50 replies to this topic

[Bad Frosty]

I fail to see the problem here. We are in agreement that to use cheap tactics costs honor. Okay, so you don't get anything if you use overwhelming force. You bid and you win honor, in this case EXP and C-Bills, or whatever. You screw it up and you win nothing. You can use arty, sure, but even if you win the match you get nothing for it.

Yes, the clans do make use of artillery and airstrikes. My favorite Clan is Hell's Horses, and nobody likes them because they use tanks in preference to mechs. Therefore, they didn't even get a slot in the invasion. Obviously, the clans as a whole have such a fixation on mechs and the superiority of their pilots that they are willing to overlook the advantage of using ten tanks to combat a mech of their combined value.

Let us not forget, the Clans are all about genetic superiority. To them, it is the nature of the genetically superior to either conquer or guide the rest of humanity. That's where their honor comes from. If they cannot be the best in a superior war machine, they are dezgra, fit only for solhama units. The old move aside for the new and superior.

In terms of gameplay perspective, that's how clanners should be treated. You can use arty and air, if you have to, but you gain no honor from doing so. Similarly, you get no honor from not making your bid. You get resigned to the same status as lesser clans. No matter how effective your tactics are, they fail to prove your unquestionable superiority, because you had to rely on those relegated to lesser roles.

If we go the other way and say clanners are allowed to do the same things IS mechwarriors are allowed to do, it subverts the entire mentality of the Clans. They are no longer genetically superior, they're just beating up on what, to them, must seem like a third-world country. All justification in their cause is lost. You don't just go about destroying the people Kerensky wanted you to protect because they are lost, else it defeats the purpose. You have to show them how superior you are. Warden and Crusader mentalities both abide by this, and thus they both rely on genetic superiority, with no thought to those who employ Hell's Horses tactics.

That said, there's also a reason the tactical clans can't rely on those tactics, and that reason is that they are vastly out-numbered. This is why Ulric went to the effort he did, and why Wolf's Dragoons were deployed prior to the invasion. They were sent to evaluate all the great houses of the Inner Sphere. The conclusion they came to was that no military conquest was possible or should be attempted. The Inner Sphere would never accept an invasion, and they would grind the clans down through sheer numbers if they had to. It may take five tanks and dozens of men to chew up an Omnimech, but the trillions who call the Inner Sphere home can eat the loss, while the Clans cannot.

From there the lore proceeds into the fictional fantasies of authors, most of whom wrote excellent books filled with all kinds of things people love, like intrigue and drama. But we're here now. This is the Inner Sphere of 3052, on the eve of the Clan invasion. Right now, they are vastly outnumbered by inferior but determined forces. They staked their hope of victory on the disunity of IS forces,

This is where I'm concerned because it has occurred to me that perhaps PGI took the idea of community gaming a bit too far and never factored in a balance system of any kind. Sure, clan mechs cost a lot of money, but kill me if I'm wrong, their price will come down. Sworn by my name, on this, the fourth of may, 2014. I think they're just assuming that the sheer price of clan mechs will limit their number, and I also think they paid no attention whatsoever to what effect that would have on the game. I've played with many great people in my short time here, but they are very serious about their Battletech. They want a game that reflects the lore they grew up with.

No, I don't think PGI will ruin the game. Ruining a game where giant robots blow each other up is about as hard as frelling up Pacific Rim. Even if they do nothing and just let Clan mechs dominate the field, the game will be successful. But what it will lose is the die-hard fans who made the universe come alive to begin with. In time, that will cost them, in the same way it did every other Mechwarrior game publisher.

I have spoken on the value of gameplay additions and customization recently. Check my profile if you wish, it's right there. I said they were great things, and they are, but you can't lose the storytelling element of gameplay. People want to be told a story, a good story, and they want to be part of it. What meaning has victory in a sci-fi universe if it is not in service to your favorite house, clan, or merc company? Just another FFA CoD victory? Yeah, you're great, but who cares?

I think I speak for all of us when I say that we, as Battletech fans, want to live the universe that was created for us. We want to live the things we read in books, or the various successes and failures we had in tabletop games. Even the newest of us don't want a repeat of FPS games they have played before. We need house and clan alliances, shifting borders, uneven odds, and a sense of achievement when we pull something off together as a team, or even as a merc.

This is why I disagree with the assessments that clans should be made the same. If they had been on equal footing with the IS in the novels nobody would have read them. They would have been the most boring thing ever. So goes the game. PGI, you are in the business of visualizing people's dreams. You have the chance to bring them to life, or just give us more of what we already had. Make the right choice and give us a reason to fight.

[Tekadept]

"The Clans" are a myth in MWO, there is just a new cash grab with mechs with omnimech "skins" coming out Soon tm.

[Rat of the Legion Vega]

They shouldn't be able use arty or airstrikes. Under any circumstances. It's dishonourable. Would be a great way to provide a balance factor in the I.S.'s favour thereby allowing Clan mech weapons to be a little stronger than PGI is probably planning.

[ice trey]

I hope the clans don't get Arty/Airstrikes, but instead get the ability to bring AI-operated Elemental Battle Armor onto the field that will attempt to swarm a targeted enemy, be it a Mech, Turret, or anything else.

Since all Clan mechs are currently Omnimechs, Being able to transport them into battle on your 'mech would be all the more interesting. Just like in BT, you wouldn't be able to use Torso-mounted guns while carrying a BA Squad, but most Clan Omnis are designed for just that purpose, which is why most of the guns are located in the vulnerable arms on just about every design.

Edited by ice trey, 04 May 2014 - 07:45 PM.

[Craig Steele]

Rat of the Legion Vega, on 04 May 2014 - 07:36 PM, said:

They shouldn't be able use arty or airstrikes. Under any circumstances. It's dishonourable. Would be a great way to provide a balance factor in the I.S.'s favour thereby allowing Clan mech weapons to be a little stronger than PGI is probably planning.

Why is it dishonourable?

[wanderer]

Kyle Wright, on 29 April 2014 - 12:41 PM, said:

So I had a crazy thought yesterday evening. In canon battletech Clans detest combined arms other than I believe Clan Hells Horses. I personally don't think Clans should be allowed to use the Arty or Air Strike consumables to meet canon. However I understand some will cry fowl. But as there weapons will be superior it my be a means to level the playing field.

What do you guys think?

Perfectly normal. Clan forces are frequently shown using aerospace assets for ground work, and 'Mechs like the Naga are literally walking artillery batteries with their dual Arrow IV launchers.

[Craig Steele]

wanderer, on 04 May 2014 - 07:47 PM, said:

Perfectly normal. Clan forces are frequently shown using aerospace assets for ground work, and 'Mechs like the Naga are literally walking artillery batteries with their dual Arrow IV launchers.

Clan forces are (in canon) more combined arms focussed than the primary comparitive IS forces.

Cluster (Mech, Aerospace + Infantry) vs Regiment (Mechs + Aerospace)

Both add additional "arms" at differing levels, but fundamentally the Clans are go to a lower org level with their Combined arms focus. (eg, Nova vs Batallion, in some Clans even Star vs Company)

[Sephlock]

Rofl, on 29 April 2014 - 12:52 PM, said:

I seriously doubt clan canon will be observed.

I HEREBY COIN THE TERM "CLANON"!

[Sephlock]

Also, if they DO adhere to canon, won't that mean that only Clan Hell's Horses will have some of the sweetest Clan tech available?

If so, there is going to be a mad exodus when the king of dakka arrives...

... wait... NO!

NOOOOOOO!

What I was thinking of was the Rotary Autocannon 10 and 20... which I now recall were made up by the mektek people (right?)

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

.

Well I guess there will be a mad exodus to Clan Diamond Shark, then. AFTER the intial exodus to the Fedcomm for THEIR rotary tech.

[Raggedyman]

I think we have to stop thinking of the Clans in MWO as "Battletech Clans", but rather as "Clan Lite".

• They aren't going to be in Stars
  
• They aren't going to be as individually powerful
  
• Their tech isn't going to be as powerful
  
• They aren't going to follow rules of engagement
  
• They are (most likely, not seen anything to say otherwise) going to be fighting with IC forces

Basically Clan Lite is going to be a slightly more expensive alternative playing style/set of skins that balances with Inner Sphere.

[5th Fedcom Rat]

People here are throwing out Clans with more liberal codes of honour such as Cloud Cobra, Hell's Horses and Diamond Shark as justification for using artillery. Those Clans are kind of irrelevant in the current timeline because they're not one of the original four invading Clans, who, by and large, did not use artillery. Even when Diamond Shark finally showed up they didn't do much fighting of any kind, just trading and supply work.

Sure Clan Wolf had a few Nagas in their touman but sources note they were rarely used. When Vandervahn Chistu used Arrow IV batteries to kill Ulric Kerensky (and nearly Vlad Ward) it was seen as incredibly shameful behaviour once it was brought to light and was grounds for him being challenged and killed in an honour duel. As Sarna writes: "When Ulric Kerensky's task force reached the Falcon world of Wotan, Chistu personally goaded Kerensky into a Trial of Grievance. This was actually a trap where Ulric and most of his escorts were killed by guided long range missiles, a complete breach of Clan law and tradition."

To use arty out of the blue by surprise in a Clan on Clan match would be similarly dishonourable.

Lately this game has descended into a contest between which side can spam more arty and airstrike consumables in a match for the win. It's really starting to negatively effect the gameplay at higher ELO levels, where, ironically, your aim is supposed to be more important but is actually less because you often just get decimated by enemy arty before you get to engage in mech on mech combat, the actual reason I thought people play this game.

The current level of arty spam is silly enough in an I.S. vs. I.S. battles, it will feel like even greater cannon violating cheese when done by people who are supposedly role playing Clan mechwarriors. We're not talking one or two Arrow IVs in a match, but continuous spam from beginning to end. That's the state of the game right now.

So competitively, arty is not an option currently. It has become a requirement for victory. If PGI won't reduce the effectiveness of their consumables because they need players burning through $$, they can at least help limit the stupidity by not encouraging/forcing Clan players to break universe continuity and join in the same spam contest.

.

Edited by 5th Fedcom Rat, 05 May 2014 - 12:45 PM.