295 replies to this topic

[Av4tar]

It has missiles pod on his arm

[GizmoGecko]

Why no side, front and back elevations like you did with the Summoner and the gold versions of the Adder and Stormcrow? You guys have some weird format patterns. Although I'm quite positive that I'm still gonna dislike the 2x10 arrangement of that LRM launcher even from the side

Edited by GizmoGecko, 08 May 2014 - 07:53 PM.

[R 13]

In a similar vein to the timberwolf: You have a TRO with a line diagram in-profile that is widely accepted as canon by the majority of Mechwarrior/Battletech fans. Why screw with this? I know I'm probably stepping on some artist's toes with their "interpretation" of how these mechs should look....but I'm sorry. A Ferrari F-40.....looks ONE way. A Timberwolf, the equivalent icon in the 'mecha world....looks ONE way: 3050 TRO: the-end. It's not like we're polygon limited here as in MW4/3/2

Put the missile rack on the shoulder of the Warhawk (connect it to the arm), fix the cockpit, round the Timberwolf's arms and cockpit area, and quit mucking around creating controversy around what you KNOW are the poster-mechs going forward.

On a positive note, the Thor/Summoner and Ryoken/Storm Crow have been spot-on.

Edited by R 13, 08 May 2014 - 11:24 PM.

[DirePhoenix]

R 13, on 08 May 2014 - 11:22 PM, said:

In a similar vein to the timberwolf: You have a TRO with a line diagram in-profile that is widely accepted as canon by the majority of Mechwarrior/Battletech fans. Why screw with this? I know I'm probably stepping on some artist's toes with their "interpretation" of how these mechs should look....but I'm sorry. A Ferrari F-40.....looks ONE way. A Timberwolf, the equivalent icon in the 'mecha world....looks ONE way: 3050 TRO: the-end. It's not like we're polygon limited here as in MW4/3/2

Put the missile rack on the shoulder of the Warhawk (connect it to the arm), fix the cockpit, round the Timberwolf's arms and cockpit area, and quit mucking around creating controversy around what you KNOW are the poster-mechs going forward.

On a positive note, the Thor/Summoner and Ryoken/Storm Crow have been spot-on.

Mostly because those line drawings DON'T WORK if you try to make them into 3D models that have to actually articulate in a way to make them function. Take another look at those line drawings. Most of them have arms and legs that can only move in one axis. Arms that can only move up and down. Legs that can only move forward and back, with no adjustment for lateral movement. Sure, they may look fine in static images, but they wouldn't be actually walk or even move their weapons effectively. Even in posed "action shots" of the sourcebook art, you should notice that the artists took some "liberties" with how physical objects work. A solid joint hinge or "axle" that is inexplicably "bent" in order to move an arm or leg to the side, lopsided limbs in order to make a design look like it could be posed with a foot propped up on a rock or fallen mech. 2D artists don't have to deal with the constraints that modelers do when making objects that have to be articulated and moving in a 3D game. Even miniature sculptors don't have to deal with objects that have to maintain a range of motion, or be able to create structures that have to not only look like they could believably support their own weight and stand upright, but also move in a way to propel themselves on legs. Do you actually think the line-drawing Timberwolf's tiny noodly biceps would be able to even support the weight, let alone aim/position the 6-8 *tons* of weapon systems on each of those forearms?!?

As for the arm mounted missile launcher: In MWO, arm-mounted weapons have to be able to move with the arms. In the case of mechs with lower arm actuators, they have to move with the lower arm. So if it is a mech with arms that have lateral movement, the weapon is going on the lower arm. Could it have been placed on the side of the arm instead of underneath it? Probably. But it still would have had to been placed on the lower arm. Maybe they thought that it would have made the mech too wide if they put it on the outside of the forearm.

Edited by DirePhoenix, 08 May 2014 - 11:52 PM.

[Pariah Devalis]

https://plus.google....327863130110145

[Koniving]

aniviron, on 05 May 2014 - 07:43 PM, said:

When I click on the weapon lab, I see 64 heat capacity. Since we're talking about the Warhawk here and we don't know if we're going to get mech skill trees or what they'll have if we do get them. I don't think it makes sense to count that yet.

Weapon lab is for NO SKILLS applied. Now when you find a button to enable it for Smurfy's mechs and weapon lab, you'll find a very different experience. Or a basic concept of math and the phrase "30 base + heatsink value amount + 20% for two times basic = threshold."
64 is calculated by 30 base + (10 * 2.0 Engine DHS) + (10 * 1.4 Added DHS) = 64. + (10% Heat Containment which raises threshold *2 for double basics) = 76.8 threshold. The same math is applied for cooling without the 30 base, and 7.5% cool run * 2 for double basics.

The reason we have "3 variants" is because... skill trees, which it has been stated we're going to get them as each Center Torso counts as a variant, unchangeable as it is for that identical for that mech to keep track of those Mech Experience Points to give you That mech's skill tree.

We're going to have them, it's in the command chair's "How Clan Mechs Work" post where it talks about taking them apart.

Also while you have double the armor you have 3 times the firing rate for all weapons.
So, tabletop is 1:1:1. 1 times armor, 1 times damage, 1 times cooling/threshold.
MWO is 2:3:??? It's 2 times armor, 3 times damage, and between cooling and threshold you're pretty close to somewhere between 3 to 4 times effective DHS.

Why is this? Because in a comparison of standard PPCs in tabletop where a mech with 20 DHS can fire 6 in a 10 second period (while only using 3 and having MWO's firing rate) before shutting down and it has to be fired one at a time or two then one... in MWO with ghost heat enabled, you can fire all 3 at once, have ghost heat punishing you each time, and squeeze in 9 shots in the same time frame. Without ghost heat, 12 shots is possible before shutdown if you completely ignore the firing rates in MWO.

So in MWO, with ghost heat and 3 PPCs, you can squeeze off 1.5 times the potential despite the nerfed heatsinks due to the combination threshold and cooling thanks to the skill tree. If you ignore the firing rate and remove ghost heat, you can do 2 times the potential damage. But more so, in tabletop even if you could do pinpoint damage you were forced to fire 2, 1, 2, 1. Here, you fire 3, 3, 3 (and 3). Much more pinpoint damage even if both sides could have pinpoint.

In the end, no matter what, the heatsinks are better here. And that firing rate doesn't mean jack; if anything it might not be fast enough to offset the boost you get from MWO's heatsinks.

Edited by Koniving, 09 May 2014 - 12:22 PM.

[a gaijin]

Koniving, on 06 May 2014 - 05:07 PM, said:

From a technical standpoint, being able to simultaineously fire 2 Clan ER PPCs isn't actually possible in tabletop if the PPCs work as they do in MWO. Now if they built up the heat gradually that's another story, but instant heat spikes at 15 points.. you'd never fire 2 at once in source. It'd be Whoosh, whoosh, whoosh, whoosh. Which you can just fine now in spite of ghost heat. I actually had 4 ER PPCs on a Banshee and kicked ass with it. And I get 2/3rds the damage that 4 Clan ER PPCs do nor their cooling power.

It'd work more like this. Warhawk, 4 ER PPCs, 20 DHS. We're using tabletop. Here we go!
Cooling rate: 4/sec.
Threshold: 30.

Spoiler

0 seconds. Fires 1 ER PPC. WHOOSH!. + 15 heat. (15) 50%.
1 second. -4. 11 heat.
2 seconds. -4. 7 heat.
3 seconds. -4. 3 heat. Fire 1 ER PPC. Whoosh + 15 heat. (18). 60%.
4 seconds. -4. 14 heat.
5 seconds - 4. 10 heat. Pilot's overzealous! Fire 1 ER PPC! Whoosh + 15 heat = 25 heat 83.33%!!! Ammo is cooking!
6 seconds - 4. 21 heat. 70%.
7 seconds - 4. 17 heat. 56.67%.
8 seconds - 4. 13 heat.
9 seconds - 4. 9 heat. Fire 1 ER PPC. Whoosh + 15 heat = 24 heat. 80%!
10 seconds -4. 20 heat. 66.67%.

That's a pretty fiesty order with true DHS. Then again ER PPCs only fired once in a ten second period anyway. But what if you did fire them all at once?

Spoiler

Still tabletop!
0 seconds FIRE ALL FOUR! + 60 heat!
200% threshold! Warning! Shutdown! Ammo explodes!
1 second. -4. 56 heat. 186.67%.
2 seconds - 4. 52 heat. 173.33%
3 seconds - 4. 48 heat. 160%.
4 seconds - 4. 44 heat. 146.67%
5 seconds - 4. 40 heat. 133.33%
6 seconds - 4. 36 heat. 120%.
7 seconds - 4. 32 heat. 106.67%.
8 seconds - 4. 28 heat. 93.33%
9 seconds - 4. 24 heat. 80%.
10 seconds - 4. 20 heat. 66.67%.

Still 66.67% heat after the 10 seconds, but damn you shutdown, waited 10 seconds, blew your ammo. Ouch, man, are you suicidal or what? Not to mention you lost consciousness and fell over. Not the brightest move in the world there, mate.

What about MWO? In fact, lets push all 4 at once without ghost heat!
Threshold: 76.8.
Cooling: 3.91/sec.

Spoiler

0 seconds FIRE ALL FOUR! + 60 heat!
78.125% threshold! No punishment! 60 damage alpha strike, ZOMG OP!
1 second. -3.91. 56.09 heat. 73.033854166667%.
2 seconds ||. 52.18 heat.
3 seconds ||. 48.27 heat.
4 seconds ||. 44.36 heat.
5 seconds ||. 40.45 heat. 52.669270833333%
6 seconds ||. 36.54 heat.
7 seconds ||. 32.63 heat.
8 seconds ||. 28.72 heat. 37.395833333333%(Remember how this was 93.33%?)
9 seconds ||. 24.81 heat.
10 seconds ||. 20.9 heat. 27.213541666667%(Remember how this was 66.67%?)

So sorry bud, it ain't happening. I hate ghost heat as much as anyone. But even without it, if PGI did NOT tamper with the source heat system, you'd STILL never fire all 4 at once.

In fact you'd never even fire 2 at once. So be glad you have what you have.
Here's something to play with if you get bored. It's a heat simulator.

I never got a chance to reply but wanted to send my thanks for the explanation. To be very honest the numbers kind of frazzled me but the explanation was very visual and easy to understand. So thanks very much!
On a different note I saw a YouTube of someone in a 2 (or was it 3?) erPPC Atlas with SINGLE heat sinks (some in the kegs) and they weren't overheating! The map was Forest Colony and the Atlas was staying in the water. Maybe it your video? Anyhow it was a cool demonstration

[Corbenik]

Koniving, on 05 May 2014 - 04:59 PM, said:

Take your pick, side or underslung in this style? (Takes zero effort, just a quick twist and a slight tweak of the hitbox.)

lol did anyone notice the ones in the back xD dat giant dong rack on top left just dangling saying "shoot me"

[White Bear 84]

R 13, on 08 May 2014 - 11:22 PM, said:

In a similar vein to the timberwolf: You have a TRO with a line diagram in-profile that is widely accepted as canon by the majority of Mechwarrior/Battletech fans. Why screw with this? I know I'm probably stepping on some artist's toes with their "interpretation" of how these mechs should look....but I'm sorry. A Ferrari F-40.....looks ONE way. A Timberwolf, the equivalent icon in the 'mecha world....looks ONE way: 3050 TRO: the-end. It's not like we're polygon limited here as in MW4/3/2

Put the missile rack on the shoulder of the Warhawk (connect it to the arm), fix the cockpit, round the Timberwolf's arms and cockpit area, and quit mucking around creating controversy around what you KNOW are the poster-mechs going forward.

On a positive note, the Thor/Summoner and Ryoken/Storm Crow have been spot-on.

Now dont forget the Adder too! I love the Thor (apart from the griffin cockpit which is odd)

I just wish the front of teh Masakari did not look so much like a droopy dog.. ..it needs more slant and the hood does not cover the top enough, it does look good, but not quite Masakari enough - just like stripping the Madcat of some of its trademark design....

[Koniving]

HeroForHire, on 11 May 2014 - 07:13 PM, said:

I never got a chance to reply but wanted to send my thanks for the explanation. To be very honest the numbers kind of frazzled me but the explanation was very visual and easy to understand. So thanks very much!
On a different note I saw a YouTube of someone in a 2 (or was it 3?) erPPC Atlas with SINGLE heat sinks (some in the kegs) and they weren't overheating! The map was Forest Colony and the Atlas was staying in the water. Maybe it your video? Anyhow it was a cool demonstration

The numbers, if you mean the origin then literally the post right above the one you made. The link to the heat simulator will help you out to toy with 'em. If you mean the sheer difference in numbers between the two games, well...yeah. >.>

And yeah, that was actually me. "Let's do this, superior standard heatsinks" right? Only trouble with that is the need to run an XL engine and about 38 to 43 tons in heatsinks, but yes it's quite a terrifying cooling rate when the threshold is quite high.

[Corbenik]

HeroForHire, on 06 May 2014 - 02:59 PM, said:

But once one of our Mech Techs mods the mech to meet our requirements, well... let's just say our techs are not as skilled as the ones on Huntress

-That sounds good like those disclaimers that say "Void warranty if opened or modified" with a shiny sticker that makes u wanna tear it off xD

[Grimmrog]

Wasn't it said the gold mech comes with an unique geometry? on the Warhawk and the Summoner I can not see any differences between gold and regular except the colors

And the adder seems to only have a difference between his legs (but here the non gold looks better)

Edited by Grimmrog, 14 May 2014 - 06:09 AM.

[Pariah Devalis]

Grimmrog, on 14 May 2014 - 05:45 AM, said:

Wasn't it said the gold mech comes with an unique geometry? on the Warhawk and the Summoner I can not see any differences between gold and regular except the colors

And the adder seems to only have a difference between his legs (but here the non gold looks better)

has the pre-order prime geometry. Or it did, until I realized it looks like the skin is applicable to both the pre-order prime and the standard models.

Honestly, that sounds like a perk.

[verybad]

Redshift2k5, on 08 May 2014 - 04:04 AM, said:

omfg

you win

I gotta agree, that would be epic. Masakari with the 30 ton optional detachable. sensors package

Probably a missile based mack in the list, so just gove the spider ECM, BAP, and even a TAG then just stand there while the little guy finds you dinner.

[Lucas the Old]

Here is an idea for a partial fix. The three warhawks that I have in my game all have the LT hardwired with 4 DHS. But 2 of the three have 2 open slots in the CT, and 1 has an SRM4 and a ton of ammo. (Pull the missiles and ammo ) Why not just hardwire a DHS in the center torso, and then open up 2 slots on the LT. You could make the Omnipods 1 of each type (Eng, Bal, Mis). You could load say an UAC2 or 2 MG, 2 single slot energy weapons, or 2 single slot missile weapons. It would make the Warhawk more like the big machine we all fell for in MW2. This is just an Idea, that I and maybe others hope you will consider.