire 2 SRMs every 3 seconds to keep a steady stream going, or rapidly shoot all your SRMs from the launcher and wait for it's full 10 second reload time. (Burst vs sustained.) LRMs would shoot in bursts of LRM5s, like how SRMs do. This would make larger launchers more desirable (particularly for LRMs) for "the rain" effect, and would aid SRMs and LRMs in reducing spread of their weapons. (Suddenly, the larger launchers become useful again, and make sense to take in the game over smaller launchers.)

Of course, ammo would have to be increased so it can deal proper amount of damage per ton of ammo.


With these changes, they probably could remove double armor, increasing thresholds for the heat cap, ghost heat, etc. It would increase the time to kill, making matches, and mechs, survive longer. Sniper weapons become better for snipping, while weak for brawling (slower recharge times, but higher instant damage). Heat would increment up slower, making heat scale a bit more balanced. It also should feel and act more like how we would expect in lore.

However, I think this would be too drastic of a change by this point, and would not be expected to be implemented into the game... (But it would make stock builds suddenly make more sense.)

[Jaeger Gonzo]

In BT medium laser deal 5 demage for 3 heat Teseuni,
Thats why ML currently in MWO is unusable on non quirked mechs that made it actually 3, like QKD. And that is true for public and even more for our stock games.

10 sek is actually really loong for a game like this, That is why they have rise RoF, the way of thinking of dev team is: more shooting, more action, more fun. Less sim like slow boring game play. But the thing in my opinion actually went out of control with mods and quirks leading too much to power creep.

[Tesunie]

Jaeger Gonzo, on 19 May 2015 - 03:53 AM, said:

In BT medium laser deal 5 demage for 3 heat Teseuni,
Thats why ML currently in MWO is unusable on non quirked mechs that made it actually 3, like QKD. And that is true for public and even more for our stock games.

10 sek is actually really loong for a game like this, That is why they have rise RoF, the way of thinking of dev team is: more shooting, more action, more fun. Less sim like slow boring game play. But the thing in my opinion actually went out of control with mods and quirks leading too much to power creep.

My bad there. I knew they increased the medium laser heat one point higher over TT, but forgot to add that into my numbers... (But I think you got the idea at least. In the med laser example, it would be 1 heat instead of 1.33 heat per firing of the laser, if it could shoot 3 times in 10 seconds.)

If they kept their current reload times (for most weapons at least), and adjusted their damage to be the max damage over 10 seconds (instead of per shot), they could probably remove many things that they added into the game to try and balance it out. That includes quirks and ghost heat.

Of course, my theory would need to be tested first, but I think the idea would have a decent start, and bring things more in line with lore. (Of course, some things may still need to be adjusted. As we already know, TT =/= First person shooter. Some changes will have to be made anyway for the translation.)

[Sergey Kosinskiy]

We could vote for this, i mean why not?



http://mwomercs.com/...only-modequeue/

Edited by Sergey Kosinskiy, 22 May 2015 - 12:28 AM.