30 replies to this topic

[Tereva]

Hi guys,

What is considered the best -or one of the best - missile boat ? Stalker 5 M & Catpult A1 ?

Having fun right now with a Orion VA, how does it compare against those ?

Also when I check the STLK-5M on smurfy, on the side torso it says M x6
6 is for 6 tubes ?
But you can still fit a LRM15, how does that work ?

Thx for the help

Tereva

Edited by Marvyn Dodgers, 28 April 2014 - 02:52 PM.

[990Dreams]

A boat for you

~28 salvos. Each salvo carries 65 missiles.

[Tereva]

DavidHurricane, on 27 April 2014 - 11:53 AM, said:

A boat for you

~28 salvos. Each salvo carries 65 missiles.

That was fast, thx !
No Artemis ? Isn't work sacrificing some ammo to fit one ?

Edited by Tereva, 27 April 2014 - 11:55 AM.

[990Dreams]

Tereva, on 27 April 2014 - 11:55 AM, said:

That was fast, thx !
No Artemis ? Isn't work sacrificing some ammo to fit one ?

Sure.

39 salvos. 60 missiles per salvo.

Edited by DavidHurricane, 27 April 2014 - 12:01 PM.

[Modo44]

You have the sweet spot. The Orion can really make it rain while remaining decently mobile and hard to kill at the same time. Lighter boats (50 and 55 ton mediums) are squishy and can not bring as many missiles (neither per salvo nor salvos). Assault boats can not tank for the team well and are dead in the water when the team happens to move fast. The closest alternative is the Catapult, C1 or C4 for the ability to bring TAG along, or A1 for the cheesy 6xALRM5 build (very deadly with a solid team, very dead if the enemy has too much ECM or good light pilots). The Cat has better mobility and is more XL-safe at close range than the Orion, but its ears tend to blow up, and the CT is even easier to hit than on the Orion. (Being an easy target often also makes you a priority target.)

Edited by Modo44, 27 April 2014 - 12:18 PM.

[Darwins Dog]

I'm not a fan of the A-1 because it has no backup weapons. Same goes for DavidHurricane's Stalker. Unless you are on teamspeak with people who are willing to be dedicated escorts for you, you will get eaten alive by Jenners. Stalkers and the one Awesome can put out the most missiles at once, but they are basically fixed artillery. You will need a spotter to TAG/NARC targets for you.

Other catapults are very good. I like the C-4. You don't really need more than 30 missiles at once, plus it has space for 4xML or 3xML and TAG. Jump Jets are also a bug plus.

I also like the Trebuchets, since they have the speed to let you stay in ideal range (300-500 meters).

[Egomane]

Here is how I would build my Stalker (and actually did, but don't count on my ammo being in exactly those places, as I switch it around from time to time):
- It has secondary weapons to defend itself with
- 39 salvos of 50 LRM each + one salvo for 30
- It functions while an enemy ECM is around
- It provides an AMS to the team
- it didn't skimp on armor (at least not much)

Unlike the Stalker builds above (sorry David!), it is not trying to squeeze an LRM-20 through a six-tube launcher. The heat efficiency is worse, but only because the medium lasers are included. You rarely use both weapon systems at the same time.

You can replace one of the medium lasers with a TAG to breach opposing ECMs. You can replace one DHS for CASE for the better protection. Once you do these modifications, It'll look like this.

I'd never recommend a pure LRM boat or one without a Beagle Active Probe. One light mech, will be enough to take you out in such a mech. If it comes equipped with ECM you are completly helpless and useless to the rest of your team.

While others swear on it, I find Artemis to be overrated and not worth the extra tonnage.

[xMEPHISTOx]

Do not generally like the idea of all missiles on a mech as it is a liability primarily if in solo pug battles. But on occasion I do play a CPLTA1 built with only missiles. Generally try to take missile mechs that have other weapon systems so as to be able to defend myself and/or faster build to be able to defend with speed and maneuverability.

Catapult A1 - Missiles/BAP/Artemis/JJ [smurfy]http://mwo.smurfy-ne...50f751c0aec99a3[/smurfy] -

Griffin 1N - Missiles/Artemis/ML's/Speed/JJ GRF-1N

Catapult C1 - Missiles/Artemis/Tag/ML's/BAP/JJ CPLT-C1 -

Don't have it on Smurfy but used to play a 733P w/LRMs/Artemis/LLs/MLs which used to work pretty well for me when used to play it.

Edited by xMEPHISTOx, 27 April 2014 - 03:46 PM.

[I C Wiener]

Egomane, on 27 April 2014 - 01:02 PM, said:

Here is how I would build my Stalker (and actually did, but don't count on my ammo being in exactly those places, as I switch it around from time to time):
- It has secondary weapons to defend itself with
- 39 salvos of 50 LRM each + one salvo for 30
- It functions while an enemy ECM is around
- It provides an AMS to the team
- it didn't skimp on armor (at least not much)

Unlike the Stalker builds above (sorry David!), it is not trying to squeeze an LRM-20 through a six-tube launcher. The heat efficiency is worse, but only because the medium lasers are included. You rarely use both weapon systems at the same time.

You can replace one of the medium lasers with a TAG to breach opposing ECMs. You can replace one DHS for CASE for the better protection. Once you do these modifications, It'll look like this.

I'd never recommend a pure LRM boat or one without a Beagle Active Probe. One light mech, will be enough to take you out in such a mech. If it comes equipped with ECM you are completly helpless and useless to the rest of your team.

While others swear on it, I find Artemis to be overrated and not worth the extra tonnage.

this

[Dredhawk]

I happen to like the A1 with 2 LRM 15 and 4 SSRM2...Problem with the A1 is all it Weapons are in the arm so it easy to get strip of your weapons

[Koniving]

As Egomane said, if you use a Stalker you don't want to try and squeeze lots of missiles through small tube numbers if you want an efficient killer. Now if you want a DPS earthquake-making build then shove your 20s into it.

Otherwise an efficient LRM Stalker is the 3H with its twin 20 tube launchers + its twin 5 (6) tube launchers to get an easy LRM 50 in a single wave without any punishment from Heat Scale (ghost heat). That completely overwhelms AMS. Has a bit of spread too. The low number of energy hardpoints keeps you efficient. 4 MPL chain fired or 4 ML fired in pairs will stave off any harassing light.

Catapults, Thunderbolts, Orions, Victors (and Awesomes) Victors (because more), Griffins, Shadowhawks, Wolverines, and Huginn can also be some pesky LRM boats. Even the JM6-A (Jagermech) can do it.

Honestly a better LRM boat than the Stalkers from my perspective is the Battlemaster with the 4 missile ports. It and the Highlander 733 are my favorite boats. When I want cash, that's what I go to. But those are the only variants of those two chassis that are good for that task. The others you will need to find other niches to fill.

Of the two, the Battlemaster is faster and able to defend itself well against lights too (due to 3 ML). The 733 Highlander is only sporting an ML and AC/2 for defense and relies on others to deal with lights; but it tanks so well that I lead combat charges with that LRM boat.

Battlemaster. (Fairly recent.)
Highlander. (An older vid; but it's the same Highlander that I used in the example for the "My terms not yours" tactical tip.)

Edited by Koniving, 27 April 2014 - 02:25 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Egomane, on 27 April 2014 - 01:02 PM, said:

While others swear on it, I find Artemis to be overrated and not worth the extra tonnage.

I'm all for the rest of your post, but this part i wanted to comment on.

On a very large missile boat with multiple launchers, such as a Stalker, the tonnage/crit cost of Artemis is simply not worthwhile, as Egomane says.

However, if you're in a smaller LRM support mech - a Medium, or a Heavy - with few, large launchers, then Artemis can make a noticable difference at a minimal payload cost.

For example, i tend to run ALRM20 Griffons with much success - that single LRM20 launcher adds only 1 ton/1 crit to my build, but the tighter grouping makes the comparatively small 20 missile salvos more effective.

Likewise, on a catapult running 2 15 tube launchers, Artemis is quite helpful.

But once you're looking at 4+ launchers, the cost of Artemis in terms of tons and crit slots is too high; you're getting a heavy missile density where you want it purely through volume of missiles. You're far better off with backup weapons, and at least BAP and TAG, instead of the extra tons/slots to Artemis. And, for gods sake, bring TAG and BAP. Without it, if you get shut down by ECM and are useless to your team, it's not big bad ECM's fault, it's your fault.

And, one gameplay tip:

In a PUG, don't expect everyone to hold targets for you. It's YOUR job to get and hold your targets. Because in order for your PUG mates to hold targets for you, they have to remain exposed themselves (and likely be targeted by enemy LRM mechs). This is fine if a player is a dedicated spotter and knows the risks, but it's totally unreasonable to expect random strangers to leave themselves open to enemy LRM fire (or even just direct fire) simply so you can fire from safety.

[Tereva]

Koniving, on 27 April 2014 - 02:05 PM, said:

As Egomane said, if you use a Stalker you don't want to try and squeeze lots of missiles through small tube numbers if you want an efficient killer. Now if you want a DPS earthquake-making build then shove your 20s into it.

This is why the Stalker 5M is not a good missile boat even if it has 5 launchers instead of 4 for the STK-F or 3H ?

[Redshift2k5]

Tereva, on 27 April 2014 - 02:53 PM, said:

This is why the Stalker 5M is not a good missile boat even if it has 5 launchers instead of 4 for the STK-F or 3H ?

Right, number of tubes is very important. The 5M has an extra missile hardpoint but it has one tube (for NARCs) and is useless for firing LRMs (single-fire LRMs are kinda funny but not what you're aiming for with a missile boat)

[Konril]

To answer a few of the questions.

The 6 tube hard points on the stalker's side torsos basically limit the number of missiles that can fire at once. When you mount an LRM 15 or LRM 20 there, firing the launcher will cause the salvos to be split. In fact, from what I observed of the Champion while it was one of the trial mechs is that an LRM 15 in the slot will fire 5 missiles, then 5 more missiles a half second later, and the final 5 missiles after another half second.

The Stalker is a well respected missile platform because it has the energy mounts to carry enough medium lasers to be a threat to anything that can get under the 180m minimum range (or if the missiles should run out). The low number of missile tubes actually does slow down the DPS output of the LRMs, so you do need to be careful of that. The Battlemaster (BLR-1S), Awesome (AWS-8R), or Highlander (Any of them), tend to be better at LRM boating for that reason. However the trade is that they don't have the energy points to really be able to defend themselves against a close in attacker, mostly.

Actually, I have had some really good results with the HGN-733P, 3 Medium Pulse Lasers provides good defense against lights that get close while the LRM launchers and TAG do most of the main work.
With Artemis (smurfy link)
With NARC (smurfy link)


Regarding whether Artemis is worth it or not, prior to March 18th I would have told you to get Artemis. Now it's a bit more complicated. When the Artemis launcher has a direct line of sight to the target, the missile spread will actually shrink to 2/3rd its normal size when approaching the target. That means more missiles will hit the target, and more missiles will hit the center torso of the target. An Artemis LRM (ALRM) 15 is actually deadlier than a standard LRM 20, while needing less weight, space, and ammo. But that is only when you can get a direct line of sight to the target. When firing indirectly at opponents your teammates have targeted but you can't directly see, then Artemis missiles aren't any better than standard missiles. That also means that Artemis missiles are risky to use. If you can see the target, the target can also see you, and it doesn't take much time at all for PPCs, lasers, and autocannons to hit.

In fact, in some cases Artemis can be worse. The NARC missile beacon will provide the same accuracy bonuses that the Artemis system can provide, without needing a line of sight to the target. However, the bonus only applies to standard missiles. So when firing at targets spotted by a NARC beacon, standard missiles can actually do better than Artemis missiles. That is, the standard missiles will get the tighter cluster from the NARC beacon, while the Artemis missiles will be spread out since they don't qualify for the NARC accuracy bonus and don't have line of sight when fired indirectly. With NARC now guaranteed to last 30 seconds after it hits (instead of falling off when the NARC afflicted mech is damaged), you can get 5 or 6 missile salvos from the safety of cover after a NARC hit. So it is now the better system. But at 3 tons + ammo and a missile slot required, it may also be the more expensive system. It's also harder to use. So it is still rare.

[Tesunie]

My thoughts? Why boat?

My Stalker 3F does very well, and it's not boating LRMs, yet still have enough to be a threat at range. Up close? Still deadly, even against the fast mechs. Best range, 180-270m. (Current damage per match is 615 (7.24 damage per match per ton), with a K/D of 18.00. Played only 11 matches with the new stats though...)

My next best preforming mech with LRMs is my Griffin 3M. Built on similar principals as my Stalker design. (Current damage per match is 407 (7.40 damage per match per ton), with a K/D of 1.50 out of 47 matches so far with new stats.)

Results may vary, but for the way I play, these work very well for me.

[Lyoto Machida]

I use the BLR-1S (50 tubes/2x15/2x10), AWE-8R (60 tubes/4x15), ON1-V (50 tubes/2x15/20), ON1-VA (50 tubes/2x15/2x10) and various 30 tube mediums.

I use Artemis on all of them except some of the mediums, with TAG and BAP (most of the time). Get up close and use them as direct fire while they're brawling with a teammate for best results. With the increased missile speeds, you can now afford to fire them from further back but I try to stay within 250m-400m from the enemy.

[loopala]

also learn to dumb fire. ie hit mechs with out lock. even with tag red team gets good ecm cover and you are screwed. now by dumb firing lrms you can at least shake the other team up. had a recent game were a tag and ecm equipped commando caused a bit of trouble in the back field. by dumb fire bracketing his position i was able to scare him off and stop the accurate lrm rain my team was experiencing. remember tag works both ways




i have found my happy place in the LRM world in a catapult C4. while i don't run a true boat per say, i do my fair share of damage, both at range and up close. i get way to aggressive to just boat lrms and hope for locks.

Edited by loopala, 27 April 2014 - 04:12 PM.

[luxebo]

Redshift2k5, on 27 April 2014 - 02:59 PM, said:

Right, number of tubes is very important. The 5M has an extra missile hardpoint but it has one tube (for NARCs) and is useless for firing LRMs (single-fire LRMs are kinda funny but not what you're aiming for with a missile boat)

While stock comes with 1 tube for NARC on the 5M, it's not 1 tube, it's 6. Also, the only real single tube missile launchers are on the RVN-3L and the TBT-7M. But this is good advice, tube number is important.

[Fut]

Egomane, on 27 April 2014 - 01:02 PM, said:

Here is how I would build my Stalker (and actually did, but don't count on my ammo being in exactly those places, as I switch it around from time to time):
- It has secondary weapons to defend itself with
- 39 salvos of 50 LRM each + one salvo for 30
- It functions while an enemy ECM is around
- It provides an AMS to the team
- it didn't skimp on armor (at least not much)

This looks like an LRM-Boat I'd like to try.
Very nice build!