90 replies to this topic

[Grimmrog]

Rouken, on 06 May 2014 - 11:37 AM, said:

You can redistribute armor and add or subtract, it was in one of the vlogs.

The Adder and Kit Fox are not going to play like your standard IS light. They're going to fill a fire support role. You'll take pot shots with your oversized weapons and dart around the feet of much larger friendlies adding to their fire power.

Most of the IS support mechs are mediums and heavies for the Clans light mechs will be able to take on this role as well.

Considering the overall speed of the announced clan mechs I predict a fast moving and highly aggressive deathball. And if the Clan ER PPCs do 15 damage you'll be adding plenty of firepower in your Adder.

In terms of fending off IS lights, both the Adder and Kit Fox can strap on one or two streak 6 launchers.

I think there are more traditional lights available to the Clans but i'm not too familiar with them.

But this would imply that clan mechs play together. But so far clan and IS mechs will anyways be mixed. So most of the "expected" roles these mechs have will more or less be obsolete, or not working as intended.

[IraqiWalker]

Grimmrog, on 07 May 2014 - 12:00 AM, said:

But this would imply that clan mechs play together. But so far clan and IS mechs will anyways be mixed. So most of the "expected" roles these mechs have will more or less be obsolete, or not working as intended.

I don't know if it's going to be that way at the start or not, but I believe the devs want it to be Clans vs IS. They also mentioned that they were exploring asymmetrical combat (namely 10v12, two starts vs 3 lances). They never said it would be implemented, but they did say that they desire it to be Clans vs IS. Also, I think the Clans will be added as actual factions (Like the great houses right now) come CW. Don't take anything that has been written in this post as a binding contract, all of this is suggestions, desires, and estimates. All susceptible to change.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Grimmrog, on 07 May 2014 - 12:00 AM, said:

But this would imply that clan mechs play together. But so far clan and IS mechs will anyways be mixed. So most of the "expected" roles these mechs have will more or less be obsolete, or not working as intended.

Since when is fire support obsolete?

[Lostdragon]

Grimmrog, on 07 May 2014 - 12:00 AM, said:

But this would imply that clan mechs play together. But so far clan and IS mechs will anyways be mixed. So most of the "expected" roles these mechs have will more or less be obsolete, or not working as intended.

This. It seems to me clan lights are going to be in the state IS mediums are currently in, able to be effective in the hands of good pilots but outclassed by other options.

[Agent of Change]

How is this discussion any deeper than "Those are some mighty sweet looking practice targets PGI had us pay for"

In this game a light that can't go fast dies.

[Ngamok]

Agent of Change, on 07 May 2014 - 11:16 AM, said:

How is this discussion any deeper than "Those are some mighty sweet looking practice targets PGI had us pay for"

In this game a light that can't go fast dies.

A small light sitting off in the distance pegging you with twin CERPPCs doesn't die fast. Much like some of the lights do now with twin PPC / ERPPC and ERLL.

Edited by Ngamok, 07 May 2014 - 11:51 AM.

[Agent of Change]

Ngamok, on 07 May 2014 - 11:51 AM, said:

A small light sitting off in the distance pegging you with twin CERPPCs doesn't die fast. Much like some of the lights do now with twin PPC / ERPPC and ERLL.

I take your point, but the fact remains that locking Clan lights into (lets be honest) stupidly small engines severely limits thier functionality to the point you have to ask why even bother.

[Lostdragon]

Ngamok, on 07 May 2014 - 11:51 AM, said:

A small light sitting off in the distance pegging you with twin CERPPCs doesn't die fast. Much like some of the lights do now with twin PPC / ERPPC and ERLL.

They die pretty fast to good countersnipers.

[Ngamok]

Lostdragon, on 07 May 2014 - 12:01 PM, said:

They die pretty fast to good countersnipers.

97 KPH to run in and out of cover is enough to snipe and yes, you are right.

Agent of Change, on 07 May 2014 - 11:55 AM, said:

I take your point, but the fact remains that locking Clan lights into (lets be honest) stupidly small engines severely limits thier functionality to the point you have to ask why even bother.

I agree. But you know the drill, people would complain if they released the Fire Moth and Mist Lynx first saying DOA light mechs too light compared to Jenners and Spiders and Ravens. I'd rather get the 2 heavier ones out first then get in the two lighter ones that can run faster and scout.

[Lostdragon]

When you have clan assaults and heavies able to sling huge frontloaded alphas down range I just don't see how clan lights are going to be able to compete with them in a fire support role, even if they are dramatically better at it than our current IS lights. They will still be fragile and go 2/3 the speed most ligbts run now.

[Khobai]

Quote

It's the only way to keep them balanced,

so the only way to keep them balanced is to make them unusably bad? that makes no sense.

the truth is there ARE other ways to balance them, PGI just hasnt explored any of them.

[FupDup]

Speaking of engine limits, one brainstorm I have is to still allow Omnimechs to swap out their engine rating...but with a much more strict range than IS mechs. This keeps their speed profile close to what their "role" was intended to be, while allowing for some wiggle room in case of really bad stock engines.

My current suggested value would be for the engine limit to be +/- 25 ratings from the stock engine. Example: a Mad Cat comes with an XL375 stock. Its minimum engine would now be 350 and its max engine would be 400.

Edited by FupDup, 07 May 2014 - 12:40 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

Lostdragon, on 07 May 2014 - 12:33 PM, said:

When you have clan assaults and heavies able to sling huge frontloaded alphas down range I just don't see how clan lights are going to be able to compete with them in a fire support role, even if they are dramatically better at it than our current IS lights. They will still be fragile and go 2/3 the speed most ligbts run now.

Clan mechs won't have front loaded damage. They will be the first mechs where ballistics actually work the way they should (burst fire), instead of this stupid 1 slug AC set up we have right now.

The LBXs will actually have alt. fire mode, and I don't think the solid slug will be one slug, probably a burst fire shot of several slugs totaling up to whatever the gauge of the LBX is.

The only weapons that have "front loaded damage" potential are energy weapons and missiles.

Khobai, on 07 May 2014 - 12:37 PM, said:

so the only way to keep them balanced is to make them unusably bad? that makes no sense.

the truth is there ARE other ways to balance them, PGI just hasnt explored any of them.

They aren't going to be bad, and if you say there are other ways, then step up to the plate and deliver. What other ways did you have in mind?

FupDup, on 07 May 2014 - 12:40 PM, said:

Speaking of engine limits, one brainstorm I have is to still allow Omnimechs to swap out their engine rating...but with a much more strict range than IS mechs. This keeps their speed profile close to what their "role" was intended to be, while allowing for some wiggle room in case of really bad stock engines.

My current suggested value would be for the engine limit to be +/- 25 ratings from the stock engine. Example: a Mad Cat comes with an XL375 stock. Its minimum engine would now be 350 and its max engine would be 400.

That's an interesting idea, and I think it could work even with the way the clans are flavored now.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 07 May 2014 - 12:41 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Clan mechs won't have front loaded damage

yeah tell my Daishi with 2 gauss, 2cerppc, and 4erml that when youre taking 60 point alphas to the face. clan mechs will not only have FLD but theyll have more FLD than this game has ever seen before. autocannons may not do FLD, but other weapons will, and those are the weapons players will use. Because FLD > spread damage.

Quote

They aren't going to be bad, and if you say there are other ways, then step up to the plate and deliver. What other ways did you have in mind?

since theyre doing weight matchmaking in addition to 3/3/3/3 they couldve made the clan mechs count as being 10 tons heavier for matchmaking purposes. that would offset them being better by giving the other team extra tonnage.

Quote

Speaking of engine limits, one brainstorm I have is to still allow Omnimechs to swap out their engine rating...but with a much more strict range than IS mechs.

Which still doesnt help unless clan lights can go at least 140kph, thats when the magic happens. Light mechs that cant hit the speed threshold that makes them difficult to hit (140kph or faster) might as well just not be in the game.

Edited by Khobai, 07 May 2014 - 12:57 PM.

[Lostdragon]

IraqiWalker, on 07 May 2014 - 12:40 PM, said:

Clan mechs won't have front loaded damage. They will be the first mechs where ballistics actually work the way they should (burst fire), instead of this stupid 1 slug AC set up we have right now.

The LBXs will actually have alt. fire mode, and I don't think the solid slug will be one slug, probably a burst fire shot of several slugs totaling up to whatever the gauge of the LBX is.

The only weapons that have "front loaded damage" potential are energy weapons and missiles.

If CERPPCs keep their 15 damage value a pair of them alone does 30 damage, which is equivalent to a lot of current meta mechs. Even with clan UACs firing in streams you can boat several of them with a couple of CERPPCs and hit 40+ FLD from the PPC lightning and the first salvo of AC rounds. My feeling is that the AC rounds will likely fire pretty quickly, such that the first and second rounds are likely to hit very close together before the target is able to twist and start spreading damage from subsequent rounds, but even if that is not the case then 2 PPCs + 4 AC10 rounds (guessing it will fire 5 projectiles at 2 dmg each) would be 38 damage right off the bat plus 32 more damage coming down the pipe from the ACs.

If it is possible to fire three CERPPCs even once without shutting down then the situation becomes more dire. As long as there is perfect convergence then there will be the potential for huge FLD alphas unless every weapon becomes hit scan or something.

Edited by Lostdragon, 07 May 2014 - 01:03 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

Khobai, on 07 May 2014 - 12:52 PM, said:

yeah tell my Daishi with 2 gauss, 2cerppc, and 4erml that when youre taking 60 point alphas to the face. clan mechs will not only have FLD but theyll have more FLD than this game has ever seen before. autocannons may not do FLD, but other weapons will, and those are the weapons players will use. Because FLD > spread damage.

I would be impressed if you could fit all of that into the daishi, and have any armor left to speak of (2xGauss = 28 tons +2 CERPPCs =12 tons +4ERMLs = 2-4 tons, totaling at 42-44 tons out of the 55 you have left for armor, ammo, and DHS. I'm still not sure if the 20 DHS don't count towards this or not, let alone the slots, you've got 7 FF slots you can't move, and 7 Endosteel slots you can't move too.)

Khobai, on 07 May 2014 - 12:52 PM, said:

since theyre doing weight matchmaking in addition to 3/3/3/3 they couldve made the clan mechs count as being 10 tons heavier for matchmaking purposes. that would offset them being better by giving the other team extra tonnage.

Extra tonnage doesn't mean a thing when I can still kill you before you can mount any real resistance. Even now, with how "weak" you're describing the Clan lights, they'll still hold a decent edge, and have at least a 50/50 shot, same with 10 v 12 as well.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 07 May 2014 - 12:52 PM, said:

Which still doesnt help unless clan lights can go at least 140kph, thats when the magic happens. Light mechs that cant hit the speed threshold that makes them difficult to hit (140kph or faster) might as well just not be in the game.

The +/- 25 was just an example number, mind you. The final product could be a little bit higher or lower depending on how tests pan out. Maybe +/- 30 or 35? Maybe have it per weight class (more lenient towards the lighter mechs for obvious reasons)?

I completely get that being a really slow light can be and usually is a liability. I grinded out the Ravens 2X and 4X (before the engine cap raise!), and my memories of the experience are very painful. However, I'm also trying to maintain the "flavor" of these mechs while trying to reduce the magnitude of their speed weakness.

The values I gave earlier would put the Puma and Uller somewhere between IS lights and IS mediums in terms of speed, which seems alright. Having them go totally IS light speed ruins their individuality, while restricting them to IS medium speed means that they'll probably have a bad time. My suggestion aims to find a "happy middleground" between both of these extremes.

Edited by FupDup, 07 May 2014 - 01:11 PM.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

IraqiWalker, on 07 May 2014 - 01:04 PM, said:

I would be impressed if you could fit all of that into the daishi, and have any armor left to speak of (2xGauss = 28 tons +2 CERPPCs =12 tons +4ERMLs = 2-4 tons, totaling at 42-44 tons out of the 55 you have left for armor, ammo, and DHS. I'm still not sure if the 20 DHS don't count towards this or not, let alone the slots, you've got 7 FF slots you can't move, and 7 Endosteel slots you can't move too.)

The Dire Wolf has 50.5 tons available for equipment. The prime has 22 DHS but not all of those are hardwired. I dont have the info in front of me but I think 15 of them are hardwired. It does not use ferro or endo.

Edited by Rouken, 07 May 2014 - 01:16 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

I would be impressed if you could fit all of that into the daishi

Easily. Daishi has 50.5 tons of pod space left after the armor and engine are added.

clan gauss are 12 tons. clan erppcs are 6 tons. clan erml are 1 ton each. thats only 40 tons of its 50.5 tons. plenty left for ammo and heatsinks.

[IraqiWalker]

I think the biggest problem is that people think slow lights are bad. Without actually understanding what those lights are supposed to do.

Take the Raven 4X for example. People consider it a bad light mech, while in fact, it is hands down, one of the best satellites in the entire game. You don't try to go fast in it. You strap an AC20 to it and stick behind a bigger mech. Whatever they hit, you add 20 damage to it. A nasty light comes weaving in trying to sow some chaos, plug that speedy twerp with an AC 20 round ... well, anywhere, it's a light, an AC 20 shot is like a death sentence to them.

The Raven 2X, is a great escort mech, strap 4 energy weapons on it, with a decent amount of DHS and an okay engine and you've got a good light chaser and escort. Whatever tries to mess with the main formation, zap it with a few shots and it'll go away.

Many think these roles and styles don't apply when Pugging and dropping solo. They are absolutely mistaken. They are even more important then, when every one is going for the "every man for himself" mentality, and they get annihilated by premades. That's because premades work together. Even two players working together can be a force on the field. So, do that. You don't need to be on VOIP to work together, find your team's Tank mech, and stick behind them. Whatever they hit, help them with it.

When running around in an adder or uller, rely on your friendlies to absorb the hits while you support them from 800+ meters.

Once you understand how roles work. you'll understand why each mech is viable in it's own way.

Rouken, on 07 May 2014 - 01:15 PM, said:

The Dire Wolf has 50.5 tons available for equipment. The prime has 22 DHS but not all of those are hardwired. I dont have the info in front of me but I think 15 of them are hardwired. It does not use ferro or endo.

20 are hardwired, and I was operating from an old post that stated all clan mechs will have endo and ferro. My mistake I guess. However, max armor for it is about 20 tons (19.2 I think) so you'll have to operate with around stock armor or so.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 07 May 2014 - 01:21 PM.