23 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

Warning: The thread you are about to read is about the assault level poptart metagame. I apologize in advance if you hate it, but the reality is that it does affect you whether or not I like it. Regardless, it's supposed to be informative and "maybe" you'll learn something from it (probably not).

These days I've had some sort of crisis in confidence for the Highlander-732. Maybe it's just "my baby" a while back when the meta was in high gear and I "collected" in winnings for a mechbay.

After a month or two after Paul's infamous nerfs for JJs (for all mechs, but one change affecting the Highlander the most) and torso twist (for the Victor and Highlander), I did set out on an exploration mission to find out how the Victor was post-nerf.

I had concluded at the time that the Victor needed 3 JJs to function as a proper poptart. Would someone care to let me know how important it is to have the 4th one or is it overrated?

The torso twist nerf was notable. I'm used to the now-nerfed Victor's torso twist, but putting a 320 engine on it is seemingly no better/worse than putting a 325 engine on the Highlander-732.

Am I wrong to believe that the 733C suffered the least of said torso twist nerf?
Actual numbers can be found here:
http://mwomercs.com/...76-18-mar-2014/

JJ changes/numbers (to a degree) can be found here:
http://mwomercs.com/...73-04-mar-2014/

I've tried to max out on the 732's JJs (3 max) and it almost feel to me that I have to be "extra patient" for it to be effective. I have not run the 733C in a while (have grinded/mastered them out) and I'd like to hear experiences of running 4 JJs or even 5 JJs on the Heavy Metal (all other Highlanders have 3 JJs max). Is putting 4 JJs that much more helpful, or is the 3 JJ cap on Highlanders a constraining thing at this point in time?

Please note that Highlander is currently the only Assault using 2 ton JJs, and that the Victor uses 1 ton-JJs that are specific to lighter Assaults (between 80 and 85 tons). At the moment, those are the only mechs that use JJs that are not shared between other mechs.

Is it worth exploring the other side... the true meta Highlander (733C) or take a more exploratory look at the Victor-9S (which I still have from the journey - didn't try 4 JJs as of yet)?

Am I just a man on an island?

/sadpanda

[AlmightyAeng]

Deathlike, on 05 May 2014 - 10:36 AM, said:

I had concluded at the time that the Victor needed 3 JJs to function as a proper poptart. Would someone care to let me know how important it is to have the 4th one or is it overrated?

Running an XL 350 and 4 JJ it feels "just like old times" still, honestly.

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Am I wrong to believe that the 733C suffered the least of said torso twist nerf?

Nope, you're right. Super-Meta Highlander received the smallest meta wrist-slap.

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Is it worth exploring the other side... the true meta Highlander (733C) or take a more exploratory look at the Victor-9S (which I still have from the journey - didn't try 4 JJs as of yet)?

It's worth comparing the two...most a lot of 'top' players have decided the Dragonslayer simply outclasses the 733C at this point...in terms of the added mobility and ALSO having a sword/shield side of the mech.

[Deathlike]

Ghost Badger, on 05 May 2014 - 10:43 AM, said:

Running an XL 350 and 4 JJ it feels "just like old times" still, honestly.

Ok, I'll have to try a 4th JJ to make up for the "low arms".

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Nope, you're right. Super-Meta Highlander received the smallest meta wrist-slap.

I kinda need to put into context versus the Victor (I don't want to have to rebuy it and find out unless I'm committed to the idea).

Then again, Paul knows best...

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It's worth comparing the two...most a lot of 'top' players have decided the Dragonslayer simply outclasses the 733C at this point...in terms of the added mobility and ALSO having a sword/shield side of the mech.

The DS has no debate (if I succumb to just spending money on it, I'd probably have to sell my soul or something). It would not be a second thought at this point in time. I'm trying to figure out what makes more sense in the long term w/o resorting to that.

It's hard to quantify said changes w/o actually feeling it... which makes it all the more difficult really.

[AlmightyAeng]

Deathlike, on 05 May 2014 - 10:51 AM, said:

Ok, I'll have to try a 4th JJ to make up for the "low arms".




I kinda need to put into context versus the Victor (I don't want to have to rebuy it and find out unless I'm committed to the idea).

Then again, Paul knows best...



The DS has no debate (if I succumb to just spending money on it, I'd probably have to sell my soul or something). It would not be a second thought at this point in time. I'm trying to figure out what makes more sense in the long term w/o resorting to that.

It's hard to quantify said changes w/o actually feeling it... which makes it all the more difficult really.

I own the 9S and 733C...would you like a comparative video of both playing, elited out? I'll see what I can do this week so you're not wasting C-Bills, if you'd like.

[Deathlike]

Ghost Badger, on 05 May 2014 - 10:57 AM, said:

I own the 9S and 733C...would you like a comparative video of both playing, elited out? I'll see what I can do this week so you're not wasting C-Bills, if you'd like.

Sure, that would be greatly appreciated.

I have both mastered as it is, but I always end up keeping the one that makes the most sense (why bother with multiple mechs that do literally the same thing?)

For some reason, it seems to make zero sense how 3 JJs on the Highlander doesn't give enough "thrust".. yet that is the STANDARD number of JJs max on most of them... which really makes Paul's changes mindboggling... as if he wanted the 733C to be played more. It's just wrong on many different levels.

Edited by Deathlike, 05 May 2014 - 11:02 AM.

[AlmightyAeng]

Deathlike, on 05 May 2014 - 11:02 AM, said:

Sure, that would be greatly appreciated.

I have both mastered as it is, but I always end up keeping the one that makes the most sense (why bother with multiple mechs that do literally the same thing?)

For some reason, it seems to make zero sense how 3 JJs on the Highlander doesn't give enough "thrust".. yet that is the STANDARD number of JJs max on most of them... which really makes Paul's changes mindboggling... as if he wanted the 733C to be played more. It's just wrong on many different levels.

Oh, I was under the mistaken impression you didn't have one of the two (not sure why I thought that, rereading your post lol).

But yeah, I've noticed that 4 on a Victor feels different, at least to me. The Highlander...yeah...um...I don't drive that bus much anymore.

[Deathlike]

Ghost Badger, on 05 May 2014 - 11:03 AM, said:

Oh, I was under the mistaken impression you didn't have one of the two (not sure why I thought that, rereading your post lol).

To be clear, I have the 732 and the 9S. The 733C is the mech in question... (all of them, including the 733C have been mastered, including the oft-forgetten 733P, which seems to get the worst of the torso twist nerf, probably competing with the Stalker).

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But yeah, I've noticed that 4 on a Victor feels different, at least to me. The Highlander...yeah...um...I don't drive that bus much anymore.

I tried running 2, and the low arms made the mech rather ground bound. I suspect the intentions to make it less effective are there (I'm pretty sure people have added more JJs since then).

Then again, I saw Proton run the 733C recently so I often wonder how many JJs the meta-drivers run. It simply could not possibly be 1 or 2 based on usage.

Edited by Deathlike, 05 May 2014 - 11:07 AM.

[Trauglodyte]

Deathlike, on 05 May 2014 - 10:36 AM, said:

Warning: The thread you are about to read is about the assault level poptart metagame. I apologize in advance if you hate it, but the reality is that it does affect you whether or not I like it. Regardless, it's supposed to be informative and "maybe" you'll learn something from it (probably not).

Meta poptarting is for try hards and wannabes. You should be ashamed because I hate it and it affects me deeply. I learned nothing in this thread and am angry that I wasted my time!

How did I do?

[AlmightyAeng]

Deathlike, on 05 May 2014 - 11:06 AM, said:

To be clear, I have the 732 and the 9S. The 733C is the mech in question... (all of them, including the 733C have been mastered, including the oft-forgetten 733P, which seems to get the worst of the torso twist nerf, probably competing with the Stalker).

Ah, right on, so at some point it got sold and post-nerf you want comparisons. Got it

[Deathlike]

Trauglodyte, on 05 May 2014 - 11:12 AM, said:

Meta poptarting is for try hards and wannabes. You should be ashamed because I hate it and it affects me deeply. I learned nothing in this thread and am angry that I wasted my time!

How did I do?

BRAWL BRAWL BRAWL!

Speaking of which, it was this week or something where I had see JagerXII running a 733 trying to brawl with SRMs. I'm not sure what happened afterwards, but that's just what I recall.

Then again, I have actually tried to run ASRMs on the Victors...

Because... BRAWL!

[Trauglodyte]

Deathlike, on 05 May 2014 - 11:17 AM, said:

BRAWL BRAWL BRAWL!

Speaking of which, it was this week or something where I had see JagerXII running a 733 trying to brawl with SRMs. I'm not sure what happened afterwards, but that's just what I recall.

Then again, I have actually tried to run ASRMs on the Victors...

Because... BRAWL!

I'm turning my 9S into a lighter version of the Highlander 733P. The AC20 pisses me off too much to run it as my central weapon and I dont' want to go back to PPCs and AC5s.

[Deathlike]

Trauglodyte, on 05 May 2014 - 11:21 AM, said:

I'm turning my 9S into a lighter version of the Highlander 733P. The AC20 pisses me off too much to run it as my central weapon and I dont' want to go back to PPCs and AC5s.

I have actually survived the temptation to put an AC20 on the Victor-9B+9S's arms, but ironically it was part of a "staple build" at the height of the PPC meta on the 733C.

I did actually run the "classic" PPC+AC build on the 9B, but it felt rather empty inside.

[Trauglodyte]

Deathlike, on 05 May 2014 - 11:41 AM, said:

I have actually survived the temptation to put an AC20 on the Victor-9B+9S's arms, but ironically it was part of a "staple build" at the height of the PPC meta on the 733C.

I did actually run the "classic" PPC+AC build on the 9B, but it felt rather empty inside.

I was running double UACs and PPCs on my Highlander when most people were still doing the PPC/GR and did the same on my Victor for a bit. But, like you, it felt awfully empty. So, I moved to PPCs and a 10 w/ double LRM5s and it felt pretty ok. Going to see if I can't maybe do something with the 9S to make it more fun. PPCs are cool and I love them and that 20 is a ton of fun if it lands. But, for the most part, I'm left wanting on this mech and really have since I bought it.

[Deathlike]

Trauglodyte, on 05 May 2014 - 11:43 AM, said:

I was running double UACs and PPCs on my Highlander when most people were still doing the PPC/GR and did the same on my Victor for a bit. But, like you, it felt awfully empty. So, I moved to PPCs and a 10 w/ double LRM5s and it felt pretty ok. Going to see if I can't maybe do something with the 9S to make it more fun. PPCs are cool and I love them and that 20 is a ton of fun if it lands. But, for the most part, I'm left wanting on this mech and really have since I bought it.

That's the best I can suggest for you at the moment:
VTR-9S

BRAWL BRAWL BRAWL

[Bishop Steiner]

Ghost Badger, on 05 May 2014 - 10:43 AM, said:

Running an XL 350 and 4 JJ it feels "just like old times" still, honestly.

can't agree there....old times, my VTR spun like a top, mid air with that combo. Now, especially brawling, you can't jump spin to keep up with ANYTHING.

Shame is, while it had some impact on Poptarting, it screwed mobile brawlers much, much worse.

[Deathlike]

Bishop Steiner, on 05 May 2014 - 12:02 PM, said:

can't agree there....old times, my VTR spun like a top, mid air with that combo. Now, especially brawling, you can't jump spin to keep up with ANYTHING.

Shame is, while it had some impact on Poptarting, it screwed mobile brawlers much, much worse.

Having seen the "Victor was overnerfed" threads, and driven them post-nerf, I'm inclined to agree with that assessment.

Ironically, the Cataphract-3D has changed very little since its inception...

It would be nice to see the nerfhammer kept in the toolchest, but we can't have nice things though.

[Trauglodyte]

Deathlike, on 05 May 2014 - 12:21 PM, said:

Having seen the "Victor was overnerfed" threads, and driven them post-nerf, I'm inclined to agree with that assessment.

Ironically, the Cataphract-3D has changed very little since its inception...

It would be nice to see the nerfhammer kept in the toolchest, but we can't have nice things though.

That was really my issue with the JJ nerf. They torched the Highlander, kind of over humped the Victor, but the Cataphract and everything below were left unscathed. What Paul and company don't see inclined to see or understand is that JJs are a force multiplier for a mech that use them vs. those that can't. Mech size aside, you've got the FS/Jenner vs. the Raven with the Raven losing, you've got the Phoenix mechs vs. the Kintaro with the latter losing, QD vs. the Dragon (QD wins), JJ TBolt vs non-JJ Tbolts, Phract vs everything above and below, Victor vs Awesome. In every instance, the JJ is the lynch pin and yet the jump capable mech loses nothing. PGI seems to think that yaw and pitch angles are a big deal but they aren't. Hell, the Firestarter comes with 2 more hard points, in most cases, than the Jenner and all it loses is 5 engine ratings and some twist. Gotta wonder how it is Paul and them allocate points towards interchassis mech balance.

[Deathlike]

Trauglodyte, on 05 May 2014 - 12:28 PM, said:

That was really my issue with the JJ nerf. They torched the Highlander, kind of over humped the Victor, but the Cataphract and everything below were left unscathed.

I hate to say this, but I run the 3D more than the Victor+Highlander. It's simply less painful.

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What Paul and company don't see inclined to see or understand is that JJs are a force multiplier for a mech that use them vs. those that can't.

Probably... but the movement archetype code has accentuated that effect greatly.

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Mech size aside, you've got the FS/Jenner vs. the Raven with the Raven losing, you've got the Phoenix mechs vs. the Kintaro with the latter losing, QD vs. the Dragon (QD wins), JJ TBolt vs non-JJ Tbolts, Phract vs everything above and below, Victor vs Awesome.

The Raven doesn't always lose... however it's limited to a lot fewer roles (leg hitbox nerf hurts them immensely comparatively).

I plan to brawl with the Kintaro... or make it some sort or lurm hybrid. We'll see when double XP weekend hits.

Quickdraw vs Dragon isn't really that much of an issue (both are scarce on the field) and I'm really biased to the Quickdraw.

The Thunderbolt-9SE isn't that great. I like the 5SS/9S better... mostly because the torso pitch affects the Tbolts in general more than the Cataphract (cockpit location is a factor believe it or not).

Awesome is still the barndoor... please close it on your way out.

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In every instance, the JJ is the lynch pin and yet the jump capable mech loses nothing. PGI seems to think that yaw and pitch angles are a big deal but they aren't. Hell, the Firestarter comes with 2 more hard points, in most cases, than the Jenner and all it loses is 5 engine ratings and some twist. Gotta wonder how it is Paul and them allocate points towards interchassis mech balance.

There is no inter-chassis mech balance, let alone inter-variant mech balance. Yaw+pitch DOES affect them. The Firestarter IS affected by it, but can be mitigated (arm articulation is excellent but fragile)... but something like the Spider-5V is GROSSLY affected by this behavior however.

Ultimately, the answer is... because Paul. Don't get me started on that...

[Trauglodyte]

Yeah, it's all because of Paul. I just don't understand it. I mean, I'm a pure numbers guy both in my job and just how I view the world. Math breaks down everything and prevents emotion from making you weak. But, there has to be balance in what they're doing. You can't have a shit variant thinking that adding 6 more JJs will make it better. You can't have a variant more guns vs. the other because you think 10 degrees pitch and yaw per side are enough to mitigate the offensive impact.

It just doesn't add up.

[kapusta11]

Instead of 3/3/3/3 that will do basically nothing PGI should've implemented some sort of battle value for mechs, especially for the ones with JJ.