65 replies to this topic

[xMarshallx]

cobrafive, on 18 November 2011 - 11:57 AM, said:

Every time I have a bad day- which can be quite often- I'm going to create a new account from a free email site, start as an assault-class mechwarrior, and jump into as many games as I can teamkilling as much as possible.

You are under the assumption a new player can create an account and start as an assault. I am under the assumption that new users will be placed in a mech like, oh, a stinger sporting a MLsr and M.Gun. If he wants to try and backstab his teammates, I think they will have the last laugh. A good BattleTech game will rely on house influence and rank structure - backstabbing will be a non-issue if name reputation is king, which it was in every version of MPBT I was a part of, because if you burn your bridges ... well, nobody will want to play with you. (Now I am assuming, but I believe everyone will have a choice of who they drop into battle with and what not)

[CeeKay Boques]

The Sniper, on 18 November 2011 - 12:10 PM, said:

You are under the assumption a new player can create an account and start as an assault. I am under the assumption that new users will be placed in a mech like, oh, a stinger sporting a MLsr and M.Gun. If he wants to try and backstab his teammates, I think they will have the last laugh. A good BattleTech game will rely on house influence and rank structure - backstabbing will be a non-issue if name reputation is king, which it was in every version of MPBT I was a part of, because if you burn your bridges ... well, nobody will want to play with you. (Now I am assuming, but I believe everyone will have a choice of who they drop into battle with and what not)

Also, I will ban your IP. You can continue to smurf those, of course. But we can whittle out P'O'd kids, (who will have trouble spoofin) and just deal with professional griefers.

[CobraFive]

The Sniper, on 18 November 2011 - 12:10 PM, said:

You are under the assumption a new player can create an account and start as an assault. I am under the assumption that new users will be placed in a mech like, oh, a stinger sporting a MLsr and M.Gun. If he wants to try and backstab his teammates, I think they will have the last laugh. A good BattleTech game will rely on house influence and rank structure - backstabbing will be a non-issue if name reputation is king, which it was in every version of MPBT I was a part of, because if you burn your bridges ... well, nobody will want to play with you. (Now I am assuming, but I believe everyone will have a choice of who they drop into battle with and what not)

I created a thread asking and the devs responded directly saying you can start as assault.

And if I don't care about name reputation? Like I said, free-to-play games are a very different beast then MPBT, or previous Mechwarrior games. A quick trip through F2P shooters shows you this, trust me. Reputation is nothing, and you are not playing with people you know, and not playing with admins. Unless you are doing clan wars: In which case FF won't be an issue for obvious reasons.


Edit: IP-banning is an option to a point. Beside being a bit heavy handed you still then need a system to know who to IP-ban and when. Also, I have a dynamic IP which isn't uncommon at all.

But yes, if a system to detect FF is in and fair enough, IP banning would be sufficient IMO. It can be hard to work right and can be work for devs/GMs but its I would say, the 'standard' option.

PS: If its not completely obvious, I am speaking strictly hypothetically, I don't intend on teamkilling. But I've been really big into the F2P once it really started expanding and griefing has killed off the enjoyment entirely in quite a few shooters.

Edited by cobrafive, 18 November 2011 - 12:23 PM.

[Xhaleon]

The Sniper, on 18 November 2011 - 12:10 PM, said:

You are under the assumption a new player can create an account and start as an assault.

You can, actually. That is a confirmed feature. It's... somewhere in the forums.

[xMarshallx]

cobrafive, on 18 November 2011 - 12:17 PM, said:

I created a thread asking and the devs responded directly saying you can start as assault.

And if I don't care about name reputation? Like I said, free-to-play games are a very different beast then MPBT, or previous Mechwarrior games. A quick trip through F2P shooters shows you this, trust me. Reputation is nothing, and you are not playing with people you know, and not playing with admins. Unless you are doing clan wars: In which case FF won't be an issue for obvious reasons.

That is interesting if you can start assault (I actually have no problem with that) .. a plan will need to be put in place then and the rest of my argument goes out the window.

[MaddMaxx]

cobrafive, on 18 November 2011 - 11:57 AM, said:

Every time I have a bad day- which can be quite often- I'm going to create a new account from a free email site, start as an assault-class mechwarrior, and jump into as many games as I can team killing as much as possible.

And also no, I won't hit my eject button because you don't like me.

How does the system deal with me? Saying that I should RP as a merc isn't really a good counter to griefing.

Seriously? I guess then I would ask you to grow up.

The best counter to griefing is don't!

[CobraFive]

MaddMaxx, on 18 November 2011 - 12:24 PM, said:

Seriously? I guess then I would ask you to grow up.

The best counter to griefing is don't!

Again, I'm not going to stop griefing just because you don't like me.

You can play it off if you want but these are the kinds of questions that need to be answered for the free to play model.

[CeeKay Boques]

cobrafive, on 18 November 2011 - 12:25 PM, said:

Again, I'm not going to stop griefing just because you don't like me.

You can play it off if you want but these are the kinds of questions that need to be answered for the free to play model.

One of the cool parts of the Online model is they can probably track where you are coming from, draw a coraltion to your main account, and ban them all. If you say "well, I'll go to a friends house or spoof my IP!" Well, you can't fix video game idiots. Every game has them, from WoW to BF3, to CoD, all the best games have idiots that ruin things. They can't beat it, but they can make it very annoying for you.

How about a nice annoying 15 minute tutorial every new account? You HAVE to go through the training. Maybe you won't be a sad panda at the end of the training.

[GreyGriffin]

What if I was a father, and my rowdy teenager is a teamkilling ****tard?

[MaddMaxx]

cobrafive, on 18 November 2011 - 12:25 PM, said:

Again, I'm not going to stop griefing just because you don't like me.

You can play it off if you want but these are the kinds of questions that need to be answered for the free to play model.

I wasn't playing it off. Your attitude just seems a bit over the top. There is one thing I know. You will not be TK'ing me, ever in MWO. We may meet in battle but you will not get a shot otherwise. So I hope you enjoy your bad days in MWO as much as I will enjoy my good ones.

[CeeKay Boques]

GreyGriffin, on 18 November 2011 - 12:34 PM, said:

What if I was a father, and my rowdy teenager is a teamkilling ****tard?

Guess who's on the phone with tech support, and guess who's not going out for a month?

[GreyGriffin]

MaddMaxx, on 18 November 2011 - 12:36 PM, said:

I wasn't playing it off. Your attitude just seems a bit over the top. There is one thing I know. You will not be TK'ing me, ever in MWO. We may meet in battle but you will not get a shot otherwise. So I hope you enjoy your bad days in MWO as much as I will enjoy my good ones.

Hold on hold on.

Cobrafive is playing Devil's Advocate. Like it or not, there are people out there expressing the attitude he is emulating. He is posing a hypothetical player and asking us, and asking the game, how it resolves the player he is presenting. He poses a question that I want the answer to, as well.

[Alizabeth Aijou]

The Sniper, on 18 November 2011 - 12:10 PM, said:

You are under the assumption a new player can create an account and start as an assault. I am under the assumption that new users will be placed in a mech like, oh, a stinger sporting a MLsr and M.Gun. If he wants to try and backstab his teammates, I think they will have the last laugh.

Eh, let them, I'll just send the Saurimat after them.
Wouldn't be the first DCMS officer to do so.

Still, in case with BT, there's the case of literal friendly fire.
Flamers and Inferno SRMs give heat to the targeted 'Mech.
Target a friendly 'Mech with Triple-Strength Myomer, and it'll kick in faster, giving your teammate a boost at the cost of a tiny reduction in armour.

Edited by Alizabeth Aijou, 18 November 2011 - 01:32 PM.

[MaddMaxx]

GreyGriffin, on 18 November 2011 - 12:43 PM, said:

Hold on hold on.

Cobrafive is playing Devil's Advocate. Like it or not, there are people out there expressing the attitude he is emulating. He is posing a hypothetical player and asking us, and asking the game, how it resolves the player he is presenting. He poses a question that I want the answer to, as well.

I figured that. How better to respond to the he one is acting as. The answer surely is they will do what/all they can to prevent Grieving as it always detracts from games where it is seen.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 18 November 2011 - 03:06 PM.

[AlphaPrime]

All in for friendly fire and collision damage, etc. That is part of the game IMO. Lance combat is big in BT/MW and this should not be "arcadified" down as it dilutes the whole Mech Sim experience. Of course that's assuming it will be more Mech Sim than anything else, which none of us really know so I guess we'll see.

[Hallstatt]

Sorry, I didn't read all the posts, just want to throw my 2 cents on griefers and how to deal with them:

Besides the "Friendly Damage" counter (c'mon, everyone once in a time shooted a friend by mistake, even more when you 'mech is close to become trash - you can't allow the enemy to fire) I think the best way to deal with griefers is having them pay the costs of repair after the mission is over. This compensates the hurt mate - he won't have to pay for the lost arm - and penalties the griefer - HE will have to pay for it.

This way, if someone goes berserk on his friends, he'll lose way too much C-Bills paying the repair. Maybe some of his own 'mech will have to be sold to pay for the repairs.

But for this to work, Devs will have to implement a good repair mechanic by parts/weapon, with a penalty for destroying the friendly 'mech.

[CobraFive]

Hallstatt, on 18 November 2011 - 05:19 PM, said:

Sorry, I didn't read all the posts, just want to throw my 2 cents on griefers and how to deal with them:

Besides the "Friendly Damage" counter (c'mon, everyone once in a time shooted a friend by mistake, even more when you 'mech is close to become trash - you can't allow the enemy to fire) I think the best way to deal with griefers is having them pay the costs of repair after the mission is over. This compensates the hurt mate - he won't have to pay for the lost arm - and penalties the griefer - HE will have to pay for it.

This way, if someone goes berserk on his friends, he'll lose way too much C-Bills paying the repair. Maybe some of his own 'mech will have to be sold to pay for the repairs.

But for this to work, Devs will have to implement a good repair mechanic by parts/weapon, with a penalty for destroying the friendly 'mech.

Metagame disadvantages to intentional teamkilling helps further reinforce the positive tactical aspects of friendly fire: It makes you consider your shots and the possible consequences, and it helps reinforce the idea that there are consequences at all that can't really be otherwise simulated by a video game (Like a death penalty in an MMORPG- you can't just kill the player). And so I always think its always good idea to include such systems. It also can potentially put you into situations where you think maybe, hey, the risk is worth it to nail that kill. Its an interesting call to make.

Unfortunately, though, it doesn't really stop actual griefing. Someone who teamkills for the fun of it, intentionally, isn't in it for the money anyway. Depending on how they run the accounts though... if you can run your finances into the ground? Or if you otherwise need to wait time before your mech is ready if you don't have the money to repair it on the spot? It could work I think. I was assuming it'd be like World of Tanks where starter-level tanks didn't have any repair or upkeep costs.

In the context of an F2P game, a griefer isn't dedicated. He won't jump through hoops to do it like spoofing IPs. They usually have their account for all of two days and go elsewhere, which is why I say metagame penalties are not explicitly effective.

Maybe I think about it too much I take game design seriously though and in my opinion, griefing is an amazing challenge to work around.

Edited by cobrafive, 18 November 2011 - 05:41 PM.

[Inappropriate849]

cobrafive, on 18 November 2011 - 11:57 AM, said:

Every time I have a bad day- which can be quite often- I'm going to create a new account from a free email site, start as an assault-class mechwarrior, and jump into as many games as I can teamkilling as much as possible.

And also no, I won't hit my eject button because you don't like me.

How does the system deal with me? Saying that I should RP as a merc isn't really a good counter to griefing.

Every time there's a FF discussion, this example pops up. It's not an issue. With 15 or so years of online hardcore FPS experience, I've seen something like this maybe a dozen times, total. Granted, I don't play the worst twitch FPSs (Halo, CoD) which apparently draw the juvenile crowd more, but MWO doesn't draw that kind of audience, so griefing will not be an issue.

Hmm, OTOH, MWO will be F2P which might draw those kinds of people. In any case, it's easy enough to make a non-issue with auto-ban/kick.

[xMarshallx]

CaptainSodom, on 18 November 2011 - 05:58 PM, said:

Every time there's a FF discussion, this example pops up. It's not an issue. With 15 or so years of online hardcore FPS experience, I've seen something like this maybe a dozen times, total. Granted, I don't play the worst twitch FPSs (Halo, CoD) which apparently draw the juvenile crowd more, but MWO doesn't draw that kind of audience, so griefing will not be an issue.

While I agree that at this moment MW:O isn't drawing the traditional FPS crowd, once this game gets released and people start finding out about it - that crowd will come. Hell, I was that crowd 14 years ago - I didn't grief in the sense that you're referring to like backstabbing random people(We would backstab our friends, but there was no penalty for it and was in jest), but I sure as hell let people know I was better than them if they got in the way of me or my stable. The younger generation crowd will be here eventually and it's how we embrace them as a community and try and erase everything negative that Halo, WoW and the internet in general has taught them over the past 5+ years.

[Egomane]

I'm all for friendly fire.

Why? Because it can create a roleplay atmosphere. Some people may not like it, but undercover Pilots that sabotage a mission should be a possibility. They are common in the BT novels. At the same time, there should be a game mechanic to do something about such undercover pilots, like giving them no pay for the mission if they kill a team mate or even reduce their ingame currency/rank. If a player amounts to many team kills, he has to chose a new house and start over. So if you go undercover you have to wait for the best moment to betray your "teammates".

If I was killed by a team mate and he apologises for it (maybe I ran into his line of fire) there should also be an after mission way of redeeming said pilot. Black Sunder already suggested that.

At the same time, I want to be able to shoot a traitor if I find one. Even if that means going into exile for a while.