124 replies to this topic

[Almond Brown]

verybad, on 07 May 2014 - 09:23 AM, said:

I have no problem with them making money, but they told us things that we were expecting to be in the game would be out long ago.

As RG Notch mentioned, we bought content under the understanding that the game would be more than what it is. We heard things about "Dropship matches, CW, planet capturing, and more. We were given the impression that it would be out quickly (indeed, before "Full Release".

This thing is now a FTP nightmare with the only thing coming out on time being items for sale.

Wow, the angst. Just go play some game you actually like then. Why is that such a difficult concept?

verybad, on 07 May 2014 - 09:26 AM, said:

The money spent is real, and if people are spending real money under the expectation that what they are told is going to happen (ie a service), then do not recieve that service, then yeah, we've got a real reason to be pissed off.

No we didn't buy CW, but it has been used extensively as a marketing tool.

Well there you go. Do you believe everything you hear and read on the TV commercials as well. The difference between a consumer and a smart consumer is just what you said.

One knows a "marketing tool" when they see one, the other just can't or won't.

Destructicus, on 07 May 2014 - 09:35 AM, said:

QFT
We'll have something that can be sold every patch, but holy ****
what has it been?
Almost six months since a new map, that came out in December if I remember correctly
Sad thing is a simple thing like new maps would probably respark a lot of people's interest in this game

So if they monetized Maps and produced then regularly, that would be better and you would be happy?

[White Panther]

Almond Brown, on 07 May 2014 - 10:30 AM, said:

So if they monetized Maps and produced then regularly, that would be better and you would be happy?

Yep, I would love to pay for the content that I want, rather then the other "content" like putting out mechs non-stop. I would pay good money for more maps and CW.

[Almond Brown]

Roland, on 07 May 2014 - 09:57 AM, said:

stuff

Ever hear of a Games Post-Mortem? You should really read one, or 6.

As with many things in the real world, what one wants and desires is often circumvented when the reality of a situation is revealed.

Same applies to daily life. It is more than a bit strange that many will not allow that to be an actuality when it happens to a Dev group. Despite it happening to each and every one of them.

Thus one can only assume, most that feel they need to get all riled up with genuine Hate and Angst over some "digital bits" must be doing so to offset something that is missing in their real lives.

Edited by Almond Brown, 07 May 2014 - 10:42 AM.

[Almond Brown]

White Panther, on 07 May 2014 - 10:33 AM, said:

Yep, I would love to pay for the content that I want, rather then the other "content" like putting out mechs non-stop. I would pay good money for more maps and CW.

Well dude, then you should start a Thread and see what kind of traction that idea gets. It would seem a sure bet that if Players would PAY RL monies for Maps, then PGI would accommodate.

P.S. Pretty hard to have a MW game without Mechs though right?

[Praehotec8]

I think Mr. Dixon posted a very relevant post to this thread that explains much of the cold, hard truth of the situation. That being said, I think there is less deliberate intent to mislead than (perhaps) misguided over-belief by the team's management that a small team can move mountains quickly.

The clan pack bonus modules and horns are really just gravy, and I suspect that they ought not to be the deciding factor in making a purchase, as they likely represent the LEAST monetary value of the components in the packs (and this is stated as someone who has already purchased a pack).

Of bigger concern is that we have only about 5 weeks before the clan mechs hit, and from developer posts, most of the clan tech details are still very much in development. While post-release balancing is reasonable and most likely will be needed, it is disconcerting that some core details seem not to be cemented yet...

[Joseph Mallan]

Almond Brown, on 07 May 2014 - 10:40 AM, said:

Well dude, then you should start a Thread and see what kind of traction that idea gets. It would seem a sure bet that if Players would PAY RL monies for Maps, then PGI would accommodate.

P.S. Pretty hard to have a MW game without Mechs though right?

Right up there with not having maps to fight on.

[White Panther]

Almond Brown, on 07 May 2014 - 10:37 AM, said:

Thus one can only assume, most that feel they need to get all riled up with genuine Hate and Angst over some "digital bits" must be doing so to offset something that is missing in their real lives.

I dunno, seems to me you are the only one riled up in here with the amount of posting you have done in this single thread, lol..

Almond Brown, on 07 May 2014 - 10:40 AM, said:

Well dude, then you should start a Thread and see what kind of traction that idea gets. It would seem a sure bet that if Players would PAY RL monies for Maps, then PGI would accommodate.

P.S. Pretty hard to have a MW game without Mechs though right?

Nah.. I think we have plenty of mechs right now wouldn't you agree? And far too many of them being almost useless in the field.

[Almond Brown]

Praehotec8, on 07 May 2014 - 10:42 AM, said:

I think Mr. Dixon posted a very relevant post to this thread that explains much of the cold, hard truth of the situation. That being said, I think there is less deliberate intent to mislead than (perhaps) misguided over-belief by the team's management that a small team can move mountains quickly.

The clan pack bonus modules and horns are really just gravy, and I suspect that they ought not to be the deciding factor in making a purchase, as they likely represent the LEAST monetary value of the components in the packs (and this is stated as someone who has already purchased a pack).

Of bigger concern is that we have only about 5 weeks before the clan mechs hit, and from developer posts, most of the clan tech details are still very much in development. While post-release balancing is reasonable and most likely will be needed, it is disconcerting that some core details seem not to be cemented yet...

The current release of actual Clan Mechs photos, on known maps in the game, is a good sign right.

We have seen what? 4 so far of what? 8 (variants are nothing more than Load-out changes).

When you mention Tech details, what do you mean exactly? Damage, weight, heat etc etc of weapons? That sort of thing? Pretty sure they will need tweaking and much tears will flow when announced, no matter what the numbers are...

Joseph Mallan, on 07 May 2014 - 10:42 AM, said:

Right up there with not having maps to fight on.

Chicken or Egg Joe. Chicken or Egg.

White Panther, on 07 May 2014 - 10:44 AM, said:

I dunno, seems to me you are the only one riled up in here with the amount of posting you have done in this single thread, lol..

Nah.. I think we have plenty of mechs right now wouldn't you agree? And far too many of them being almost useless in the field.

Totally subjective. Like everything in almost all threads. What you feel is right, may not be the same for others, and visa versa.

I still think these forums should have the "Mulberry Bush" as its official symbol.

P.S. These hate threads grow so fast, going to sleep apparently make staying current difficult. My bad. :>

Edited by Almond Brown, 07 May 2014 - 10:56 AM.

[verybad]

Almond Brown, on 07 May 2014 - 10:30 AM, said:

Wow, the angst. Just go play some game you actually like then. Why is that such a difficult concept?



Well there you go. Do you believe everything you hear and read on the TV commercials as well. The difference between a consumer and a smart consumer is just what you said.

One knows a "marketing tool" when they see one, the other just can't or won't.



So if they monetized Maps and produced then regularly, that would be better and you would be happy?

So you're fine withbait and switch.Don't expect everyone to be though.

[Almond Brown]

verybad, on 07 May 2014 - 10:55 AM, said:

So you're fine with bait and switch.Don't expect everyone to be though.

What bait and switch? For every dollar I provided PGI, they have given me exactly what was written.

Now if you were still waiting for your "Founders" or "Phoenix" Mechs, maybe that would be something worthy of the angst found here. The OP is pissed he didn't get a special memo about the Medallions and Horns that come along with the Clan Packs, that aren't due out yet? wft?

[Praehotec8]

Almond Brown, on 07 May 2014 - 10:54 AM, said:

The current release of actual Clan Mechs photos, on known maps in the game, is a good sign right.

We have seen what? 4 so far of what? 8 (variants are nothing more than Load-out changes).

When you mention Tech details, what do you mean exactly? Damage, weight, heat etc etc of weapons? That sort of thing? Pretty sure they will need tweaking and much tears will flow when announced, no matter what the numbers are...

I am sure the clan mechs will be delivered on time. Showing the models means little, other than that we can climb into our shiny new mechs on schedule. What concerns me is that we have few real hard details about how the proposed clan tech will function.

For example, clan lasers (including pulses) will have longer durations. This could mean anything from a negligible change to double or triple (which would render clan lasers effectively useless). At what minimum range will clan LRMs do relevant damage? Will all clan autocannons (LBX and UACs) do burst fire, or will the LBX slugs fire single shots?

The goal is to keep clantech in some semblance of balance with the IS tech, but depending on some of the variables, balance could be skewed significantly in favor of either camp (in fact at the moment the IS tech seems to have an edge). At this point, I would hope that there are some soft numbers available from testing, which can be ironed out of the next few months. Thus far we know very little other than vague concepts.

I would argue that more players would purchase clan packs if they felt reassured that their purchases would be viable in the game/meta-game. The modules and horns are likely trivial at best (see all current such perks, including the weapon range modules). (and again, I say all of this as someone who has already been convinced to make a purchase...I think more information about the core specifics would help others buy in).

[Rebas Kradd]

Roland, on 07 May 2014 - 09:57 AM, said:

Also, props to Chronojam, for putting together an awesome timeline that provides easy access to all of these specific concrete facts throughtout MWO's development.

And yet I could care less, given that everything said by a dev comes with the caveat of "subject to change" and anyone who doesn't understand that, doesn't understand software.

[Roland]

Almond Brown, on 07 May 2014 - 10:37 AM, said:

Ever hear of a Games Post-Mortem? You should really read one, or 6.

I've actually developed software professionally for the past 14 years.

Almond Brown, on 07 May 2014 - 10:37 AM, said:

As with many things in the real world, what one wants and desires is often circumvented when the reality of a situation is revealed.

Yeah, no.
Sorry chief, but this isn't really an excuse.

Of course, things sometimes happen, and deadlines sometimes get pushed... Although I would have to point out that as someone who manages software development, my initial timelines tend to include those inevitable delays. When I set up timelines for delivery, I don't do so based upon how long it would take in a magical world where everything works perfectly. I give our customers estimates based on real-world experience regarding software development.

But I'll tell you right now, it's not "normal" for a software development team to miss a deadline over and over again, continually pushing the deadline back for multiple years, all the while saying, "It'll be done in a few months!"

That's the exception, rather than the rule. That kind of thing is why games like DNF were the laughing stock of the industry.

Quote

Same applies to daily life. It is more than a bit strange that many will not allow that to be an actuality when it happens to a Dev group. Despite it happening to each and every one of them.

My perspective is perhaps a bit different from yours.

As a professional engineer, I know that software isn't some kind of magical alchemy performed by wizards. Software engineering is a structured process... or at least, when done correctly it is. Even agile approaches aren't meant to be without structure.

Software engineering isn't just "let's write a bunch of code and hope it works!"

The reason why professionals use actual software engineering methodologies, is that a structured methodology actually helps you develop complex systems more quickly. They are what allow you to avoid problems before coding, and deal with problems earlier rather than later in the development cycle, and make better predictions about how long it will take. It's not magic. It's not some great unknowable issue.

All that being said, I think that folks like Matt Craig aren't likely a major source of the problem here. I kind of get the impression, just from observing from the outside and having experience in such environments, that he may often have his hands tied by other forces at work.. So it's not necessarily that their engineering process is bad, but could perhaps be that higher ups just aren't listening to the engineers when they say things like, "There's no way we'll be able to do that by that time." Sometimes, the bigwigs just don't want to hear such answers... or even worse, create an environment where such honesty is discouraged.

Ultimately though, as a consumer, none of that stuff matters. What matters is that things were promised many times, and those promises were left unfulfilled. As a consumer, I have no reason to believe that is going to change.

Hell, I still can't easily play with my friends, despite the fact that when the 4 player limit was put into place in November of 2012, it was supposed to be temporary. They strung me along with that bullshit for years before finally announcing a few weeks ago that they were just going to leave the limit in place forever.

Fool me 283 times, shame on you.
Fool me 284 times, shame on me.

Rebas Kradd, on 07 May 2014 - 11:24 AM, said:

And yet I could care less, given that everything said by a dev comes with the caveat of "subject to change" and anyone who doesn't understand that, doesn't understand software.

You like to say things like this.

You don't actually have any actual experience developing software professionally, do you? As I said above, I've developed software professionally for 14 years now. I'm suspect I understand it far better than you do. Do you have any professional experience at all? Do you even have any amateur experience?

[Destructicus]

Almond Brown, on 07 May 2014 - 10:30 AM, said:

So if they monetized Maps and produced then regularly, that would be better and you would be happy?

wow
yep, cause that's exactly what I said.
you got me
I'm starting to see a trend in everything you post where you somehow either miss the point or simply don't understand what someone is trying to say.

[Prezimonto]

Zolaz, on 05 May 2014 - 04:56 PM, said:

When is PGI going to tell us what the Bonus Modules and Medallions do for the Clan Package? Does no one over at PGI know what they are going to do about a month out from their release? Does no one over at PGI want to tell us?

There has to be a reason this information is not being released.

Sure there is:

1) they don't know either
2) they're saving that information for a marketing blitz to sell more packages when sales dip.

And that's with about 5 seconds of thought about why they might not tell us more. I'm sure I can come up with more reasons.

Now, is it annoying that they're selling us pixel crack with no information? Yes. But that's partly why I've decided to stop spending money on this game.

[FupDup]

Prezimonto, on 07 May 2014 - 01:55 PM, said:

--
2) they're saving that information for a marketing blitz to sell more packages when sales dip.
---

For this specific point, the amount of time they have left is dwindling. The Clan pack is coming next month already, and we haven't even hit the second social reward yet.

[Prezimonto]

FupDup, on 07 May 2014 - 01:58 PM, said:

For this specific point, the amount of time they have left is dwindling. The Clan pack is coming next month already, and we haven't even hit the second social reward yet.

I'm not wrong though. My guess is that information will be released during the final week blitz to get people to buy more/upgrade packages at the last minute. They'll wait until the pressure to buy is on and let people convince themselves that another 100$ is totally worth the ability to make noises in game... or whatever they're going to do.

[FupDup]

Prezimonto, on 07 May 2014 - 02:00 PM, said:

I'm not wrong though. My guess is that information will be released during the final week blitz to get people to buy more/upgrade packages at the last minute. They'll wait until the pressure to buy is on and let people convince themselves that another 100$ is totally worth the ability to make noises in game... or whatever they're going to do.

Didn't say you were. My point was more along the lines of that they're probably waiting too long. Unless some kind of magic (i.e. Clans on PTS as a "demo of sorts?) happens, I'm not sure if phase 4 will even get unlocked.

[Prezimonto]

FupDup, on 07 May 2014 - 02:03 PM, said:

Didn't say you were. My point was more along the lines of that they're probably waiting too long. Unless some kind of magic (i.e. Clans on PTS as a "demo of sorts?) happens, I'm not sure if phase 4 will even get unlocked.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, sorry for phrasing. I'm more just trying to say that I suspect them of either poor planning or poor/irritating marketing tactics. Or both.

[FupDup]

Prezimonto, on 07 May 2014 - 02:06 PM, said:

I'm not trying to be a jerk, sorry for phrasing. I'm more just trying to say that I suspect them of either poor planning or poor/irritating marketing tactics. Or both.

I'm leaning more towards bad planning, although PGI has never been particularly good at marketing (barring the "good old days" dev blog posts like Role Warfare, Community Warfare, etc. etc.)...

The fact that we're only a month away and the unique modules are still only being brainstormed sums it up pretty nicely.

Edited by FupDup, 07 May 2014 - 02:11 PM.