25 replies to this topic

[Melissia]

The general idea is that while most equipment is available to any 'mech (which can hold it anyway; lighter 'mechs would obviously not be able to have four PPCs on them), the scout/assault/commander pilot classes would allow for specialized gear.


For example:

Scout:
-- NARC Beacons, makes target acquisition easier for homing missiles.
-- ECM Suite, disrupts radar.
-- Higher maximum jump jets, for more mobility.


Commander
-- C3 Master System, relays radar data between 'mechs.
-- TAG system, one-use system for laying minefields.
-- Advanced Radar System, for more intel.

Assault
-- Mine Detector
-- Higher max ammunition stores
-- Higher max heat sinks

It'd really depend on how they're doing customization, but it would be a nice way to encourage people to play their given roles.

[Adridos]

Melissia, on 16 November 2011 - 03:27 PM, said:

It'd really depend on how they're doing customization, but it would be a nice way to encourage people to play their given roles.

As long as it doesn't make your character a one class player, I'm fine with it. Encouraging to play their roles by denying them acess to other mech classes would be plainly bad, though.

[Melissia]

Well yeah, it's just the equipment I had in mind, not the 'mech classes. After all, you could for example have a heavy mech with an ECM suite (better to lay an ambush with!)-- or a light mech focused on assault (Shadow Cat or Nova/Black Hack, anyone?).

Edited by Melissia, 16 November 2011 - 03:37 PM.

[Captain Fabulous]

I don't think preferred class should matter. What would be the point of a light pilot buying 4 PPCs, anyways? It should be available to everybody, some would just make more sense than others.

(I think you could MAYBE mod a Jenner D to mount like 2 PPCs, by the way)

Edited by Captain Fabulous, 16 November 2011 - 03:40 PM.

[Melissia]

I think you missed the point of the thread entirely. The comment about PPCs was merely referring to weight, heat, and space limits on light 'mechs, it had little to do with the actual idea.

[Captain Fabulous]

I was replying to your example with my own example. I understand what you were saying, but I disagree with it. If I'm running recon for my lance, I feel like it'd be more pertinent for ME to have the Mine Detectors as opposed to the assaults, who should be bringing up the rear with fire support. I agree that (for the most part) certain weight classes should bear the responsibility of having those special items, but I don't think they should be weight exclusive.

[Mad Pig]

Great suggestion. I'd buy that for a dollar or two.

[Melissia]

Captain Fabulous, on 16 November 2011 - 03:51 PM, said:

I was replying to your example with my own example. I understand what you were saying, but I disagree with it. If I'm running recon for my lance, I feel like it'd be more pertinent for ME to have the Mine Detectors as opposed to the assaults, who should be bringing up the rear with fire support. I agree that (for the most part) certain weight classes should bear the responsibility of having those special items, but I don't think they should be weight exclusive.

.... you're still not paying attention.

My suggestion has nothing at all whatsoever to do with 'mech weight.

Ugh...

Edited by Melissia, 16 November 2011 - 04:32 PM.

[Captain Fabulous]

Melissia, on 16 November 2011 - 04:32 PM, said:

.... you're still not paying attention.

My suggestion has nothing at all whatsoever to do with 'mech weight.

Ugh...

You said pilot class (scout, assault, etc.) Generally, these would line with what mech you're actually going to pilot. Assault pilots would probably drive assault mechs. And weight/pilot class aside, my point still stands.

[Iron Horse]

I like the idea of laying mine fields!

[Bansheedragon75]

Captain Fabulous, on 16 November 2011 - 06:50 PM, said:

You said pilot class (scout, assault, etc.) Generally, these would line with what mech you're actually going to pilot. Assault pilots would probably drive assault mechs. And weight/pilot class aside, my point still stands.

Where did you get the idea that an assault pilot by default pilots an assault mech?
The term assault has nothing to do with what class of mech you pilot but rather the role you play in the lance.
The assault class here is the offensive role, and could just as well be a light or medium mech as an assault mech.

With the exception of the scout having the mine detector, I honestly dont see what your point has with the idea.
This has nothing to do with weapon loadout, but rather special equipment such as ECM, BAP, C3 and so forth.

He is talking about specialized equipment for designated classes.

You have become too focused on the example rather then the actual idea.

Edited by Dragonlord, 16 November 2011 - 11:12 PM.

[Melissia]

Captain Fabulous, on 16 November 2011 - 06:50 PM, said:

Assault pilots would probably drive assault mechs.

Why wouldn't an assault class pilot drive, say, a 50t hunchback? It's DEFINITELY an assault 'mech, and the extra ammo capacity would really benefit its heavy autocannon in extended fights-- despite the fact that it is not in the assault weight class, it's really most useful to assault type pilots. Its lack of jump jets makes it of limited use for a scout; similarly, it has little room for extra radar and coordination equipment of a commander, and really, a commander would probably favor a medium to long ranged 'mech anyway with their extended range radar and C3 master computer giving them information from other 'mechs radars. Then again, with other Hunchback variants, they could very well make use of such things!

Why couldn't a scout class, for example pilot drive a 90t Cyclops? It has room for advanced equipment, it has higher than average top speed, and excellent jump jet capacity. A good cyclops pilot could use the special equipment of the scout class to set up a vicious ambush against any lighter 'mech-- imagine chasing a light 'mech into an ECM field and then finding out OH CRAP the ECM'S ON A NINETY TON ASSAULT MECH! Especially if it's kitted out for short to medium range firepower, maximizing its damage potential A 55t Bushwacker BSW-L1 could provide nasty results for an ambush too with its short-ranged firepower (an LB-X AC/20 the prize piece) and its jump jets and speed having an advantage over picking the hunchback for the same purpose. Sure, the stereotypical "scouting" mech is a 35t jenner or raven, but still, doesn't mean other 'mechs can't make use of the scout-type equipment.

And there's no reason Command would be limited to light, medium, heavy, or assault mechs-- all of them have possibilities for use. Light 'mechs like the raven could be useful to the commander pilot for their ability to get out of harms way or react quickly to situations that show up on their C3 master computer, while a medium or heavy could be useful for their versatility, and an assault useful for its raw firepower and durability, providing fire support as they try to coordinate the lance. A 45t Shadow Cat would be useful for its gauss cannon's extended range combined with its speed and jump jets-- allowing it to react quickly and lend fire support at extreme ranges to its comrades. And the aforementioned 90t Cyclops would also be useful, as it was MADE for commanders anyway-- extended radar range, room for support equipment, and decent firepower at all ranges. The 55t Bushwhacker also has a nice set of weapons for a commander pilot with its mid-ranged AC/10 and its long-ranged ER large laser and twin LRM-5s.

Edited by Melissia, 17 November 2011 - 03:22 AM.

[Amechwarrior]

I was also hoping weight class and warfare role would be separated. Yea, you will get more lights in scouts. But like Melissia posted it gives designs like the Charger some interesting implications as a super-heavy scout. I think she was trying to say equipment that is now role-influenced like BAP and command suites would be limited to the appropriate role(Am I stating the idea right?). Instead of these parts being available to everyone, if everyone could get a BAP and ECM and use it "unskilled", it might not totally negate the scouts skill-set, but would servery blur the scouts role from everyone else. It helps each player feel their role is useful and different. This is a change from the "anyone can buy any part" of previous games, but then previous games were not role focused.

[Melissia]

Yeah, that's teh general idea.

-- Scout uses ECM and extra jump jets to enhance mobility, and equipment like NARC to tag enemies for other players to target with their missiles.
-- Command uses BAP and C3 Master Computer (with the other members having C3 Slave Computers) to coordinate the other members of the lance, and uses things like TAG to call down a small minefield to further help support the team.
-- Support meanwhile uses its enhanced ammo capacity and extra max heat sinks to add raw firepower to the lance, and along with Scout and Command supporting it, would be the lance's heavy hitter.



So let's make two examples:


Example 1: A fight in a hilly area
-- Raven driven by a Scout
-- Catapult driven by an Assault
-- Catapult driven by an Assault
-- Cyclops driven by a Commander

The Raven uses its ECM and jump jets to get in position, and marks the most important enemy target with NARC for LRM bombardment to start off the match. The Cyclops keeps track of nearby enemy targets with its BAP and C3 computer linking up with the Raven's radar to get a picture of what the Raven sees) and fends off lights/mediums attacking the catapults, coordinating fire from the catapults against them while the Scout acquires another target for them.



Example 2: A large forest clearing surrounded by hills.
-- Cyclops driven by a Scout
-- Jaegermech / Rifleman driven by an Assault
-- Jaegermech / Rifleman driven by an Assault
-- Wolfhound WLF-2H driven by a Command, modified to take a C3 Master and a BAP.

The Cyclops uses its ECM, the hills, and the forest as cover to move around to ambush the enemy's long-ranged 'mechs, while the two Jaegermechs/Riflemen take up strong firing positions with their long ranged weapons. The Wolfhound moves between hills and check for flankers, while taking pot shots with its PPC at enemies that try to get too close along with directing fire from the Jaegermechs/Riflemen at the enemy. Its BAP and C3 Master Computer are best used close to the Jaegermechs/Riflemen, where it can move to detect any ambushers or flankers and coordinate its lance to respond accordingly.




Of course, I'm sure others are much mroe creative than I when it comes to team setups (and each terrain would require something different!), but you can get the idea on how the various pilot classes would work together like this, without restricting any weapon or 'mech from any pilot type.

Edited by Melissia, 17 November 2011 - 04:34 AM.

[gilliam]

Why would the command pilot have the active probe? Advanced sensors are primarily for avoiding ambushes and scouting more effectively.

Personally, I don't really think we should have specific classes that we get locked into. I'd rather the skill tree have branches that improve broad aspects of our pilots that benefit our playstyle, but still let us effectively pilot most of the mechs out there. I also can't agree with having to unlock equipment in our pilots, improve maybe but there shouldn't be a restriction.

Edited by gilliam, 17 November 2011 - 05:45 AM.

[Havoc2]

Would these roles be trained by the pilot, or would you just click a role in a drop-down menu when picking your 'Mech in order to assign these control suites?

Do you propose that any electronics from 1 "class" be exclusive from another?

[Melissia]

I had in mind that you picked a role for a specific battle.

Dunno how an experience system could be added and work with this though, I'd hate to have outright better equipment unlocked. That'd have to really try hard to balance it out (Relic tried this route with DoW2's Last Stand gamemode, it was fun, but took a lot of patches to balance and stil needs more).

[Havoc2]

I know it doesn't sit well with most, but I think the only way that the devs could reliably control the "class" or "role" of a 'Mech would be to determine that certain chassis are capable of certain roles.

I.E a Raven is classified as a scout 'Mech. Someone who customizes its load out may choose to remove the scout electronics in favor of more weapons/ammo/heat sinks but an Atlas classified as an assault 'Mech can't remove armor in order to fit recon specific electronics.

*EDIT*

To expand on this, several chassis may be capable of multiple roles. So a Stalker could be classified as a support/command 'Mech. Capable of carrying either support equipment like TAG or BAP or command equipment (whatever is included in that list)

Edited by }{avoc, 17 November 2011 - 08:15 AM.

[Melissia]

}{avoc, on 17 November 2011 - 08:13 AM, said:

I know it doesn't sit well with most, but I think the only way that the devs could reliably control the "class" or "role" of a 'Mech would be to determine that certain chassis are capable of certain roles.

And you're wrong, I believe.

My method controls it far better anyway. Heck you can outfit a Raven to be a light attack 'mech. The RVN-4Lr for example isn't a scout, it's basically a scout-hunter, intended to take down light scouting 'mechs with its MML-7 (with ArtemisIV targeting), 3 medium lasers, and Stealth Armor. That's something an Assault class would use, as it gives up some of its scouting abilities to have the extra firepower. And then there's the Men Shen, a 55 ton raven on steroids-- the MS1-A for example has an LB-X AC/10, and three medium lasers along with a TAG, a rather respectable amount of firepower for a mech of its weight and speed (actually greater max speed than the Raven in fact due to MASC, and even without MASC it equals the Raven's speed). It could fit any of the three classes as well. So could the Shadow Cat.



Almost all 'mechs have variants that can fit any of the three classes, especially if you don't think of scout as "scout and only scout and nothing else" but instead "scout and ambusher". Removing these would really just dumb the game down, making i worse. I prefer the idea of giving each class a benefit instead of removing options entirely, especially when it involves iconic 'mechs which people have different opinions on...

Edited by Melissia, 17 November 2011 - 09:02 AM.

[Havoc2]

Melissia, on 17 November 2011 - 08:56 AM, said:

And you're wrong, I believe.

My method controls it far better anyway. Heck you can outfit a Raven to be a light attack 'mech. The RVN-4Lr for example isn't a scout, it's basically a scout-hunter, intended to take down light scouting 'mechs with its MML-7 (with ArtemisIV targeting), 3 medium lasers, and Stealth Armor. That's something an Assault class would use, as it gives up some of its scouting abilities to have the extra firepower. And then there's the Men Shen, a 55 ton raven on steroids-- the MS1-A for example has an LB-X AC/10, and three medium lasers along with a TAG, a rather respectable amount of firepower for a mech of its weight and speed (actually greater max speed than the Raven in fact due to MASC, and even without MASC it equals the Raven's speed). It could fit any of the three classes as well. So could the Shadow Cat.



Almost all 'mechs have variants that can fit any of the three classes, especially if you don't think of scout as "scout and only scout and nothing else" but instead "scout and ambusher". Removing these would really just dumb the game down, making i worse. I prefer the idea of giving each class a benefit instead of removing options entirely, especially when it involves iconic 'mechs which people have different opinions on...

Then what would stop people from putting fire-support, recon, and assault capabilities all in 1 package? What is the point of choosing a chassis if the only difference is aesthetic and any chassis could fit any role?